Surge Protector / Power Supply Question

[westom]

Jul 22, 2011 11:30:36 GMT -5 Darksky said:

Maybe the whole house surge arrestor would be a good investment for me, but I don't know. I have lived out here for more than ten years without a major equipment failure (none really) I mean I wore out a coffee pot, but nothing electrical has fried. I never really worried about (more than buying probably cheapo surge protectors) it until today.

If you have $10,000 in plug-in protectors and no 'whole house' protector, then you have virtually no protection. For a very long list of reasons.

For example, where are the always required spec numbers for the PF-60? What does it claim for each type of surge?

Take a $4 power strip. Add some ten cent parts. It sells for $7 in a supermarket. Equivalent circuit sells for maybe $40 or $50 under the Belkin name. Or the same protector circuit sells for $150 from Monster. Monster has a long history of identifying scams. And then selling and equivalent product for even higher profits. If Monster is selling it, then be suspicious of all such products.

The 'whole house' protector is completely different. How protection has been done for over 100 years. And necessary to even protect that Belkin.

All appliances contain superior protection. Anything that might be on the power cord is already done better inside electronics. Sometimes, an adjacent protector can even compromise that internal protection. What do you expect from a $4 power strip with ten cent protector parts selling only because someone visually thought the box looked like quality.

A surge too small to overwhelm protection inside appliances can sometimes destroy that grossly undersized protector. Just another reason why so many recommend plug-in protectors. Meanwhile, a minimally sized 'whole house' protector starts at 50,000 amps. Therefore even direct lightning strikes (typically 20,000 amps) are harmlessly earthed without even damaging the protector. This sort of quality is only found in products from more responsible companies. Such as General Electric, Intermatic, ABB, Leviton, Siemens, and Square D. An effective solution from Cutler-Hammer sells in Lowes and Home Depot for less than $50. IOW more money put into the protector. Less profit margins also explain so little advertising.

Did you know your cable and phone lines already have the best protection available? Protection that is determined only by what you have provided? How to massively increase that protection? Spend less money for even better protection. Upgrade the only thing that does the surge protection - single point earth ground.

Well this only introduces the superior solution. You have plenty more to ask should you really want protection. Destructive surges are typically once every seven years. So after four or five years, others just know their ineffective protector must be superior. They feel it must be so. Or think blackout (zero voltage) is a surge (massively high voltage). How often are surges in your venues? Why would you spend 40 times or 150 times more money for ineffective plug-in devices that ... well where did anyone post the manufacturer spec that even claims surge protection? They cannot post what Belkin never claims. The superior 'whole house' protector costs about $1 per protected appliance.

Protection is always about where energy dissiaptes. Any recommendation that does not always discuss that energy and where it is absorbed - it is promoting a scam. A protector is only as effective as its earth ground. As proven by science and experience of over 100 years.

[westom]

More critically important numbers. The power strip must provide more than enough power. Makes no difference whether power is plugged into the wall or a power strip. All power strips must provide the full 15 amps also provided by any wall receptacle. That wall receptacle is also only 15 amps if on a 15 amps or 20 amp breaker.

Also critical for every power strip is its 15 amp circuit breaker. A best power strip is maybe $4 or $7 from Wal-Mart et al. That power strip is just as robust as the $150 power strip from Monster. And all must have the 15 amp breaker.

Makes no difference to the amp to be connected to a wall receptacle or via a power strip. Voltages still remain well above a minimum for any amp.

Only be concerned if power cycling of any appliance causes lights to dim. Even that is not a threat to any electronics. But dimming might indicate a serious human safety threat. Even when an air conditioner power cycles, incandescent bulbs should never change intensity.

Your dedicated circuit should be 12 AWG if it is a 20 amp circuit. For all that entertainment equipment, even a 15 amp circuit would have been more than sufficient. How do you know? Power an incandescent bulb from it. Does powering up all equipment cause light intensity change?

[Darksky]

Your post makes a lot of salient points. I am going to look into a whole house protector, as I am going to finish the basement and do a fair amount of wiring this winter. But how much more sensitive is the whole house protector than the Big (whole panel) breaker for the entire house. Also, isn't there a fusible link at the meter. Don't these two things do the same thing as the whole house arrestor? Isn't that their purpose? I am not even close to understnading electricity, but I know that the vast majority of homes do not have any more protection than the breaker box, I don't think there is such a rash of burnt appliances and equipment.

