ntrain42
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Post by ntrain42 on Feb 1, 2011 20:27:18 GMT -5
I'm sorry Andrew, but from my experience, the UMC/UPA-5 combo is a bit better than your typical Onkyo AVR. I compared the UMC/UPA-5 combo(before I had the XPA-5) against the 3007, and the UPA-5 clearly sounded better than the 3007 by itself. With the XPA, it's absolutely no contest. Sure, the Emo separates aren't the best separates out there, but they are without a doubt better than an Onkyo AVR by itself IMO. Sounded better? How so? Did you actually level set gains correctly? Do you know that being just a db off on gain matching can make one setup "sound" better than another? This is a proven fact. I find the upper end Onkyo's to be superior in a number of key areas including no audible crosstalk, and a lower noise floor. Driven within its power limits the Onkyo is nothing to sneeze at and outperforms some of the Emotiva amps in a few categories without question. |
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Pauly
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Post by Pauly on Feb 1, 2011 20:46:41 GMT -5
No, I'll admit, it wasn't a proper A/B, and I was mainly testing the 3007 as pre/pro most importantly, and yes, I do know the importance of level matching. I found the UPA-5 to be smoother when pushed hard, with a bit more impact. The Onkyo sounded a bit thin, and a little harsh in comparison. This was in my system, my room, and like I said, it was not a true A/B. But I do agree, the Onkyo by itself is nothing to sneeze at. It has the best amp section of any AVR that I've had in my system, and I would probably be very happy with it in my system.
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ntrain42
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Post by ntrain42 on Feb 1, 2011 20:55:54 GMT -5
No, I'll admit, it wasn't a proper A/B, and I was mainly testing the 3007 as pre/pro most importantly, and yes, I do know the importance of level matching. I found the UPA-5 to be smoother when pushed hard, with a bit more impact. The Onkyo sounded a bit thin, and a little harsh in comparison. This was in my system, my room, and like I said, it was not a true A/B. But I do agree, the Onkyo by itself is nothing to sneeze at. It has the best amp section of any AVR that I've had in my system, and I would probably be very happy with it in my system. When pushed hard, Im sure the UPA had more headroom and sounded more relaxed as it should. But the Onkyo drivin within its distortion free limits is a very good all in one AVR. |
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NorthStar
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Post by NorthStar on Feb 1, 2011 20:59:11 GMT -5
FYI, I think all A/V REC'S suck. Marantz and Denon are by no means the same. I have sold all of them for well over 15 years and still do. The Onkyo amps are very shitty, not stable to 4 ohm at all, any of them, regardless of what they claim. Out of the bunch, I think the Marantz is by far the best quality sound of any of the rec's out there today. FYI and I still think they suck, buy separates. I prefer Yamaha receivers best for overall sound quality myself. Marantz is too "faky" and "echoish" for me. It ain't natural, it is pre-fabricated, tuned to please certain type of people; and I ain't that type. But I agree with you, separates are still the leaders in overall sound quality!  And now they are quite affordable for the masses too!  Why are we here?  * Oh and my Onk 876 can take care of all my 4 Ohm speakers (2.7 Ohms large dip in my Center one) thank you very much sir! |
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NorthStar
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Post by NorthStar on Feb 1, 2011 21:07:23 GMT -5
I'm sorry Andrew, but from my experience, the UMC/UPA-5 combo is a bit better than your typical Onkyo AVR. I compared the UMC/UPA-5 combo(before I had the XPA-5) against the 3007, and the UPA-5 clearly sounded better than the 3007 by itself. With the XPA, it's absolutely no contest. Sure, the Emo separates aren't the best separates out there, but they are without a doubt better than an Onkyo AVR by itself IMO. Agreed; when I switched over my Onk 876 for the XPA-2 and 5, it took the entire soundstage to another level all together! Dynamics I guess and some'... * But I'm with Ntrain here, those Onks from the two or three top models starting from 2007 and up till now are certainly no douchebags! ;D ...They can hold their own with any other one in their price range and give other much more expensive ones a good run for their money! It amuses me people that are spitting on those Onkyo receivers and that never even have them in their own system! Or others saying that they run too hot! It's like me saying I hate Denons because they always fudge their specs! Or the Pioneers & Yamahas because it took them so long before they gave us more than a single global speaker x-over! Or the Marantzs because they don't have enough processing power! Or the NADS because they are totally not reliable and break down continuously! Or the Arcams because they are plagued with so many technological issues! ...Ti-li-dam... |
