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Post by monkumonku on Dec 16, 2010 11:53:08 GMT -5
A DAC is not a preamp. I've owned several DACs with gain controls on them and I would never think about using one as a preamp. The gain control should be used to match the output level to the input level of the preamp, IMo at least. I think the error Emotiva made here was promoting the XDA-1 as a replacement for a preamp. I think that was a silly thing to do. It seems like the real "mistake" Emo made was to market the product as suitable for a preamp. Had they not done this, some folks would have tried it as a preamp, after which some would find it worked that way and would post on the lounge, "hey, the XDA-1 does double duty as a preamp!" Then others would try it and it wouldn't work well for them because of the volume control issues. But regardless, the response to both groups would have been that "this is a DAC, not a preamp, so if you want to use it as a preamp do so at your own risk. YMMV." |
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Post by Poodleluvr on Dec 16, 2010 12:05:42 GMT -5
A DAC is not a preamp. I've owned several DACs with gain controls on them and I would never think about using one as a preamp. The gain control should be used to match the output level to the input level of the preamp, IMo at least. I think the error Emotiva made here was promoting the XDA-1 as a replacement for a preamp. I think that was a silly thing to do. First, I concur with the logic of DYohn.... Furthermore, like it or not, I truly appreciate today's response from Mr. Lonnie on behalf of Emotiva Audio Corporation---much appreciated! |
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Post by Chuck Elliot on Dec 16, 2010 12:19:58 GMT -5
Lonnie,
Respectfully, I would like to make one last statement regarding this subject and then it is closed for me.
We may perhaps have a different view on what is a flaw or an issue.
Yes, in all other regards the XDA-1 is a wonderful unit. The sound quality is great and the price is excellent.
But, the XDA-1 does not meet the specification that was published prior to its release of a 0.5 dB step volume control (since modified on the product page). And, it was this specification and your comments about how wonderful it sounded using it directly to our power amps that drove many of us to purchase it.
Given the above and that no product I know of has a linear taper volume control, what is the correct word to use in describing this “issue”?
Lastly, thank you Lonnie for responding directly to this even if we disagree somewhat on definitions. I am sure that Emotiva will make it right in the end.
Chuck Elliot
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mrla
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Post by mrla on Dec 16, 2010 12:34:39 GMT -5
Gentle folk, I received a heads up about a few who would like a response from the company so I thought I would jump in here. First let me say I haven’t read through the entire thread yet, but do plan to as time permits. From what I have read there are some very vocal people who are passionate about the subject as it pertains to the volume control implementation on the XDA-1. At present we are testing a unit that we have changed the code in to give a log response for the output. But testing is not completed and as such I honestly don’t have any revelations to offer. When we have completed our test and are happy with the operation, then I plan to make a formal response. Now to address some of the things that have been brought up. Q. If the implementation works well what will be needed for those who wish to have theirs changed?