For my entertainment center's needs I wired two two gang outlets, one set on each side of the room (in case "she who must be obeyed" decided to rearrange). I put those four plugs on a dedicated 20A circuit and went up one size in wiring. We did the same thing in the kitchen for the fridge, microwave and small appliance outlets. I can't remember exactly but I think it was 14ga. I remeber it was heavier and harder to run because it was stiffer. I know we ran 12ga to the dryer and heavy tools in the garage. Or maybe it was 14 for general 12 for heavy and 10 for 220 & tools, I really don't remember.

I don't usually have problems with dimming when bigger things kick on. I will try the light buld test when I delve into my AV cabinet. (thanks for that)

One thing that I think was possibly overlooked in our discussion yesterday is insurance. I don't know about anyone else, but I have coverage in my homeowners policy for power surges / lightning strikes. This will pay for fried equipment. I called my agent this AM and he said you're covered, so I guess the deductible is what I am trying to protect. That and the endless hassle of fixing, changing, buying, setting up and then trying to get reimbursed...

I know that insurance is not the panacea to fix everything, so you need'nt chastise me for acknowledging it's existence.

My electrician friend pointed out the same thing you noted. That "all your high ticket items are protected somewhat in their design. He also said that where the porable protectors or even GFCI outlets come into play is the speed at which they react and their threshold for intervention.

I am not totally convinced that I have made a great investment in buying the PF-60 (or even the APC product for that matter). But I will be a lemming like the rest of us and buy into the "you need something" mindset.

That said: would there be any benefit from putting GFCI outlets on the plugs used for the AV system if you did not have a surge protector? I know that they quickly cut power to the appliance if there is a short (that's why they are required around sinks- right?) They are just a more sensitive breaker.

I reall like this board because of the quality of the discussions and the patience that the more educated have with us that are not as experienced- or in my case "slow"

Bradley

[bobbyt]

A GFCI doesn't trip faster than a standard circuit, it trips for a different reason.

Your normal breaker trips when there is excessive current. A GFCI trips when there's "leaked" current. IE, instead of flowing from hot to neutral, it's flowing elsewhere.

This is why they're in areas with water: you could have a short that results in current flowing through you, the water, and your piping but doesn't exceed 15/20A to trip the circuit. The GFCI sees the imbalance between current out and current in, and trips.

[westom]

Jul 23, 2011 13:47:51 GMT -5 Darksky said:

But how much more sensitive is the whole house protector than the Big (whole panel) breaker for the entire house. Also, isn't there a fusible link at the meter. Don't these two things do the same thing as the whole house arrestor? Isn't that their purpose? I am not even close to understnading electricity, but I know that the vast majority of homes do not have any more protection than the breaker box, I don't think there is such a rash of burnt appliances and equipment.

Damage is infrequent because destructive surges (that can overwhelm protection inside appliances) occurs maybe once every seven years.

Breakers trip AFTER damage has happened. So that damage does not result in a house fire; does not threaten human life.

Numbers that should always be in any useful response: breakers take tens of milliseconds or longer to trip. A surge is done in microseconds. That reason alone says why fusible links, fuses, and circuit breakers do no surge protection. Get manufacturer spec numbers for each solution. Ignore hearsay. Only fact that matters is spec numbers. No effective protection is claimed by any circuit breaker or protector adjacent to an appliance..

Will a millimeters gap created by a fuse or circuit breaker stop what three miles of sky could not? Damning questions to identify myths. Surges are never stopped or blocked. Especially not by millimeter gaps inside a switch.

Nothing stops a surge. Nothing. Repeated because the largest problem will be unlearning popular myths. Protection is only and always about where energy dissipates. Either that surge connects short (ie 'less than 10 feet') to earth outside the building. Or that surge is inside hunting for earth destructively via appliances. Any protector that would stop or block is ineffective.

A destructive surge is hundreds of thousands of joules. Protection means some wires connect to earth via a protector (ie AC electric, telephone). Other cables have even better protection by connecting only with a wire (satellite dish, cable TV). Some systems do not even need any protectors. But every layer of protection always has what absorbs energy. Single point earth ground. Protectors that connect energy short to earth are your only useful solutions.

Sensitivity is irrelevant. Most important is how short (low impedance) that connection is to a best earth ground. Short as even defined by critical numbers.

Another important number from the previous post. A minimal 'whole house' protector for AC mains is at least 50,000 amps.

The most critical component in every protection system is not yet discussed. Earthing that must both meet and exceed post 1990 National Electrical code. Earthing is where most of your attention is focused.

How to quickly identify an ineffective protector. 1) It has no dedicated wire for a low impedance ('less than 10 foot') connection to single point ground. And 2) the manufacturer avoids all discussion about earthing. Those two rules quickly identify many 'magic boxes' that sit next to an appliance to make hundreds of thousands of joules 'magically' disappear. Read spec numbers for each 'magic' box. How does it absorb hundreds of thousands of joules? It doesn't even claim protection from typically destructive surges. Why does hearsay recommend without any numbers?