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Post by 45acpauto on Feb 1, 2011 23:57:42 GMT -5
FYI, I think all A/V REC'S suck. Marantz and Denon are by no means the same. I have sold all of them for well over 15 years and still do. The Onkyo amps are very shitty, not stable to 4 ohm at all, any of them, regardless of what they claim. Out of the bunch, I think the Marantz is by far the best quality sound of any of the rec's out there today. FYI and I still think they suck, buy separates. Definetly not true. THose upper tier Onkyo AVR's without question have very good amplifier sections. Very good. And not 4ohm stable? Tell it to the man running all true 4ohm Maggie speakers that are very inefficient. Im not even using one of those upper tier Onkyo's. I'm using a lower model 707 to do it in my kids room. Onkyo's are known for having very good amp sections and being a very durable and dependable product overall. They have been for years. My previous 906 that I had, I would take that AVR over a UMC/UPA5 or 7 combo any day of the week. As for Denon/Marantz. Basically the same company and they use the same parts. Go over to the AVS, and search under Marantz/Denon, there are at least a couple threads showing the internals of recent offerings by these 2 brands. Sure looks like they are made from the same parts bin to me. They may share some technology, but Maranyz does thing way different. As far as the Onkyo, I shut them things down in the store all the time driving 4 ohm speakers. I think Onk/Integra amps blow. When pushed hard they simply shut down. I agree about them killing a UPA-5. My Integra DTR.8.9 smoked my UPA-5 with ease. Just my opinion. |
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ntrain42
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Post by ntrain42 on Feb 2, 2011 1:02:22 GMT -5
Definetly not true. THose upper tier Onkyo AVR's without question have very good amplifier sections. Very good. And not 4ohm stable? Tell it to the man running all true 4ohm Maggie speakers that are very inefficient. Im not even using one of those upper tier Onkyo's. I'm using a lower model 707 to do it in my kids room. Onkyo's are known for having very good amp sections and being a very durable and dependable product overall. They have been for years. My previous 906 that I had, I would take that AVR over a UMC/UPA5 or 7 combo any day of the week. As for Denon/Marantz. Basically the same company and they use the same parts. Go over to the AVS, and search under Marantz/Denon, there are at least a couple threads showing the internals of recent offerings by these 2 brands. Sure looks like they are made from the same parts bin to me. They may share some technology, but Maranyz does thing way different. As far as the Onkyo, I shut them things down in the store all the time driving 4 ohm speakers. I think Onk/Integra amps blow. When pushed hard they simply shut down. I agree about them killing a UPA-5. My Integra DTR.8.9 smoked my UPA-5 with ease. Just my opinion. You shut them down all the time? Do go on in detail please.............I'd love to know how badly you were clipping the amp. |
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NorthStar
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Post by NorthStar on Feb 2, 2011 2:13:48 GMT -5
I'm all ears too! Denon flagship receivers just shut down when push hard. Yamaha flagship receivers just keep pounding. ...And then they shut down, but much later on. My Marantz SR-18 receiver was not bad, not bad at all (toroidal and 112,000 uF total extra reserve capacitance)! My Onkyos were all right too, when set properly. Pioneers top models are fine too. * But some units can have some less refined chosen parts sometimes, and that happens with ALL the manufacturers! ...And you also have owner's errors! Soooo, lesser quality parts in some units, bad connections from owners, wrong settings, bad speakers matching, etc. Shlt happens! ...You just have to roll with it, the Ying Yang... |
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ntrain42
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Post by ntrain42 on Feb 2, 2011 10:39:49 GMT -5
