Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 11, 2011 15:05:36 GMT -5
>> Tell me I'm wrong! <<
You're wrong!
-RW-
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NorthStar
Seeker Of Truth
"And it stoned me to my soul" - Van Morrison
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Post by NorthStar on Mar 11, 2011 15:27:51 GMT -5
OK... you're wrong. ;D Always happy to oblige. Fine, but now prove it! ;D |
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NorthStar
Seeker Of Truth
"And it stoned me to my soul" - Van Morrison
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Post by NorthStar on Mar 11, 2011 15:28:37 GMT -5
>> Tell me I'm wrong! << You're wrong! -RW- Same as above. ...And good luck!  |
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Post by monkumonku on Mar 11, 2011 16:09:12 GMT -5
Wow! Can we believe more the science than our own eyes and ears? That is what science is! Our brains! But sometimes, just sometimes, our minds play tricks on us. Science can be used to expose those tricks... ;D Well regardless of what "science" proves, if our minds still continue to play tricks on us then from the perspective of the person whose mind is playing the tricks, what exactly is reality? If they believe, despite what logic or objectivity dictates, that red is blue, who can "prove" to them otherwise? |
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Post by stuofsci02 on Mar 11, 2011 16:11:02 GMT -5
Bob,
I made the determination for myself using both my ears and verification through scientific principal.
While I agree with you that science does not explain everything in our universe, and that there are a lot of unknowns, within the realm of audio, where signals are measured in the low Khz, the science is very well understood and the laws that govern the science are not always changing.
IMO there are few, if any, things that can cause audible difference in this hobby that cannot be shown/proved with the technology we have today.
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Post by stuofsci02 on Mar 11, 2011 16:14:21 GMT -5
But sometimes, just sometimes, our minds play tricks on us. Science can be used to expose those tricks... ;D Well regardless of what "science" proves, if our minds still continue to play tricks on us then from the perspective of the person whose mind is playing the tricks, what exactly is reality? If they believe, despite what logic or objectivity dictates, that red is blue, who can "prove" to them otherwise? Well, that of course is a whole other topic. I consistently find that when I am relaxed my system sounds better. When I am letting someone else listen to my system is when I find it sounds the worst. So I would agree that state of mind plays a role in how someone hears something. So if "big dollar" cables puts someone into a state of mind that allows them to enjoy their system then who am I to argue. |
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Post by medoras on Mar 11, 2011 17:05:12 GMT -5
Well regardless of what "science" proves, if our minds still continue to play tricks on us then from the perspective of the person whose mind is playing the tricks, what exactly is reality? If they believe, despite what logic or objectivity dictates, that red is blue, who can "prove" to them otherwise? Well, that of course is a whole other topic. I consistently find that when I am relaxed my system sounds better. When I am letting someone else listen to my system is when I find it sounds the worst. So I would agree that state of mind plays a role in how someone hears something. So if "big dollar" cables puts someone into a state of mind that allows them to enjoy their system then who am I to argue. You are right. There seems to be a direct correlation between a good Pinot Grigio and the warmth of the sound. I kind of laugh at all this stuff since my audiophile buddy brought his $400 Kimber speaker cables over for a group listening test on my system and my Axiom Audio Cable at $0.98 cents/foot won the test. To each their own. |
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Post by stuofsci02 on Mar 11, 2011 17:10:13 GMT -5
What made your Axiom win the test? If you could pick a winner then you agree that a difference could be heard?
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Post by geebo on Mar 11, 2011 17:23:53 GMT -5
But sometimes, just sometimes, our minds play tricks on us. Science can be used to expose those tricks... ;D Well regardless of what "science" proves, if our minds still continue to play tricks on us then from the perspective of the person whose mind is playing the tricks, what exactly is reality? If they believe, despite what logic or objectivity dictates, that red is blue, who can "prove" to them otherwise? Exactly! If one truly believes something, that becomes fact for that person, but not necessarily for everyone... |
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NorthStar
Seeker Of Truth
"And it stoned me to my soul" - Van Morrison
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Post by NorthStar on Mar 11, 2011 17:33:32 GMT -5
Bob, I made the determination for myself using both my ears and verification through scientific principal. While I agree with you that science does not explain everything in our universe, and that there are a lot of unknowns, within the realm of audio, where signals are measured in the low Khz, the science is very well understood and the laws that govern the science are not always changing. IMO there are few, if any, things that can cause audible difference in this hobby that cannot be shown/proved with the technology we have today. That is an intelligent post with an open mind. There are scientists that are questioning science itself! * In my life I learned to trust my own coordinates, with a fair balance of science and also new experiments. I am always flexible, of course, as I am fully aware that the Absolute doesn't exist! There is simply no Black & White; it's all Colors now! And you have to respect all the colors from the natural colored palette of life. ________________ I am from the camp of believers that different power cords can indeed affect the sound. I ain't a scientist, just someone that believe himself and few others as well. And the final proof is in the attentive listening. And even from some measurement tests. |
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Post by rclark on Mar 11, 2011 18:31:22 GMT -5
Another thing to consider is not everyone can hear as well as others. Just as people can have poor eyesight, people can have poor hearing, and especially as we age, and you don't even have to be more than in your 30's to have greatly diminished ability to hear certain frequencies well, and certain subtleties in sound can greatly elude you.