Protection is always about where energy dissipates. Interior wiring changes will do nothing for this solution. A protector is only as effective as its earth ground. This paragraph quickly separates ineffective and expensive protectors from less expensive, effective ones.

[Darksky]

Westom- I am so glad you chimed in here. More questions

Should I install an external lighning ground on the house? (the steel spike on the roof with heavy cabling to earth) I remeber seeing them on older farm houses that are in the country- like I live now... I realize this is kind of a seperate issue from the spikes we have been discussing.

What about grounding at the meter box? If I remember correctly there used to be ground wires that went to earth there as well in older construction.

Lastly: What about power conditioning, most of these higher end portable units claim they "trim" the voltage to exactly 120 as opposed to the higher variances found in lines and then condition the energy removing irregularities (for lack of a better word). Does this serve any purpose other than to seperate the user from his wallet?

Many people claim great changes in their systems performance with the addition of these devices. While I know that the listeners ear is the only true measure of sound quality when it comes to music. I fear that pride of ownership can overtake reason.

I am not just being cheap. I am trying to be pragmatic. Think of it this way- THere are those that think everyone on this forum has "drank the Kool Aid" for even considering Emotiva amps because they are providing products that work (excedingly well in my mind) for unheard of prices. Here we are coming to realize that we don't "need" a five thousand dollar amplifier to be able to listen to music.

Is it possible that the power strip manufacturers are preying on ignorance as well?

[richtx6]

Great bunch of posts. Just bought a pf30 to plug all the pre equipment into. Amazon has the best deals on both of these units.

[westom]

Jul 24, 2011 11:42:15 GMT -5 Darksky said:

Should I install an external lighning ground on the house? (the steel spike on the roof with heavy cabling to earth) ... What about grounding at the meter box? If I remember correctly there used to be ground wires that went to earth there as well in older construction.

Surges hunt for earth. One path is from sky, through wood, to earth (ie Ben Franklin's church steeple). So that lightning does not conduct to earth destructively via a building, give lightning a better path to earth via a lightning rod. The rod does not do protection. Earthing the rod connects to what does protection.

A second path from cloud to earth is via utility lines down the street. Destructively via household appliances. Or harmlessly earthed before entering by a 'whole house' protector. The protector does not do protection. Earthing the protector connects to what does protection.

All buildings must have an earth ground for human safety. That earths a meter box and main breaker box. (Some older homes are missing this essential ground.) Only one incoming AC wire is earthed as required by code. Surge protection means all wires must be earthed. One directly (as defined by code). And all others earthed short via a 'whole house' protector ... to exceed code.

Single point earth ground must both meet and exceed code requirements. That is where hundreds of thousands of joules to dissipate harmlessly. Every incoming wire (telephone, cable TV, satellite dish) must also connect short (ie 'less than 10 feet') to that same earth ground. Only visual inspection can confirm that. Otherwise protection is compromised. Earthing must both meet and exceed code requirements.


Best power conditioning is already found inside appliances. For example, electronics takes the cleanest power, converts it to 'dirty' and higher voltage power. Then cleans that 'dirtier' power into stable and low voltage DC. Incandescent bulbs can dim to 50% intensity. That is still ideal power to all electronics due to the so many conversions, filtering, and conditioning already done inside electronics.

Either low voltage DC stays rock solid and stable. Or that electronic appliance powers off. Anything done on the power cord does not change those only two conditions. Perfectly ideal power or power off.

What do electronics do to the cleanest AC power from the most expensive conditioner? Converts it to well over 300 volts and converts that to radio waves. Electronics routinely undoes any 'conditioning' performed on its power cord. Then does power conditioning all over again - and better.


Take a $4 power strip. Add some ten cent protector parts. It sells in supermarkets for $7. Or for $40 or $70 because the box looks expensive. Similar circuit. Massive profit margin.

Monster has a long history of identifying such markets. Then selling equivalent products for even higher profits. Monster strip protectors have been seen for up to $150. Same circuit sold by a supermarket for $7. But many only hear advertising and subjective claims; ignore numeric specs. It's more expensive; so it must be better? Therefore many 'assume' a $150 Monster must be better.

Is a power strip better? Then it claims protection from each type of surge in its numeric specs. Then it says how its 2 centimeter part stopped what three miles of sky could not. Then it says how hundreds of thousands of joules magically disappear when it does not have a short and dedicated connection to earth.

