Denon 4311ci vs Onkyo 5008

[NorthStar]

Jan 25, 2011 20:03:19 GMT -5 @n8dogg said:

My brother in law just got the new yamaha RX-A3000. I'm actually very impressed with it. The build quality is really nice, we hooked it up to his psb golds and we jamming withing a few minutes. Tons of options. I am very impressed. I wanted to pop the cover off and take a look but he wouldn't let me lol.

[NorthStar]

Jan 25, 2011 21:08:08 GMT -5 ntrain42 said:

Jan 25, 2011 18:59:52 GMT -5 NorthStar said:

My God, stop this right now mister!

A S/N ratio of 95 dB or one of 115 dB ain't a huge difference at all in absoulte listening term!
Look at Arcam receivers, they have the lowest S/N figures (95 dB) but yet they sound the very best!
There is much more to sound quality than just the S/N ratio my friend!

You want sound quality with Audio (Music)? ...Get the UMC-1 at the incredible price of just $699 then!
Add the XPA-5 to it and you're laughing big time way up to the bank and the bang!

I rest my case!

* TIP: Listen at very low volume level to any new product you audition; and if they sound dynamic, open, detailed, without any restrain, then you just found what you're looking for (good for micro and macro dynamics, equally at low and high volume listening levels).
=> AND DON'T FORGET YOUR SPEAKERS INTO THE EQUATION!

~ Yeah I know what's your worry; the high sensitivity of your Klipsch speakers right?
Do you really think that between 106 dB and 112 dB S/N figures ratio you'll be able to hear a difference with them?
THINK AGAIN!

If you truly are after the best, then get a separate pre/pro with a S/N ratio figure of over 120 dB. ...Cary, Denon pre/pro for $7,500, Anthem, ...

A 20db variance is enough to jack that noisefloor up significantly. And remember, you gotta add in all the components together to get your actual at the speaker signal to noise ratio. You can't just look at one component.

PS: Ill pass on Arcam.

You got it Ntrain; you also have to look at the S/N ratio of the amplifier section, not just the preamp one.
...And also your speakers and your sources as well. It's the sum of ALL your components!
...Just like you said it very well yourself!

* As for Arcam, I'm with ya too!

[thomasd92]

I have the Denon 4311 . The reason I bought the 4311 is because it can do 11.2 and the Onkyo cannot , it can only do 9.2. If you want DSX32 11.2 the Denon 4311 is the one to get. i wanted to try 11.2 and now that I have I will never go back to 7.1.I run my 4311 in pre-amp mode with an XPA-5 and a UPA-7 for amps with an Epic tower sub in front of my room and 2 SVS 20-39 passive columns running as one sub from a Samson amp in the back of my room. The Denon 4311 can calibrate 2 subs independently. For 2 channel I use the USP-1 in my setup and I am waiting for the XPS-1 to try .

[hammmerhead]

Jan 25, 2011 18:59:52 GMT -5 NorthStar said:

Jan 25, 2011 11:56:25 GMT -5 hammmerhead said:

HT's bench test shows these numbers for the 2311 review The signal-to-noise ratio with an 8-ohm load from 10 hertz to 24 kHz with “A” weighting was –112.12 dBrA. If this number is way off, then all the reviews including the Onk 5008 must be way off as well.
Here is what they had for the Onk 5008 The signal-to-noise ratio with an 8-ohm load from 10 Hz to 24 kHz with “A” weighting was –106.30 dBrA.


You know, I probably shouldnt be as picky when it comes to these things, but I dont buy new equipment often. The only reason I am upgrading now is because I really have to. I know in my opinion Denon seems to be coasting in some of the areas but not in the sound quality area.



Yeah this is pretty crappy, but it seems like its popping up more and more as they try and cram too many channels in a receiver. What irks me is that if you have a constant source such as a stereo audio track and are feeding it to 5 channels or more all you are going to get is around 79 watts per channel RMS at .10% THD.

My issue is that Im probably 80% Audio and 20% HT. What matters to me more is clarity and sonics for music. I know I am being critical with the numbers produced inside the box, frankly because they dont lie. I am looking forward to seeing what numbers the 4311 offers. I pretty much know what all the numbers will be on the pre/amp side of things. It would be nice to see a solid 110+ watts X 5 and possibly 100 X 7, but I think I may be too optimistic to get that.

My God, stop this right now mister!

A S/N ratio of 95 dB or one of 115 dB ain't a huge difference at all in absoulte listening term!
Look at Arcam receivers, they have the lowest S/N figures (95 dB) but yet they sound the very best!
There is much more to sound quality than just the S/N ratio my friend!

You want sound quality with Audio (Music)? ...Get the UMC-1 at the incredible price of just $699 then!
Add the XPA-5 to it and you're laughing big time way up to the bank and the bang!

I rest my case!