Ive never had an Onkyo AVR thats 4ohm rated shut down using TRUE 4 ohm speakers. In fact, Ive never seen an Onkyo AVR that isnt 4 ohm rated shut down using true 4 ohm speakers. If they are shutting down, then I question how they were set up or are being used. The one times I saw an Onkyo shut down trying to drive 4ohm speakers was user error due to the person poorly connecting the speaker wires to the terminals having a strand or 2 cross/connect the negative with the positive. The other time was a moron STRIPPING terminal ends over the top of the air vents of the Onkyo AVR during a home setup, and do so after I told him NOT to do that. The unit went into protect mode. I ended up having to turn the unit upside down to shake the copper stands out and then proceed to use compressed air to blow the internals of the unit clean. Worked just fine after that. |
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ntrain42
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Post by ntrain42 on Feb 2, 2011 10:40:10 GMT -5
Definetly not true. THose upper tier Onkyo AVR's without question have very good amplifier sections. Very good. And not 4ohm stable? Tell it to the man running all true 4ohm Maggie speakers that are very inefficient. Im not even using one of those upper tier Onkyo's. I'm using a lower model 707 to do it in my kids room. Onkyo's are known for having very good amp sections and being a very durable and dependable product overall. They have been for years. My previous 906 that I had, I would take that AVR over a UMC/UPA5 or 7 combo any day of the week. As for Denon/Marantz. Basically the same company and they use the same parts. Go over to the AVS, and search under Marantz/Denon, there are at least a couple threads showing the internals of recent offerings by these 2 brands. Sure looks like they are made from the same parts bin to me. They may share some technology, but Maranyz does thing way different. As far as the Onkyo, I shut them things down in the store all the time driving 4 ohm speakers. I think Onk/Integra amps blow. When pushed hard they simply shut down. I agree about them killing a UPA-5. My Integra DTR.8.9 smoked my UPA-5 with ease. Just my opinion. Marantz does things no different than Integra does compared to Onkyo in many ways. |
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Post by hammmerhead on Feb 2, 2011 11:25:34 GMT -5
FYI, I think all A/V REC'S suck. Marantz and Denon are by no means the same. I have sold all of them for well over 15 years and still do. The Onkyo amps are very shitty, not stable to 4 ohm at all, any of them, regardless of what they claim. Out of the bunch, I think the Marantz is by far the best quality sound of any of the rec's out there today. FYI and I still think they suck, buy separates. Hey 45. Do you sell Integra and Onk? How competitive are you on your pricing? If interested PM me a quote on the Onk 5008 and the Integra 80.2. |
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Post by 45acpauto on Feb 2, 2011 13:37:11 GMT -5
FYI, I think all A/V REC'S suck. Marantz and Denon are by no means the same. I have sold all of them for well over 15 years and still do. The Onkyo amps are very shitty, not stable to 4 ohm at all, any of them, regardless of what they claim. Out of the bunch, I think the Marantz is by far the best quality sound of any of the rec's out there today. FYI and I still think they suck, buy separates. Hey 45. Do you sell Integra and Onk? How competitive are you on your pricing? If interested PM me a quote on the Onk 5008 and the Integra 80.2. Will do, are you talking about the pre/pro or the A/V Rec, we do not sell onk, just Integra. Not at work today, I am in Chicago and we are getting pounded by a nasty Blizzard, who knows when I will get back to work. All the roads are closed and we have like 3 ft of snow with 6 ft drifts everywhere. This is crazy, I have never seen snow like this in Chicago. |
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Post by 45acpauto on Feb 2, 2011 13:41:25 GMT -5
They may share some technology, but Maranyz does thing way different. As far as the Onkyo, I shut them things down in the store all the time driving 4 ohm speakers. I think Onk/Integra amps blow. When pushed hard they simply shut down. I agree about them killing a UPA-5. My Integra DTR.8.9 smoked my UPA-5 with ease. Just my opinion. You shut them down all the time? Do go on in detail please.............I'd love to know how badly you were clipping the amp. Never clipped the amp my friend. It is all the Integra models, I shut them down at ref level which is 82 on the volume with 4 ohm speakers all the time, sad if you ask me. Back in the day we could not sell Integra with M&K cuz the units would just shut down. I do the same with Marantz with no problems at all. I love Integras processing, but, the amps simply suck!!!!! |
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Pauly
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Post by Pauly on Feb 2, 2011 13:43:46 GMT -5
Good thing you still have internet! Good luck with the blizzard, I know they can be rough.