There is no replacement for critical numbers. Earthing means every incoming wire somehow connects low impedance (ie 'less than 10 foot') connection to single point earth ground.

[Darksky]

Westom- You are getting above my ability to understand.
First:
I believe you are saying that "on cord" conditioning that remains AC is worthless. Yes or No?

Second:
I am coming into the fold for a Whole house surge protector, but I need some clearer instruction. On my home I have a square D feed through 200A box that feeds a panel (General Electric TM4020CCU) in my mechanical room. This winter I plan on using the feed through feature on the main and installing another sub panel to power my basement (finishing it this winter) and new deck. Which whole house surge protector should I be looking at? Not theory, actual product. Which one. A quick search produces three pages of results. The only one that looks even remotely capable is the Leviton 51120 (three phase capable). I have no idea if these are the "right" things.

Thanks for your help and obvious knowledge base.

Does anyone else have any input?

I will be the guinea pig for this particular venture. With the proper direction, I will have one of these things on my home...

[westom]

Jul 25, 2011 0:37:37 GMT -5 Darksky said:

First:
I believe you are saying that on cord conditioning that remains AC is worthless. Yes or No?

As I said repeatedly, "All appliances contain superior protection. Anything that might be on the power cord is already done better inside electronics. Sometimes, an adjacent protector can even compromise that internal protection."

It can be confusing if you have not yet disposed of popular myths that promote plug-in protectors. ‘Yes or no’ is a deceptive answer since any answer without ‘reasons why’ should be ignored. The reason why is more important and provided. 'Yes or no' also does not discuss other electrical anomalies. Some already made irrelevant inside appliances. Others that are addressed/solved elsewhere.

Jul 25, 2011 0:37:37 GMT -5 Darksky said:

Second:
I am coming into the fold for a Whole house surge protector, but I need some clearer instruction. On my home I have a square D feed through 200A box that feeds a panel (General Electric TM4020CCU) in my mechanical room. This winter I plan on using the feed through feature on the main and installing another sub panel to power my basement (finishing it this winter) and new deck. Which whole house surge protector should I be looking at?

Any 'whole house' protector from these and other more responsible companies work. "General Electric, Intermatic, ABB, Leviton, Siemens, and Square D. An effective solution from Cutler-Hammer sells in Lowes and Home Depot for less than $50."

Bottom line requirement was also posted: "Another important number from the previous post. A minimal 'whole house' protector for AC mains is at least 50,000 amps."

A 100,000 amp protector increases protector life expectancy exponentially. Might be necessary in a very high surge environment such as one destructive surge every two or three years. Important numbers for a protector - 50,000 amps - defines how many decades it is still working.

How well does any protector work during any one surge? How short is its connecting wire (a repeatedly mentioned 'less than 10 foot’ connection)? How much better (upgraded) is single point earth ground?

Protection during any one surge is defined by the earthing. Protector life expectancy is defined by a protector's current rating. An executive summary is that simple.

The details. A protector is simple dumb science. The art is in earthing. Worry less about the protector. Almost all your attention should be focused on what does protection - earthing.

If I did not say it before, the hardest part is unlearning so many popular myths created by advertising and hearsay. Learn that earthing (not a protector) is your greatest concern. When done, every wire inside every incoming cable connects short (ie 'less than 10 feet') to earth. Cable TV does that only with a wire. Telephone already has a 'whole house' protector installed for free. But only as effective as the single point ground that you provide.

Each (of three?) AC wires also connect low impedance to earth. Every AC wire must make that earthing connection.

If a ground wire from a breaker box goes up over the foundation and down to earth, then protection has been compromised. Again, it’s about earthing; not a protector. That wire is too long. Has sharp bends going over the foundation. Is bundled with other non-grounding wires. Reroute it through the foundation and down to single point ground. Because earthing - not a protector – does the protection.

Protection is always about where energy dissipates. A protector is only as effective as its earth ground.

[indyscammer]

I bought a Belkin PF30 a year ago after a power outage killed my Wii (Emo equipment survived). I am cheap and it was the cheapest unit I could find. It is powering everything now (including my UPA-7) and so far no worries. Looks nice too.

I figure having something between the wall and the equipment can only help in the event of an event. ;D

[Darksky]

Westom, thank you. I will look for a whole house protector rated at 100,000 amps, like the Cutler Hammer and will earth it correctly with a direct connection that is less than 10' in length, kept seperate from other inferior ground wires.

I appologize for being unable to seperate some of the information you have posted into the applicable column. I do see where you laid out the guidlines for the protector earlier.