A. The unit will need to be sent to us for re-programming.Q. What if I am out of the country? A. Can’t answer that question at this time because we haven’t even decided on the course of action yet. But we will come up with a way to service our international customers. Q. Will the 30 day audition period be extended? A. At this point I would say no. The reason I say this is simply because we haven’t finished testing and have not decided what course of action we want to take. We may decide to extend it, but nothing has been discussed so far. As with any open forum the speculation and assumptions are running wild, but I do want to state that we are looking into this and as always, we do listen to our customers. There is one thing I do want to address though. There are those who persist in stating the unit is flawed and therefore has an “issue” and will argue this point ad infinitum. I would like to state that the unit is not flawed. The volume control works flawlessly. Whether or not its implementation works in a way you desire or works for your particular situation is a different subject, but the fact remains the system works. There are no glitches, no snaps, no pops, no little ticks, it just works. So for those who are demanding an acknowledgement that there is something wrong, sorry. In closing I would like to say that we are looking into this and as we move forward, we will certainly let you know. Lonnie firstly, lonnie, thanks for giving us this info...really appreciated (even a bit late) secondly, if one decides to send it back for reprogramming to get 'log' volume...who is paying for shipping back and forth? |
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Post by ajani on Dec 16, 2010 12:49:48 GMT -5
Gentle folk, I received a heads up about a few who would like a response from the company so I thought I would jump in here. First let me say I haven’t read through the entire thread yet, but do plan to as time permits. From what I have read there are some very vocal people who are passionate about the subject as it pertains to the volume control implementation on the XDA-1. At present we are testing a unit that we have changed the code in to give a log response for the output. But testing is not completed and as such I honestly don’t have any revelations to offer. When we have completed our test and are happy with the operation, then I plan to make a formal response. Now to address some of the things that have been brought up. Q. If the implementation works well what will be needed for those who wish to have theirs changed? A. The unit will need to be sent to us for re-programming. Q. What if I am out of the country? A. Can’t answer that question at this time because we haven’t even decided on the course of action yet. But we will come up with a way to service our international customers. Q. Will the 30 day audition period be extended? A. At this point I would say no. The reason I say this is simply because we haven’t finished testing and have not decided what course of action we want to take. We may decide to extend it, but nothing has been discussed so far. As with any open forum the speculation and assumptions are running wild, but I do want to state that we are looking into this and as always, we do listen to our customers. There is one thing I do want to address though. There are those who persist in stating the unit is flawed and therefore has an “issue” and will argue this point ad infinitum. I would like to state that the unit is not flawed. The volume control works flawlessly. Whether or not its implementation works in a way you desire or works for your particular situation is a different subject, but the fact remains the system works. There are no glitches, no snaps, no pops, no little ticks, it just works. So for those who are demanding an acknowledgement that there is something wrong, sorry. In closing I would like to say that we are looking into this and as we move forward, we will certainly let you know. Lonnie Thanks for providing us with an official response... It was certainly needed. Now to address some of the salient points: 1) There is currently no extension of the trial period - So this means that all of us purchasers who are unsatisfied with the volume, will need to strongly consider returning it near the end of the 30 days, if a solution is not available by then. 2) Emotiva does not regard the volume issue as a flaw. Unless a linear volume implementation is either common in the industry or provides an improvement over a logarithmic one, then I fail to see how it is not a flaw - I find the stance that it is not a flaw to be troubling as it means that the decisions of whether to fix the volume, to charge for the fix and also who pays the shipping costs will be totally at Emotiva's discretion... We should also consider that the volume problem does not appear to be just for a few persons. If we look at the poll being run in the other thread: emotivalounge.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=preampdac&action=display&thread=15184We can see that out of 42 persons who use the XDA as preamp direct to a power amp, 32 have a problem with the volume control. So 76% of those users are having a problem... I would say that is pretty significant. Also of note is that since many of us purchased the unit based on the advertising that it had 0.5db adjustments (logarithmic) then the fact that we received a linear volume is bait and switch... |
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Post by monkumonku on Dec 16, 2010 12:52:35 GMT -5
Thanks for providing us with an official response... It was certainly needed. Now to address some of the salient points: 2) Emotiva does not regard the volume issue as a flaw. Unless a linear volume implementation is either common in the industry or provides an improvement over a logarithmic one, then I fail to see how it is not a flaw - I find the stance that it is no a flaw to be troubling as it means that the decisions of whether to fix the volume, to charge for the fix and also who pays the shipping costs will be totally at Emotiva's discretion... But isn't it always at the manufacturer's discretion? |
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Post by ajani on Dec 16, 2010 12:54:58 GMT -5
Thanks for providing us with an official response... It was certainly needed. Now to address some of the salient points: 2) Emotiva does not regard the volume issue as a flaw. Unless a linear volume implementation is either common in the industry or provides an improvement over a logarithmic one, then I fail to see how it is not a flaw - I find the stance that it is no a flaw to be troubling as it means that the decisions of whether to fix the volume, to charge for the fix and also who pays the shipping costs will be totally at Emotiva's discretion... But isn't it always at the manufacturer's discretion? Not exactly... If you acknowledge that there is an error then you accept some amount of liability for the product... so the option would be to fix it or refund the consumer's money... if you don't acknowledge it, then you don't have to do anything... |
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warp
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Post by warp on Dec 16, 2010 13:26:20 GMT -5
I also use the XDA-1 balanced with the XPA-1 and B & W 683 which is 91dB. Late nights i can´t run this configuration! 0.5 is too high volume! Tried my spl-meter at sweetspot 3 meters away!! Of course it depends on the music but with pink noise 100 hz 0.5 - 67db 1.0 - 72db 1.5 - 76db 2.0 - 79db 2.5 - 83 db When i played music it showed up that the pink noise recording was a bit lower than my most common favorite cd´s! Some cd recordings starts at 71db in the 0.5 setting!! At 2.5 i have 86db! |
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Post by sharkman on Dec 16, 2010 13:35:13 GMT -5
Warp, I did the same thing, and I have similar measured results, but I start off at 60 db with the volume set at .5! I don't see how this can be considered normal.