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Post by 45acpauto on Feb 2, 2011 13:46:10 GMT -5
I'm all ears too! Denon flagship receivers just shut down when push hard. Yamaha flagship receivers just keep pounding. ...And then they shut down, but much later on. My Marantz SR-18 receiver was not bad, not bad at all (toroidal and 112,000 uF total extra reserve capacitance)! My Onkyos were all right too, when set properly. Pioneers top models are fine too. * But some units can have some less refined chosen parts sometimes, and that happens with ALL the manufacturers! ...And you also have owner's errors! Soooo, lesser quality parts in some units, bad connections from owners, wrong settings, bad speakers matching, etc. Shlt happens! ...You just have to roll with it, the Ying Yang... Yeah, Denons shut down as well. We no longer do Yamaha, but, they have solid amp sections that I have never been able to shut one down. I do like the Yamaha AV'S quite well. |
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Post by 45acpauto on Feb 2, 2011 13:48:23 GMT -5
Good thing you still have internet! Good luck with the blizzard, I know they can be rough. Thanks Pauly. This is insane check it out on weather.com. |
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ntrain42
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Post by ntrain42 on Feb 2, 2011 15:40:18 GMT -5
You shut them down all the time? Do go on in detail please.............I'd love to know how badly you were clipping the amp. Never clipped the amp my friend. It is all the Integra models, I shut them down at ref level which is 82 on the volume with 4 ohm speakers all the time, sad if you ask me. Back in the day we could not sell Integra with M&K cuz the units would just shut down. I do the same with Marantz with no problems at all. I love Integras processing, but, the amps simply suck!!!!! Reference level? And what is "reference level" exactly to you? 82 on the volume knob?!?! LOL! Sounds to me like you more than clipped the amp beyond its true rms/dynamic ability if the limiter kicked in(And the limiter is there to PROTECT the AMP). The amps are excellent drivin WITHIN their rms ability. If you were using prosumer MK's and trying to drive them at true reference levels in the 100-110db range I can bet you 100% you shut the AVR's internal amp down. Onkyo's basically put the same power out at 4ohms as they do at 8ohms. MK's have a lower than average sensitivity real world in the low to mid 80's. So if your driving a mid price Onkyo or Integra(same difference) AVR that puts out around 40-80watts rms all channels driven, then your not going to get a ton of output. You can get comfortably 90db rms(which is the output a motorcycle or a lawnmover roughly) with dynamic peaks in the 100 range depending on a typical home HT room size. But getting more out of that with those speakers is what I consider user abuse/stupidity. And to say an amp "sucks" because you can overdrive it is clueless at best. Knowing what your equipment can do and matching it up to YOUR needs PROPERLY will determine if the product is good for your needs. My kids HT room uses an lower tiered Onkyo 707. I paid about 300 bucks for it shipped. It honestly has about 40 watts rms 8 or 4 ohms. It drives low sensitivity Magnepan speakers. Its used in a rather small room around 16x14. And it does a wonderful job of getting good clean volume in the 90-100db range. The highpass xover is set correctly(120hz in this case) I use the volume limiter to make sure the kids cant crank the volume up to absurd levels or overdrive the amp into clipping, and it still gives great output. The example I give is one where the AVR in question is used properly and meets the needs fully of the customer who uses it and matched up with components and output within its capabilities. |
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Post by hammmerhead on Feb 2, 2011 16:02:32 GMT -5