I think most audiophiles are greatly ancient, and perhaps there's a bit of pride involved, and thus in no position to really judge minute changes in audio quality. It's like asking asking someone legally blind or with less than optimal eyesight, who has no idea that they're in such a state (or have conveniently forgotten, again, the pride thing), to judge the crispness of the lettering on a stopsign.
It's like asking a fat person to describe what it feels like for a 160 pound athlete to run a quarter mile. They think they know, but they don't.
Point is, many people have very sensitive hearing, and many don't. The fact that there is an audio cable industry at ALL says that gee there might be something to it, and just because YOU can't hear a difference, well hey, newsflash, it might just be YOU.
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Post by thepcguy on Mar 11, 2011 18:41:32 GMT -5
Bob, azsoundman, et al
Any concrete proof of your claims?
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Post by tjhenry on Mar 11, 2011 18:49:09 GMT -5
stuofsci02 wrote:
I have never heard a difference between two well constructed cables of equivilent gauge. I have also never heard anyone show with any science (that could not be disproved by anyone who knows a thing about electricity) what about a cable will make a difference.
stuofsci02,
The Affordable Audio article I referenced (Sept. 2008) displays hard data in the form of power line measurements that show a decrease in power line noise for electricity sent through an upgraded power cable as compared to a stock power cable. Further, less noise could be seen at the amplifier's speaker outputs which suggests that the incoming noise from the power line is transmitted through the power supply of the amplifier. Now, there can still be discussion on what causes the decrease in noise when using the upgraded power cable versus stock: gauge, shielding, construction design, etc.. However, since the writer of the article also tested upgraded power outlets and also measured a difference in noise, and since outlets don't contain a large gauge of wire or shielding, I'm inclined to think the power line noise reduction came from the internal construction of the cable (twisting, insulating materials used, etc.). If materials and construction of the cable is the (main) contributing factor, it might explain why listeners are able to get different benefits by switching cables from different manufacturers. Different construction from different manufacturers might lead to better or worse filtering overall or better or worse filtering of certain contaminating frequencies.
My big point is that there is hard data available on reduction of power line noise when using an aftermarket power cable. The reduction in noise at certain frequencies was measured to be 2 to 4 dB which would be audible in direct comparison to a stock power cable.