My set up is ERC - coax - XDA - RCA - XPA3 amp - Paradigm Signature S6.
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mrla
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Post by mrla on Dec 16, 2010 13:37:00 GMT -5
I also run my xda-1 via XLR cables to my NHT xdA amp...
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Post by srb on Dec 16, 2010 13:37:39 GMT -5
We can see that out of 42 persons who use the XDA as preamp direct to a power amp, 32 have a problem with the volume control. So 76% of those users are having a problem... I would say that is pretty significant. Also of note is that since many of us purchased the unit based on the advertising that it had 0.5db adjustments (logarithmic) then the fact that we received a linear volume is bait and switch... I agree. Because this is the thread where manufacturer responsibility/resolution is being discussed, I also just want to briefly address the other main issue from another thread - USB input resolution. Before ordering, I was told over the phone that the USB input would support 24/192, and the website specifications said nothing to indicate that the USB resolution would be limited as opposed to the other inputs. Although I was actually a little skeptical, because I knew that there were many DACs out there that could do 24/96 through USB, I was prepared to be satisfied if 24/96 was the highest I could get. I have thoroughly tested and verified this, and the USB input is limited to 16/48. Anyone who says they are getting higher resolution files to play through the USB input are either using a player or driver that is being downsampled by the operating system. Although I don't believe any intentional bait and switch exists, for these reasons this product did not deliver as promised through no fault of my own or because of any subjective dissatisfaction with the product, and I would therefore expect Emotiva to cover return shipping. Steve |
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Post by UT-Driven on Dec 16, 2010 13:52:01 GMT -5
I have to wonder if the USP-1 has a linear volume control also. You don't get much use out of the volume control before it gets really loud.
Doug
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Post by rixtergonzo on Dec 16, 2010 13:53:23 GMT -5
We can see that out of 42 persons who use the XDA as preamp direct to a power amp, 32 have a problem with the volume control. So 76% of those users are having a problem... I would say that is pretty significant. Also of note is that since many of us purchased the unit based on the advertising that it had 0.5db adjustments (logarithmic) then the fact that we received a linear volume is bait and switch... I agree. Because this is the thread where manufacturer responsibility/resolution is being discussed, I also just want to briefly address the other main issue from another thread - USB input resolution. Before ordering, I was told over the phone that the USB input would support 24/192, and the website specifications said nothing to indicate that the USB resolution would be limited as opposed to the other inputs. Although I was actually a little skeptical, because I knew that there were many DACs out there that could do 24/96 through USB, I was prepared to be satisfied if 24/96 was the highest I could get. I have thoroughly tested and verified this, and the USB input is limited to 16/48. Anyone who says they are getting higher resolution files to play through the USB input are either using a player or driver that is being downsampled by the operating system. Although I don't believe any intentional bait and switch exists, for these reasons this product did not deliver as promised through no fault of my own or because of any subjective dissatisfaction with the product, and I would therefore expect Emotiva to cover return shipping. Steve I specifically bought the XDA-1 with the intention of playing higher than 16/48 via USB (as stated by Emotiva to be able to do) and would accept at minimum 24/96 to be a keeper (not able to as of yet). So if I do return then I too would like my return shipping to be covered by Emotiva. |
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Post by monkumonku on Dec 16, 2010 13:55:35 GMT -5
I have to wonder if the USP-1 has a linear volume control also. You don't get much use out of the volume control before it gets really loud. Doug I can't go past 10:00 without it being way too loud. |
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cawgijoe
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Post by cawgijoe on Dec 16, 2010 14:00:48 GMT -5
Can we leave the USP-1 out of this thread?