* TIP: Listen at very low volume level to any new product you audition; and if they sound dynamic, open, detailed, without any restrain, then you just found what you're looking for (good for micro and macro dynamics, equally at low and high volume listening levels).
=> AND DON'T FORGET YOUR SPEAKERS INTO THE EQUATION!

~ Yeah I know what's your worry; the high sensitivity of your Klipsch speakers right?
Do you really think that between 106 dB and 112 dB S/N figures ratio you'll be able to hear a difference with them?
THINK AGAIN!

If you truly are after the best, then get a separate pre/pro with a S/N ratio figure of over 120 dB. ...Cary, Denon pre/pro for $7,500, Anthem, ...

Ok, OK. Easy now. I dont mean to draw the brand sensitivity out of current owners here, Im just hashing numbers. Having said that, better numbers are just that, "better numbers". Whether its a dampening factor, a THD rating or even a "meaningless" SNR ratio Yeah, maybe my ears cant hear the difference in a few of these receivers noted, but hey, I can still shoot for the best audio output for the buck. If I had a little more dough I would look at some nice separates immediately, but that is not happening. Dont worry TLOTR the Onkyo is ahead of the pack at this moment.

[NorthStar]

Better be! ;D

[NorthStar]

* Denon AVR-4311CI receiver (Inside):



____________________________________

* Onkyo TX-NR5008 receiver (Inside):



____________________________________

~ Batpig, over from AVS Forum, commenting from his own personal opinion between the Denon AVR-4311CI receiver and the Onkyo TX-NR3008 receiver (and not the 5008):

@ www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showpost.php?p=19894707&postcount=6772

>>> But he forgot few important points:

1. Omitted to mention the much better and elaborated (ISF certified) video parameter adjustments that the HQV VX-50 video processor provides in the Onkyo receiver.

2. Omitted to mention the street price difference between the 4311 and the 3008 right now; which is about $800! The 3008 is the one that cost much less! Much better VALUE!
{Even the TX-NR5008 cost less than the AVR-4311CI right now!}

3. Put too much of a greater emphasis on the Denon's GUI; which has nothing to do with Sound Quality and True Power, and Overall Performance.

4. He prefers 35 pounds receivers over 55 pounds ones! I'm just the opposite! ...And for the right reasons!

5. He mentioned the Onkyo running hotter; he doesn't know how to reduce the heat by a few simple adjustments (to reduce overall consumption, CEC feature, and run the video processor much cooler)!
...And after you do, the Onkyo is very slightly warmer, not to be concern at all!

6. He's a huge Denon's fan (like I also used to be myself), and knows more about Denon receivers than any other brands.
Not me! I know enough about ALL the brands to make a fair assessment between ALL of them!
{By the way, I bought tons of Denon products in the past starting from the mid 80s; that's over 25 years of concrete knowledge and dealing with Denon's products! And that includes Amps, A/V Receivers, Universal DVD players, CD players, etc. My two last Denon purchases were the AVR-3805 (2005) receiver and the DVD-3930CI (2008) Universal DVD player.}

7. It don't matter if the Denon receiver has more Audio adjustments if the Surround modes are inferior! And the DSP surround modes in the Denons sucks!

8. He doesn't elaborate at all on the THX certification for the pre/pro section as well the amp section! There are a lot of tests that were performed to get that THX Ultra2 Plus certification!

9. The parts quality is different: AKM AK4358 (two X 8-channel DACS) in the 4311 versus TI Burr-Brown PCM-1796 DACs (six X 2-channel Stereo DACs) in the 3008 (the 5008 has the B-B PCM-1795, 32-bit/192 Khz DACs, also six of them). So better and more expensive DACs in the Onkyos! ...And I'm very familar with those DACs as implemented in these receivers! My ears can tell where the emphasis is! I'm a real sucker for DACs and their overall implementation with the other circuitry parts! And so are my ears too!
*** And Onkyo has a unique way to use them when in digital Stereo audio mode.
...And the caps are 15,000 uF (I believe), and 71 Volts rating in the Denon AVR-4311CI.
And 18,000 uF (75 Volts) in the Onkyo TX-NR3008.
And 22,000 uF (75 Volts) in the Onkyo TX-NR5008 (with a main toroidal transformer).

10. The overall power supply in the 3008 (4 transformers all together) and much bigger power transistors with very high current capability, plus the heatsink's total surface area and quality put the 4311 to shame in a $2,000 receiver!
{The 4th transformer on the 3008, and also in the 5008, is a very small one in the left rear for the audio analog circuit board.}

11. The Onkyo has 3 DSP chips (Tesax Instruments Aureus); the Denon has only 2 (Analog Devices Sharc)!

12. With tougher speakers to drive and a bigger room, the Denon needs external amplification! ...Not with the Onkyo!

13. Both of these receivers sound different (in particular without Audyssey)!
The Denon is more laid back in it's overall sound, reserved, with less definition in the bass!
The Onkyo is more open, clear, with tighter bas, and simply more exciting overall!
[But they both sound smooth and pleasant.]