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Post by thepcguy on Mar 11, 2011 19:16:39 GMT -5
stuofsci02 wrote: I have never heard a difference between two well constructed cables of equivilent gauge. I have also never heard anyone show with any science (that could not be disproved by anyone who knows a thing about electricity) what about a cable will make a difference. stuofsci02, The Affordable Audio article I referenced (Sept. 2008) displays hard data in the form of power line measurements that show a decrease in power line noise for electricity sent through an upgraded power cable as compared to a stock power cable. Further, less noise could be seen at the amplifier's speaker outputs which suggests that the incoming noise from the power line is transmitted through the power supply of the amplifier. Now, there can still be discussion on what causes the decrease in noise when using the upgraded power cable versus stock: gauge, shielding, construction design, etc.. However, since the writer of the article also tested upgraded power outlets and also measured a difference in noise, and since outlets don't contain a large gauge of wire or shielding, I'm inclined to think the power line noise reduction came from the internal construction of the cable (twisting, insulating materials used, etc.). If materials and construction of the cable is the (main) contributing factor, it might explain why listeners are able to get different benefits by switching cables from different manufacturers. Different construction from different manufacturers might lead to better or worse filtering overall or better or worse filtering of certain contaminating frequencies. My big point is that there is hard data available on reduction of power line noise when using an aftermarket power cable. The reduction in noise at certain frequencies was measured to be 2 to 4 dB which would be audible in direct comparison to a stock power cable. What about proof (data, documentations, etc) someone realy HEARD a difference? |
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Post by monkumonku on Mar 11, 2011 19:27:27 GMT -5
stuofsci02 wrote: I have never heard a difference between two well constructed cables of equivilent gauge. I have also never heard anyone show with any science (that could not be disproved by anyone who knows a thing about electricity) what about a cable will make a difference. stuofsci02, The Affordable Audio article I referenced (Sept. 2008) displays hard data in the form of power line measurements that show a decrease in power line noise for electricity sent through an upgraded power cable as compared to a stock power cable. Further, less noise could be seen at the amplifier's speaker outputs which suggests that the incoming noise from the power line is transmitted through the power supply of the amplifier. Now, there can still be discussion on what causes the decrease in noise when using the upgraded power cable versus stock: gauge, shielding, construction design, etc.. However, since the writer of the article also tested upgraded power outlets and also measured a difference in noise, and since outlets don't contain a large gauge of wire or shielding, I'm inclined to think the power line noise reduction came from the internal construction of the cable (twisting, insulating materials used, etc.). If materials and construction of the cable is the (main) contributing factor, it might explain why listeners are able to get different benefits by switching cables from different manufacturers. Different construction from different manufacturers might lead to better or worse filtering overall or better or worse filtering of certain contaminating frequencies. My big point is that there is hard data available on reduction of power line noise when using an aftermarket power cable. The reduction in noise at certain frequencies was measured to be 2 to 4 dB which would be audible in direct comparison to a stock power cable. What about proof (data, documentations, etc) someone realy HEARD a difference? Well personally I think you can argue forever and never come to a conclusion or get the other person to change their mind on this subject. And as one poster pointed out, it depends on each person's hearing acuity since it usually worsens as we get older. However, how does lowering the noise translate to audible improvement if you are playing music that is above the noise threshold? People report things such as improved imaging, or a wider soundstage, etc., but is that what the measured lower noise results in? (I don't know, I'm asking..). Also, talking about noise - older, analog recordings had background hiss in them but when the music was above the hiss level, did the hiss then make a difference? And for those who prefer vinyl over CD's - doesn't vinyl introduce a certain noise level from the grooves in the record? So why wouldn't that have a negative impact on the sound quality? Anyway, I guess we hear what we hear (or think we hear - psychology is still a potent factor) and so if we feel something makes an improvement, that should be what matters. |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 11, 2011 19:30:42 GMT -5
stuofsci02 wrote: I have never heard a difference between two well constructed cables of equivilent gauge. I have also never heard anyone show with any science (that could not be disproved by anyone who knows a thing about electricity) what about a cable will make a difference. stuofsci02, The Affordable Audio article I referenced (Sept. 2008) displays hard data in the form of power line measurements that show a decrease in power line noise for electricity sent through an upgraded power cable as compared to a stock power cable. Further, less noise could be seen at the amplifier's speaker outputs which suggests that the incoming noise from the power line is transmitted through the power supply of the amplifier. Now, there can still be discussion on what causes the decrease in noise when using the upgraded power cable versus stock: gauge, shielding, construction design, etc.. However, since the writer of the article also tested upgraded power outlets and also measured a difference in noise, and since outlets don't contain a large gauge of wire or shielding, I'm inclined to think the power line noise reduction came from the internal construction of the cable (twisting, insulating materials used, etc.). If materials and construction of the cable is the (main) contributing factor, it might explain why listeners are able to get different benefits by switching cables from different manufacturers. Different construction from different manufacturers might lead to better or worse filtering overall or better or worse filtering of certain contaminating frequencies. My big point is that there is hard data available on reduction of power line noise when using an aftermarket power cable. The reduction in noise at certain frequencies was measured to be 2 to 4 dB which would be audible in direct comparison to a stock power cable. What about proof (data, documentations, etc) someone realy HEARD a difference? Do you have proof that cables don't make a difference? |
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Post by thepcguy on Mar 11, 2011 19:32:40 GMT -5
What about proof (data, documentations, etc) someone realy HEARD a difference? Do you have proof that cables don't make a difference? Yes, see my other posts about this subject. And of course you can use the internet. Search the subject for yourself. Those who claim cables don't make a difference have data to back them up while those who claim to hear a difference don't have anything. |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 11, 2011 19:36:22 GMT -5
Do you have proof that cables don't make a difference? Yes, see my other posts about this subject. In this thread? I see you have two posts asking for proof on peoples claims lol |
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Post by thepcguy on Mar 11, 2011 19:41:26 GMT -5
Yes, see my other posts about this subject. In this thread? I see you have two posts asking for proof on peoples claims lol Before you LOL, i guess you never saw one of my posts (threads) which is now a stickie ;D |
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NorthStar
Seeker Of Truth
"And it stoned me to my soul" - Van Morrison
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Post by NorthStar on Mar 11, 2011 20:49:25 GMT -5
Thepcguy is coming out of the doldrums for that one, cool! ;D
No I don't have hard evidence; I'm simply a believer in mother nature.