Hey 45. Do you sell Integra and Onk? How competitive are you on your pricing? If interested PM me a quote on the Onk 5008 and the Integra 80.2. Will do, are you talking about the pre/pro or the A/V Rec, we do not sell onk, just Integra. Not at work today, I am in Chicago and we are getting pounded by a nasty Blizzard, who knows when I will get back to work. All the roads are closed and we have like 3 ft of snow with 6 ft drifts everywhere. This is crazy, I have never seen snow like this in Chicago. The Integra Receiver. I believe it is the 80.2. I have not seen a price on one and personally have never heard one. Im guessing its a good chunk more than the Onk 5008 but wondering if it is worth the extra money? |
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Post by hammmerhead on Feb 2, 2011 16:08:09 GMT -5
Heck from all the cumulative posts in this thread I am questioning any receiver at this point. I guess I should really concentrate on the best "pre/pro" section and options on a receiver. You know LOTR made a good point about expensive receivers and them becoming obsolete...geez I have one. Maybe I should just concentrate on a $800- 1K receiver and pick up an amp.
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Post by 45acpauto on Feb 2, 2011 16:16:07 GMT -5
Never clipped the amp my friend. It is all the Integra models, I shut them down at ref level which is 82 on the volume with 4 ohm speakers all the time, sad if you ask me. Back in the day we could not sell Integra with M&K cuz the units would just shut down. I do the same with Marantz with no problems at all. I love Integras processing, but, the amps simply suck!!!!! Reference level? And what is "reference level" exactly to you? 82 on the volume knob?!?! LOL! Sounds to me like you more than clipped the amp beyond its true rms/dynamic ability if the limiter kicked in(And the limiter is there to PROTECT the AMP). The amps are excellent drivin WITHIN their rms ability. If you were using prosumer MK's and trying to drive them at true reference levels in the 100-110db range I can bet you 100% you shut the AVR's internal amp down. Onkyo's basically put the same power out at 4ohms as they do at 8ohms. MK's have a lower than average sensitivity real world in the low to mid 80's. So if your driving a mid price Onkyo or Integra(same difference) AVR that puts out around 40-80watts rms all channels driven, then your not going to get a ton of output. You can get comfortably 90db rms(which is the output a motorcycle or a lawnmover roughly) with dynamic peaks in the 100 range depending on a typical home HT room size. But getting more out of that with those speakers is what I consider user abuse/stupidity. And to say an amp "sucks" because you can overdrive it is clueless at best. Knowing what your equipment can do and matching it up to YOUR needs PROPERLY will determine if the product is good for your needs. My kids HT room uses an lower tiered Onkyo 707. I paid about 300 bucks for it shipped. It honestly has about 40 watts rms 8 or 4 ohms. It drives low sensitivity Magnepan speakers. Its used in a rather small room around 16x14. And it does a wonderful job of getting good clean volume in the 90-100db range. The highpass xover is set correctly(120hz in this case) I use the volume limiter to make sure the kids cant crank the volume up to absurd levels or overdrive the amp into clipping, and it still gives great output. The example I give is one where the AVR in question is used properly and meets the needs fully of the customer who uses it and matched up with components and output within its capabilities. Trust me Train, far from abuse. I shut the DTR80.2 down with friggin B&W 683 towers in 2 ch. The amps in them blow, I play it with the Marantz SR7005 and it rocks, never shuts down. The Integras have always done this, for the past 9 years I have been selling them, they are week. Plus they only rate the amp section with 2 ch drivin, I wonder what they really make with all ch drivin. |
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