14. The Onkyo is much easier to operate from someone without much experience in the latest receivers. The Menus are simpler and much more intuitive, making the Ergonomics a real delight! And they are not as deep and complicated as in the Denon!

15. The Onkyo remote control is ahead of the Denon's one on its overall simplicity of operation!
[But Denon finally gave up that horrific membrane remote control of last year!]

16. The power consumption rating of the 4311 is 8.1 amps (780 watts).
In the 3008 it's 11.6 amps.
And in the 5008 it's 12.8 amps!
And the Onkyo's have tremendous power reserves in the total high current Amps that they can deliver!

17. I much prefer the rear a$$ of the Onkyos than the Denons!

18. I'm not sure if the 4311's front face is made of plastic or not!

19. On the Onkyo, the front face and the drop door are 100% aluminum!

20. The difference in weight is about 20 pounds (net)! ...Without the manuals, remotes, batteries, mics, antennas, and whatever else Denon likes to put to add more weight in the specs of its receivers!

21. On the rear of the 3008, the Phono and CD jacks are machine brass and gold plated (large and solid jacks)!
On the 5008 ALL jacks are gold plated.
On the 4311 they aren't! (Only in the $500 more Sp.Ed. AVR-A100).

22. Onkyo uses a much better Phono preamp section!

23. Even the Headphone amp section is good in the Onkyo!

24. Low Impedance drive (4 Ohms) guaranteed with the Onkyo!

25. Onkyo's Instruction Manual is much better to understand than the Denon's manual!

26. Onkyo's website has a cool 360 degree view of its receivers with the internals!

27. Onkyo give you the opportunity to make some Onkyo dollars!

* ...I'm sure I did forget other points (there are so many...), but you get my main point!

Cheers to all,
Bob

P.S. I just luv it! ;D

[Erwin.BE]

Jan 26, 2011 7:03:21 GMT -5 thomasd92 said:

I have the Denon 4311 . The reason I bought the 4311 is because it can do 11.2 and the Onkyo cannot , it can only do 9.2. If you want DSX32 11.2 the Denon 4311 is the one to get. i wanted to try 11.2 and now that I have I will never go back to 7.1.I run my 4311 in pre-amp mode with an XPA-5 and a UPA-7 for amps with an Epic tower sub in front of my room and 2 SVS 20-39 passive columns running as one sub from a Samson amp in the back of my room. The Denon 4311 can calibrate 2 subs independently. For 2 channel I use the USP-1 in my setup and I am waiting for the XPS-1 to try .

Did you post pictures of you room and setup? Please do!
My current state of mind for the HT is to use the XPR-7 for the 7 big speakers that have 4 drivers (incl 2 big woofers each) and a XPA-5 for the other 4 speakers, which are only 2-way.

@lotr:
Bob,
Does this mean you prefer the Onkyo?
;D

[NorthStar]

Jan 27, 2011 4:49:29 GMT -5 Erwin.BE said:

Jan 26, 2011 7:03:21 GMT -5 thomasd92 said:

I have the Denon 4311 . The reason I bought the 4311 is because it can do 11.2 and the Onkyo cannot , it can only do 9.2. If you want DSX32 11.2 the Denon 4311 is the one to get. i wanted to try 11.2 and now that I have I will never go back to 7.1.I run my 4311 in pre-amp mode with an XPA-5 and a UPA-7 for amps with an Epic tower sub in front of my room and 2 SVS 20-39 passive columns running as one sub from a Samson amp in the back of my room. The Denon 4311 can calibrate 2 subs independently. For 2 channel I use the USP-1 in my setup and I am waiting for the XPS-1 to try .

Did you post pictures of you room and setup? Please do!
My current state of mind for the HT is to use the XPR-7 for the 7 big speakers that have 4 drivers (incl 2 big woofers each) and a XPA-5 for the other 4 speakers, which are only 2-way.

@lotr:
Bob,
Does this mean you prefer the Onkyo?
;D

For now, and between these models, YA! ;D

_____________________________________

* I'm going to venture in saying this though:

The Denon AVR-4311CI receiver now used the AKM DACs (AK4358) as I already mentioned in my above post.
And these DACs do sound different than all the previous DACs that Denon mainly used in the past and which were the TI Burr-Brown PCM-1791 DACs (except in the 5308 with the PCM-1796 DACs)!
And the main difference between the sound of those DACs is that the AKM DACs are much more open and detailed (in general) on top, as opposed to the smoother and laid back sound of the Burr-Brown PCM-1791 DACs!

** Many people over at AVS Forum are mentioning higher extension, brighter highs, even harsh in some cases!
But they're also saying that they hear less bass! Or that the bass is less full!
And normally the AKM DACs are tighter sounding in the bass than the B-B PCM-1791 DACs! The PCM-1791s are more fully blown in the bass, but less tight!
~ This is a newer direction from DENON! ...And my guess is that it has to do with Audyssey MultEQ XT32 (the reason why Denon chose those new DACs)! But maybe not!