And some members here brought some very good points.
The construction, the copper purity, how the wires are twisted in a certain power cord can have a determinating factor in the overall sound. A bigger wire gauge also can't be that bad!
Cable Impedance, Resistance, and Inductance are all important ingredients.
* I do have several very smart articles at home on Connections, and with proven tests.
For example; from nine speaker wires tested:
1. Prism Time Compensated
2. Nordost Flatline
3. Kimber 8TC
4. Kimber 4TC
5. Cardas Quadlink 5C
6. Van den Hul "The Revelation"
7. Van del Hul "Hybrid"
8. Amphenol RG8MU
9. Lamp Cord (AWG 16)
...The best performing cables with the lowest inductance, the flattest impedance versus frequency response and the shortest risetime, ...there was no contest; the Kimber 8TC took first place handily while the Kimber 4TC was an uncontested second.
The RG8/U coaxial transmission line finished in a not too shabby third placed but it probably still is best left in the radio room.
* If I could find the exact links of those articles from those mags I would have provided them. They were written by a master electrician (and many more professional titles), with measurement graphs and true science to support the results.
And there are a series of articles on Speaker Wires, Interconnect Cables (both Analog & Digital), AC Power Cords, and also on Power Purifiers.
But you guys are all very smart and you can probably find some of the best articles online by simply googling.
=> Here's a good tip on Interconnects: Getting rid of any unnecessary interconnects is a more audible improvement than replacing them with better cables.
____________________________________
But I do believe in the basic science behind the laws of physics.
What's good for the Interconnect is not necessarily good for the Speaker Cable.
There is one environmental parameter that causes a profound difference in performance. It is the interface impedance. Its magnitude dictates which of the cable's electrical parameters dominate the behavior of the interface. This, coupled with other considerations will impact on our selection criteria when shopping for effective speaker cables, interconnect cables, and AC power cables.
___________________
* Are the cables worth the bucks you have to pay to get them or can those funds be better invested elsewhere? Two 10-foot lengths of cheap wire that costs only $2 (10-cent-a-foot), versus the same length of exotic cable that costs $900 ($45-per-foot); the only way to answer that question is it's your money. You decide.
________________
The electrical characteristics of a given cable are a function of the geometry of that cable.
Again: Inductance & Capacitance are two major important factors. In general the most accurate signal will be presented through a cable of minimal inductance.
- And other considerations such as transmission-line effects, high frequencies migrating to the surface of wires (skin effect), and phase response in speaker cables are also worthy of relevance, or is it?
No, the differences which are perceived by many people can generally be attributed to frequency response changes due to the geometry of a given cable, and the reactance affecting the signal from the amplifier to the speaker.
_________________________
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REFERENCES
1. Making the Connection: A Closer Look At The Role Of Interconnect Cables, J.H. Hayward, Audio Ideas Guide, Summer/Fall 1994
2. Audio Power Amplifiers For Loudspeaker Loads, Eric Benjamin, AES Journal, September 1994
3. Effects Of Cable, Loudspeaker, and Amplifier Interactions, Fred E. Davis, AES Journal, June 1994
4. Peak Current Requirements Of Commercial Loudspeaker Systems, M. Otala and P. Huttenen, AES Journal, June 1987
5. Computing Peak Currents Into Loudspeakers, J. Vanderkooy and S.P. Lipshitz, Aes Journal, December 1986
6. Picking Capacitors, W. Jung and R.N. Marsh, Audio, Feb./March 1980
7. Dielectric Absorption In Capacitors, R.N. Marsh, Audio Amateur, 4/1980
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