I appreciate the Zen like quality to your answer to a yes or no question. "yes or no does not matter without reason"

I enjoy your insight into this matter and your posts make me happy.

[Darksky]

The PF60 Has arrived. A detailed Review to follow.

Initially I can say it looks great. Well packed, heavy and well made. I am excited to put it into service. The 12v switched outlets are going to be very useful for me.

[Deleted]

I have a fp60 and a fp30. pop the tops off and it's a different layout. Not to say it's a totally different design but everything in the 60 is bigger and looks to be much better quality. I got my fp60 for $200 cdn from ncix.ca about a year ago. For the price I paid, I'm a happy camper.

[selkec]

N8....What do you have plugged into each?

All I know is my APC H10 can not handle the draw of my subwoofer. And also of my amp. I never had any problems with the H15. My voltage fluctuates alot inthis old ass rental house and neighborhood. I do not believe Belkin boosts the voltage when low or I may have that backwards. Anyways. Does yours ever shut down from too much current draw?

[Deleted]

I only have my components plugged in. All my amps are plugged into the wall

[RichGuy]

Jul 30, 2011 15:15:31 GMT -5 selkec said:

N8....What do you have plugged into each?

All I know is my APC H10 can not handle the draw of my subwoofer. And also of my amp. I never had any problems with the H15. My voltage fluctuates alot inthis old ass rental house and neighborhood. I do not believe Belkin boosts the voltage when low or I may have that backwards. Anyways. Does yours ever shut down from too much current draw?

I have both my XPA-2 and XPA-5 plugged into my PF-60's high current outlets, before that it was an XPA-3 and XPA-5, before that it was my XPA-3 and RT-10d sub.
I also have all my other equipment plugged into the PF-60 and it has never had the slightest problem with anything, it is never bothered by the load and everything works at their best when plugged into the PF-60.

[Deleted]

For anyone else still looking for a PC, my Furman Elite 15DMi is so beautiful and so perfectly matched to my Emo gear (a match made in heaven) that is virtually brings tears to my eyes!

I bought it about a year ago for $295 from Advanced Lights. com, but they got smart and raised the price to about $329 plus shipping ($500, MSRP) .

www.furmansound.com/product.php?div=02&id=ELITE-15DMi

[selkec]

N8 you have alot amps. no wonder you dont plug them into the surge or power conditoner. From what I can find the Belkin and Fruman are not really conditioners but more like surge protectors and I cant even find the joulle rating for the furman. With all the voltage spikes and brown outs. Im talking fluctuations from 110 to 127 and 50 times estimate a day in the summer. I think the apch15 would be more suited for me but. Maybr not. Ill have to read up more as I like both the belkin and furmans looks with the emo gear. But for price the Belkin is winning as of now.

[savjac]

Jul 22, 2011 10:55:03 GMT -5 RuggSkins said:

Power is an issue... when one has thousands invested into ones audio/video system, and within an instant, a brown-out or a power surge can damage the investment one made into their amplifiers, processors, subs and speakers... can one skimp on a power solution? IMHO No.

A power spike after a brown-out on a very warm summer day (due to everyone's AC usage) damaged one of my XPA-1s and one of my Gallo 3.1s. Both companies exhibited excellent customer service and repaired the products under warranty. Although I did have to pay to ship the products back to the manufacturers. Next time I may not be so lucky! I took control of the power issue.

I installed a "power re-generation system" with battery backup takes my system off the power grid altogether. It takes the 110V in, converts it to 12 volts, then filters the power and produces a perfect sine wave and a constant 110v of clean and constant power to the entire system, not only protecting the system, but also improving the sound of the system and providing all the power the system requires. Was it cheap? Heck no. At around $3,000 list price it isn't cheap. Does it improve the sound of my system? Yes. Does it protect my system? Yes. Was it worth my investment in the Power Regeneration System as insurance against damaging 5 Speaker Gallo system, JL Audio Fathom F113, Emotiva XPA-1 ( times two), Emotiva MPS-1 and DMC-1, , and LaserVue TV... not to mention all of the other devices such as game systems, CD & DVD players & Music servers?

You tell me... when you invest in having quality sound, why would you skimp on; a) protecting that investment, and b) not conditioning the power to allow your system to sound its best?

These are expensive but I have a similar one called a Powevar. They are used as hospitals. AC in, it is then filtered into DC and then sent out as AC sign wave to the components. Silent backgrounds, perfect voltage at all times and NO spikes in voltage. Now I suppose I can still get a strike with lightning but that is protected as well.
If not wanting to spend this money, I highly recommend the Belcin PF60. Mine has worked flawlessly for many years.