I should also mention that these AKM DACs are the 8-channel type (single DAC on a chip), and because the 4311 is an 11.2-channel receiver (13 channels all together), it uses two of these DACs. ...And you do need a separate Stereo amp to run all those channels together at once (11 main channels plus the 2 subs).
{The remaining 3 DACs are NOT used at ALL!}

_____________________________________

The Onkyo TX-NR3008 is a 9.2-channel receiver (11 channels), and it has six DACs (TI Burr-Brown PCM-1796 Stereo DACs).
Well, it does have 13 channels like the Denon 4311, but only 11 of them can be used at one time (9 main channels with the 2 subwoofers).

*** But when in Digital Stereo Audio mode; it does a complex manipulation by directing one Stereo DAC into a 'mixer' and going through the front Left channel, and directs the other Stereo DAC directly to the front Right channel (no 'mixer' involved); so that two single DACs (or one full Stereo DAC) are now incorporated in each of the front Left & Right channel!
But it is NOT a true Differential mode, it is Onkyo's own personal touch!
I really tried to find out more about this very unique way of implementation, and I couldn't find the EXACT reason!
~ But I highly suspect that it has to do with the "Pure Audio" mode in the digital format (between either HDMI or SPDIF digital input).

...I would need to talk to the tech people in Japan or Malaysia!
Or have a tech guru ready to dismantle one of these receivers!

[hammmerhead]

Jan 27, 2011 1:39:24 GMT -5 NorthStar said:

* Denon AVR-4311CI receiver (Inside):



____________________________________

* Onkyo TX-NR5008 receiver (Inside):



____________________________________

~ Batpig, over from AVS Forum, commenting from his own personal opinion between the Denon AVR-4311CI receiver and the Onkyo TX-NR3008 receiver (and not the 5008):

@ www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showpost.php?p=19894707&postcount=6772

>>> But he forgot few important points:

1. Omitted to mention the much better and elaborated (ISF certified) video parameter adjustments that the HQV VX-50 video processor provides in the Onkyo receiver.

2. Omitted to mention the street price difference between the 4311 and the 3008 right now; which is about $800! The 3008 is the one that cost much less! Much better VALUE!
{Even the TX-NR5008 cost less than the AVR-4311CI right now!}

3. Put too much of a greater emphasis on the Denon's GUI; which has nothing to do with Sound Quality and True Power, and Overall Performance.

4. He prefers 35 pounds receivers over 55 pounds ones! I'm just the opposite! ...And for the right reasons!

5. He mentioned the Onkyo running hotter; he doesn't know how to reduce the heat by a few simple adjustments (to reduce overall consumption, CEC feature, and run the video processor much cooler)!
...And after you do, the Onkyo is very slightly warmer, not to be concern at all!

6. He's a huge Denon's fan (like I also used to be myself), and knows more about Denon receivers than any other brands.
Not me! I know enough about ALL the brands to make a fair assessment between ALL of them!

7. It don't matter if the Denon receiver has more Audio adjustments if the Surround modes are inferior! And the DSP surround modes in the Denons sucks!

8. He doesn't elaborate at all on the THX certification for the pre/pro section as well the amp section! There are a lot of tests that were performed to get that THX Ultra2 Plus certification!

9. The parts quality is different: AKM AK4358 (two X 8-channel DACS) in the 4311 versus TI Burr-Brown PCM-1796 DACs (six X 2-channel Stereo DACs) in the 3008 (the 5008 has the B-B PCM-1795, 32-bit/192 Khz DACs, also six of them). So better and more expensive DACs in the Onkyos! ...And I'm very familar with those DACs as implemented in these receivers! My ears can tell where the emphasis is! I'm a real sucker for DACs and their overall implementation with the other circuitry parts! And so are my ears too!
*** And Onkyo has a unique way to use them when in digital Stereo audio mode.
...And the caps are 15,000 uF (I believe), and 71 Volts rating in the Denon AVR-4311CI.
And 18,000 uF (75 Volts) in the Onkyo TX-NR3008.
And 22,000 uF (75 Volts) in the Onkyo TX-NR5008 (with a main toroidal transformer).

10. The overall power supply in the 3008 (4 transformers all together) and much bigger power transistors with very high current capability, plus the heatsink's total surface area and quality put the 4311 to shame in a $2,000 receiver!
{The 4th transformer on the 3008, and also in the 5008, is a very small one in the left rear for the audio analog circuit board.}

11. The Onkyo has 3 DSP chips (Tesax Instruments Aureus); the Denon has only 2 (Analog Devices Sharc)!

12. With tougher speakers to drive and a bigger room, the Denon needs external amplification! ...Not with the Onkyo!

13. Both of these receivers sound different (in particular without Audyssey)!
The Denon is more laid back in it's overall sound, reserved, with less definition in the bass!
The Onkyo is more open, clear, with tighter bas, and simply more exciting overall!
[But they both sound smooth and pleasant.]