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cawgijoe
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Post by cawgijoe on Dec 16, 2010 14:04:21 GMT -5
We can see that out of 42 persons who use the XDA as preamp direct to a power amp, 32 have a problem with the volume control. So 76% of those users are having a problem... I would say that is pretty significant. Also of note is that since many of us purchased the unit based on the advertising that it had 0.5db adjustments (logarithmic) then the fact that we received a linear volume is bait and switch... I agree. Because this is the thread where manufacturer responsibility/resolution is being discussed, I also just want to briefly address the other main issue from another thread - USB input resolution. Before ordering, I was told over the phone that the USB input would support 24/192, and the website specifications said nothing to indicate that the USB resolution would be limited as opposed to the other inputs. Although I was actually a little skeptical, because I knew that there were many DACs out there that could do 24/96 through USB, I was prepared to be satisfied if 24/96 was the highest I could get. I have thoroughly tested and verified this, and the USB input is limited to 16/48. Anyone who says they are getting higher resolution files to play through the USB input are either using a player or driver that is being downsampled by the operating system. Although I don't believe any intentional bait and switch exists, for these reasons this product did not deliver as promised through no fault of my own or because of any subjective dissatisfaction with the product, and I would therefore expect Emotiva to cover return shipping. Steve Steve, I'm curious as to how you came up with your findings. I have not yet used the USB.....actually won't use the XDA-1 till Christmas........what did you do to verify? Thanks |
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Post by ajani on Dec 16, 2010 14:06:53 GMT -5
Can we leave the USP-1 out of this thread? I agree... The USP 1 only distracts from the purpose of this thread; to discuss the XDA-1 volume problem |
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DYohn
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Post by DYohn on Dec 16, 2010 14:07:57 GMT -5
I have to wonder if the USP-1 has a linear volume control also. You don't get much use out of the volume control before it gets really loud. Doug I can't go past 10:00 without it being way too loud. After 10 o'clock many things get too loud, at least in the house when people are going to bed.  |
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Post by srb on Dec 16, 2010 14:42:43 GMT -5
I'm curious as to how you came up with your findings. I have not yet used the USB.....actually won't use the XDA-1 till Christmas........what did you do to verify? I have tried to explain this in more detail in several posts in other threads, but basically in a nutshell ..... If you use iTunes, Media Player or Media Center, these players do not have the capability to use third-party sound drivers that can bypass the internal Windows sound mixer. The Windows mixer downsamples them, and all resolution files will "play". If you use J. River Media Center or foobar2000 (or other advanced media players), these players support the use of third-party sound drivers that do bypass the Windows mixer, such as ASIO and WASAPI (introduced with Windows Vista). When these drivers are selected and you attempt to play 24 bit files, they all return errors saying that the hardware does not support the file format or data stream. As far as the XDA-1 automatically-downloaded USB driver, if you inspect the device's properties, you will see that the only two choices for file format are 16/44.1 and 16/48. Steve |
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DYohn
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Post by DYohn on Dec 16, 2010 14:44:10 GMT -5
Can we leave the USP-1 out of this thread? I agree... The USP 1 only distracts from the purpose of this thread; to discuss the XDA-1 volume problem Which, to paraphrase Lonnie, is not a technical problem with the XDA-1, it is a usage problem for those choosing to use it in a certain way. |
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