14. The Onkyo is much easier to operate from someone without much experience in the latest receivers. The Menus are simpler and much more intuitive, making the Ergonomics a real delight! And they are not as deep and complicated as in the Denon!

15. The Onkyo remote control is ahead of the Denon's one on its overall simplicity of operation!
[But Denon finally gave up that horrific membrane remote control of last year!]

16. The power consumption rating of the 4311 is 8.1 amps (780 watts).
In the 3008 it's 11.6 amps.
And in the 5008 it's 12.8 amps!
And the Onkyo's have tremendous power reserves in the total high current Amps that they can deliver!

17. I much prefer the rear a$$ of the Onkyos than the Denons!

18. I'm not sure if the 4311's front face is made of plastic or not!

19. On the Onkyo, the front face and the drop door are 100% aluminum!

20. The difference in weight is about 20 pounds (net)! ...Without the manuals, remotes, batteries, mics, antennas, and whatever else Denon likes to put to add more weight in the specs of its receivers!

21. On the rear of the 3008, the Phono and CD jacks are machine brass and gold plated (large and solid jacks)!
On the 5008 ALL jacks are gold plated.
On the 4311 they aren't! (Only in the $500 more Sp.Ed. AVR-A100).

22. Onkyo uses a much better Phono preamp section!

23. Even the Headphone amp section is good in the Onkyo!

24. Low Impedance drive (4 Ohms) guaranteed with the Onkyo!

* ...I'm sure I did forget other points (there are so many...), but you get my main point!

Cheers to all,
Bob

P.S. I just luv it! ;D

Dang LOTR. Thanks for all the leg work! Lots of good info here.

[sharkman]

You've got to admit it though, the Onkyos look butt ugly compared with the Denons. They need a face lift like yesterday.

[hammmerhead]

Jan 27, 2011 11:42:26 GMT -5 sharkman said:

You've got to admit it though, the Onkyos look butt ugly compared with the Denons. They need a face lift like yesterday.

The looks of the Onk dont bother me. Tapping the front face of both receivers with your knuckle does though. The new denons remind me of the disposable build of a mid line Sony Receiver. Im dont like the fact that Denon has changed directions in many areas. It seems since Denon and Marantz combined they have been sharing some traits between themselves. The plastic corners on the new Marantz receivers are a total letdown IMO. Maybe its a "green" direction D & M is choosing to take, but Ill take big, bulky, heavy and shielded everytime.

BTW, the really thick aluminum faceplate used to be a selling trait that Denon used to harp on.

[KrellAV]

Jan 25, 2011 3:53:44 GMT -5 NorthStar said:

Jan 24, 2011 20:14:57 GMT -5 @n8dogg said:

Bob, your the choo choo of Onkyo! lol!

Nope, I go with my brains, and from 2007 up to now, Onkyo/Integra is the new leader in the field of pre/pros and receivers overall! Performance/Value/Features/Build Quality/Ergonomics wise. ...And that mister is a fact!

Denon used to be the leader with their 3XXX and 4XXX and 5XXX receivers series (remember their latest ones, the 3805 and 5805?).

Before that Yamaha was big! And Marantz had some pretty nice receivers as well (before they get acquired by Denon Holdings and McIntosh joined the party).

I'm not into one brand more than another one, but I do recognize who's doing the best work year in year out!
...And that right from the late 60s!
I can pretty much tell you all the best receivers and pre/pros in each and every year since 1968 up to now in 2011.
I own several audio magazines from right back then till now!
I probably spent more time reading, evaluating, comparing audio electronics than the vast majority of people in this forum, plus several other audio forums as well!

Is Onkyo perfect? No! But they are still on top compared to other manufacturers, since they introduced their XX5 series in 2007.

So, yes, I will recommend to others what I truly know and believe to be the best overall.
And I always try to read between the lines of each person to find out what they are mostly interested in: Sound Quality, Build Quality that also includes quality parts, Features with Ethernet and all that Jazzzzz, Ergonomics for easy operation and intuitive setup, Best Auto Room Calibration & EQ, and simply Best Overall Value including all of the above versus Price ratio!

For me right now, the best pre/pro Value is the Onkyo PR-SC5508. Then the Integra DHC-80.2.
{Do you guys remember when the PR-SC885P was selling for only $529?}
- Did I mention the UMC-1 at only $699?

For top receiver Value it's the Onkyo TX-NR3008, followed by the TX-NR5008. (The TX-NR3008 is only $1,149 right now, and was $1,115 at one point at Amazon.)
{Do you guys remember when the TX-SR805 was selling for only $449? And as of very recently,
the TX-SR876 for only $699?}

For Multichannel Amps, it's ALL the Emotiva amps!
For Subs, it's the SVSs, Rythmiks, HSUs and some Paradigm ones.

For Loudspeakers, no way I would say one more than another; it is simply too personal. But I do know good value and good design with smooth sound when I see them on my radar though!

Blu-ray players? Tough as they keep comin' and comin'...
CD players? You don't have to spend more than $500 for a great sounding one, the ERC-1 included.

And NEVER, and I mean NEVER buy at MSRP! Except for Emotiva of course; but then they always have great sales too!

I don't shy to say what my beliefs are! But I'm always careful because what for me is good ain't necessarily good for you!
But if you insist I'll do my very best to shoot all I got!

I am extremely flexible, and totally firm in my findings!
Plus I get several great feedbacks from happy people who bought what I recommended to them.

You can call me the Onkyo choo choo if you like for now, but be also aware that I harshly criticised them as well for their despicable Customer Support! And I mean that! Very tough on them! ...And that is fully deserved!

No one is truly bad on our planet (exept the people who kill mercilessly innocent people like the terrorists and suicide bombers without any brains!); and nobody is perfectly good either!

Life is all about BALANCE & INTELLIGENCE; then COMMUNICATION!

P.S. I tought Ntrain was the Onkyo & Rythmik choo choo?
...Maybe he is the main locomotive engine of the freight train, and I'm just the caboose at the other end? ...A bulletproof caboose!

Bob,
I certainly appreciate one's OPINION on what he/she thinks to be best in audio. I take it that this is your opinion. Fair enough. What is you empirical evidence that Onkyo is "best". I have owned many receivers and processors over the years and my opinion is very different than yours. I would just like to understand how you arrived at your opinion and not just through sales/price but actual performance. By performance, I mean actual listening tests with your environment, reliability, features, etc. Not to bust on you but you seem to state as fact but in reality is more your opinion.

[Deleted]

Thanks for the pic of the yamaha bob!. I do agree that onkyos are ugly as hell, I have one and don't like the look of it one bit but it's a decent unit for what I paid for it (607 for $500 new on street date My current denon 3311 will replace the onkyo 607 in the living room and the onyko will be moved to the bedroom.
I will probably wait until fall to make my next purchase but it MUST have 11.2 and not look like the marantz 7005. Thats one hell of an ugly receiver!! double yuckers!!! It looks like a power conditioner IMO lol

[NorthStar]

Jan 27, 2011 11:42:26 GMT -5 sharkman said:

You've got to admit it though, the Onkyos look butt ugly compared with the Denons. They need a face lift like yesterday.

The Onkyos don't look ugly, but the Denons do look better! ...From their front faces only!

* In my case it don't matter at all:
1. I never look at my electronics when seriously listening to Music or watching Movies.
2. My electronics are mainly out of view!
3. My wife is not the the top model looking type, but she certainly is the best lover!

[NorthStar]

Jan 27, 2011 17:42:15 GMT -5 KrellAV said:

Jan 25, 2011 3:53:44 GMT -5 NorthStar said:

Nope, I go with my brains, and from 2007 up to now, Onkyo/Integra is the new leader in the field of pre/pros and receivers overall! Performance/Value/Features/Build Quality/Ergonomics wise. ...And that mister is a fact!

Denon used to be the leader with their 3XXX and 4XXX and 5XXX receivers series (remember their latest ones, the 3805 and 5805?).

Before that Yamaha was big! And Marantz had some pretty nice receivers as well (before they get acquired by Denon Holdings and McIntosh joined the party).

I'm not into one brand more than another one, but I do recognize who's doing the best work year in year out!
...And that right from the late 60s!
I can pretty much tell you all the best receivers and pre/pros in each and every year since 1968 up to now in 2011.
I own several audio magazines from right back then till now!
I probably spent more time reading, evaluating, comparing audio electronics than the vast majority of people in this forum, plus several other audio forums as well!

Is Onkyo perfect? No! But they are still on top compared to other manufacturers, since they introduced their XX5 series in 2007.

So, yes, I will recommend to others what I truly know and believe to be the best overall.
And I always try to read between the lines of each person to find out what they are mostly interested in: Sound Quality, Build Quality that also includes quality parts, Features with Ethernet and all that Jazzzzz, Ergonomics for easy operation and intuitive setup, Best Auto Room Calibration & EQ, and simply Best Overall Value including all of the above versus Price ratio!

For me right now, the best pre/pro Value is the Onkyo PR-SC5508. Then the Integra DHC-80.2.
{Do you guys remember when the PR-SC885P was selling for only $529?}
- Did I mention the UMC-1 at only $699?

For top receiver Value it's the Onkyo TX-NR3008, followed by the TX-NR5008. (The TX-NR3008 is only $1,149 right now, and was $1,115 at one point at Amazon.)
{Do you guys remember when the TX-SR805 was selling for only $449? And as of very recently,
the TX-SR876 for only $699?}

For Multichannel Amps, it's ALL the Emotiva amps!
For Subs, it's the SVSs, Rythmiks, HSUs and some Paradigm ones.

For Loudspeakers, no way I would say one more than another; it is simply too personal. But I do know good value and good design with smooth sound when I see them on my radar though!

Blu-ray players? Tough as they keep comin' and comin'...
CD players? You don't have to spend more than $500 for a great sounding one, the ERC-1 included.

And NEVER, and I mean NEVER buy at MSRP! Except for Emotiva of course; but then they always have great sales too!

I don't shy to say what my beliefs are! But I'm always careful because what for me is good ain't necessarily good for you!
But if you insist I'll do my very best to shoot all I got!

I am extremely flexible, and totally firm in my findings!
Plus I get several great feedbacks from happy people who bought what I recommended to them.

You can call me the Onkyo choo choo if you like for now, but be also aware that I harshly criticised them as well for their despicable Customer Support! And I mean that! Very tough on them! ...And that is fully deserved!

No one is truly bad on our planet (exept the people who kill mercilessly innocent people like the terrorists and suicide bombers without any brains!); and nobody is perfectly good either!

Life is all about BALANCE & INTELLIGENCE; then COMMUNICATION!

P.S. I tought Ntrain was the Onkyo & Rythmik choo choo?
...Maybe he is the main locomotive engine of the freight train, and I'm just the caboose at the other end? ...A bulletproof caboose!

Bob,
I certainly appreciate one's OPINION on what he/she thinks to be best in audio. I take it that this is your opinion. Fair enough. What is you empirical evidence that Onkyo is "best". I have owned many receivers and processors over the years and my opinion is very different than yours. I would just like to understand how you arrived at your opinion and not just through sales/price but actual performance. By performance, I mean actual listening tests with your environment, reliability, features, etc. Not to bust on you but you seem to state as fact but in reality is more your opinion.

Hi Mr. Krell,

I started my Audio hobby many many years ago. And I frequented (still) many of my friends Audio dealers and get together between friends on weekends for evaluating (expressing our opinions and comparing in a friendly atmosphere our differents systems) and learning.

I bought my first Denon products back in the mid 80s and up to 2008; that's a good stretch of experience with Denon products, Denon dealers, Denon customer service, and Denon's ups and downs over that quite extensive period of time! I tasted them all; from their Integrated Amplifiers, Stereo Receivers, A/V Receivers, Tape Cassette decks, CD players, DVD players, Universal DVD players, CDs, and whatever else I might forgot.

Of course it is my opinion as each member express his opinion also! That is certainly not my Mom or Dad's opinion!

I also have (own/owned) all the other brands (here we are specifically talking receivers) of receivers as well!
Of course not all models, but always in the top two or four.

So, yes Mr. Krell, I did own them and I did listen to them; and from my perspective I am quite used to their overall sound characteristics and also their pros and cons!

And not only I am a very attentive listener, but I always use the same set of loudspeakers for the last 25 years!
And I also studied their internals as well very meticulously!
...And read EVERYTHING INTELLIGENT there is to read about them!
We discuss between Audiuophile friends, Audio dealers and even Companie's Representatives. Plus even the comnpanie's Technicians!

So you see Mr. Krell, my opinion is based on extensive background of knowlege, direct listening experience, technical discussions with the pros, and extremely deep passion for this audio hobby!
And of course the vast sharing with my friends and the people from the Wide Web World!

I'm 55 years old, and I started my Audio experience in my early teens. I built my own "Back Surround Speaker" (single one with a 12" woofer and a 2" tweeter/midrange; and without any crossover) when I was only 15 years old!
Before that I was making "pseudo stereo" out of AM mono radio! At age 11 or 12!
I started playing music (guitar, harmonica, steel flute) when I was only 12! ...And still play!

When I was at that age (10 to 18), my next door neighbour was an Audio dealer. And his two sons were not only friends but went to school with them and in the same class!

I never stopped my Audio "business" of my entire life! It has been one of my major force over all the years and even more now than then!

Would you like me to tell you some very specific stories about my Audio life and who were the Audio people that I frequented over the years? Plus all the musicians and our own recording techniques?

Let's put this way; in roughly 44 years I have NEVER stopped pushing my own Audio enveloppe!
Not to the limits of some other people, but to the extremes of my own pursuit!
Money in my own personal life was my main limit, but it didn't stop me to learn about some of the most expensive gear; just that I didn't have the opportunity to experience them in my own home ($125,000 turntable and the like...).

______________________________

Now! What about you Mr. Krell? Tell me about your own Audio Evolution and what you now believe between these two receivers in question HERE?
Please, I would luv to hear your opinion.

With my truest and sincerest regards,
Bob

P.S. I wouldn't be surprised if I can tell you more about your own electronics from your signature than yourself know about them!
May I ask you Mr. Krell how old are you?

[NorthStar]

Jan 27, 2011 17:42:15 GMT -5 KrellAV said:

Bob,
I certainly appreciate one's OPINION on what he/she thinks to be best in audio. I take it that this is your opinion. Fair enough. What is you empirical evidence that Onkyo is "best". I have owned many receivers and processors over the years and my opinion is very different than yours. I would just like to understand how you arrived at your opinion and not just through sales/price but actual performance. By performance, I mean actual listening tests with your environment, reliability, features, etc. Not to bust on you but you seem to state as fact but in reality is more your opinion.

I'm goin' to quote you a second time here!

1. Thank you for appreciating my own personal opinion!

2. "Best" is in your own words! ...Some of the best is more like it!

3. "Fair enough"! I sure hope so! ...That goes without saying...

4. "Empirical evidence"! Wow! You really chose that one well Mr. Krell!

5. I luv it when people have different opinions! Makes this world much more interesting and much less boring! Plus it creates discussions from which we can learn more!

6. "State as fact"! Nope, you're the one that came up with this idea! Not me! (Reminds me the mentality of some people over at AVScience Forum!)

* Mr. Krell, what is REALITY? What are true FACTS? For you? For me? For them?
Did I ckeck ALL the Audio gear in this world? NO! Did you?

What are the true values in Audio that we can use to make a fair assessment? Are there some derivatives and variations in one's own system that play some important roles here?
Is good functionality of operation and less than perfect audio reproduction are to be also considered into the equation?
Is money a factor?

Mr. Krell, I am a very outspoken person as you can see, and I luv communication and dicussions, because I learn from them.
A constructive discussion is one that brings to the table new points, new perspectives, new experiences...
A constructive discussion is not one that tries to impose ideas or say that a person is wrong about his own opinions, or that this product is the ultimate best and that other one is pure junk; but to weave substance and love and passion and real sharing about each one's own experience in an easy to understand, acceptance, relevance, into several products so we can compare them where we are now, in an audio forum (Emotiva Lounge).

Did I ever say that I was totally right in my convictions? NO!
But I am convinced notheless until proven wrong!

I talk a lot and I hope that what I say makes sense, because it would make me feel pretty stupid!

Now, please, again, tell me what you think, yourself personally, about the Denon AVR-4311CI A/V receiver, and the Onkyo TX-NR5008 A/V Receiver?
Because at the end, that's all I'm interested to know, right here in this thread.

Me, I already gave my viewpoint. Now your turn!

Your friend,
Bob

[NorthStar]

...One more thing; don't take every single word that I say to their face value!
There is a lot of good humor in my posts; it's all about mixing (balancing) good sense of humor with learning and sharing.

Eg.; If I say "It's a fact!" ...That is my own style of saying what I believe, and it don't mean that it is the absolute!

Many people before complaint about me using too many emoticons. But this is who I truly am; a good spirited individual that luvs to live life with laughter and happy heart. And to share it with ALL!

I can be very serious if I really need too. But I do feel that when I do too much I lost the true ESSENCE of life!
Why? Because everything is relative! ...And with time the rules change! The specs improve or degrade. Every day the scientists are discovering and rediscovering new facts, and what was a fact yesterday is now totally obsolete today!
There are zillion of examples to corroborate this FACT, and when you live in this world with full AWARENESS it's when you start to realize that life has an innocence to it, a fragility, a flagrance, an emotional balance, a day to day happyness, natural elements that can give or take life; it's a constant revolution, a constant rediscovery...

I truly believe that the people that are too serious and constantly in that state, are not truly happy individuals.
Usually they are politicians, lawyers, judges, stockbrokers, criminals (like bank robbers and killers and terrorists), prostitutes, people constantly in search of the money and more money, etc.

Music is a Liberation, and doesn't have any material value!

P.S. And sorry for the zillion of typos in my posts.

[broncsrule21]

If you look up LOTR in a dictionary it says--Passionate!

[NorthStar]

Jan 28, 2011 2:07:56 GMT -5 broncsrule21 said:

If you look up LOTR in a dictionary it says--Passionate!

Really?

EDIT: I just look at it, and it says "Bob". ;D

...About: Luxuriant Onkyo Thee Receiver!

[broncsrule21]

Jan 28, 2011 2:21:43 GMT -5 NorthStar said:

Jan 28, 2011 2:07:56 GMT -5 broncsrule21 said:

If you look up LOTR in a dictionary it says--Passionate!

Really?

EDIT: I just look at it, and it says "Bob". ;D

You are right! Sorry. ;D

I took the opposite path than you. When I first began with HT I started off with an Integra receiver. (pro logic) Then I moved on to Denon (and still have and enjoy most of that gear). Now I am looking to go full separates in the near future and Onkyo is on thee list of possibilities again. I will wait for the XMC to be out for a while before I make a move though. So, Onkyo, Emotiva, and Marantz and some others are in the mix.

PS I just can't get over the ugliness of the Outlaw.