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Post by garbulky on Apr 20, 2018 11:40:22 GMT -5
One noe to remember and take into account garbulky , CDs fom that era wee recorded with different emphasis when recording. Priorities were much different hen recordings of today. Remember he loudness wars? Wait, strike that! Remember reading about the loudness wars? LOL Just wanted to remind you that things are different then they once were,,,,,,,and yet some are not. Yeah some of the CD's I was listening to were from the 90's while the others were modern. |
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Post by Boomzilla on Apr 24, 2018 5:54:11 GMT -5
So we try an Yggdrasil now?
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Post by brutiarti on Apr 24, 2018 8:14:52 GMT -5
So we try an Yggdrasil now? It would be interesting to hear your opinion boom, specially if you didn't like the gungnir multibit. |
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Post by pedrocols on Apr 24, 2018 8:39:43 GMT -5
Boomzilla audiobillThis is a review of the Denon DCD 660 vs the DC-1.  This was a/b'd using the DC-1's analog preamp. This is a late 80's CD player that uses a true multibit DAC the PCM 61p which I don't think is made anymore. It's an 18 bit DAC. Unfrotunately age has taken its toll on the mechanical parts of the CD transport mechanism but some coaxing did allow it to play a Beatles CD. Well the first thing is that you know what, this is from the late 80's and I'm listening to a fantastic sounding DC-1 DAC at least 30 years later. Well what's changed? Surprisingly not as much you would think. But also the late 80's did stuff modern dacs can't quite manage. I tried to plug in the spdif digital cox in to the Denon as well so I could a/b it with the DC-1 until I realized.....oh wait, there is no digital out. External DACs didn't exist. I guess <ahem> MIKE MOFFAT of Schiit and Theta had yet to come out and produce the world's first external consumer DAC! So since the late 80's didn't have their Schiit in place, there was no digital outputs available. (Thank you, I'll be here all night.) The first thing that stands out is that true multibit DOES have a different sound to it. It's in the timing. Things appear instantaneously. While with the DC-1 and other DS DACs I've heard there is a subtle haze. And things aren't quite as rock solid in space. Your brain has a harder time placing the instruments in space "exactly." Bass impacts and mid range impacts are harder on the Denon they feel timed better. While on the DC-1 it's like the bass impact and a simultaneous music note happens just a hair apart, "smearing" things just a bit timewise. Drums with the Beatles were better reproduced with the Denon but the cymbals were just a bit too harsh. Having said that, in its current stone cold state, the Denon multibit dac is a little bit on the harsh side of treble. So I doubt I'll be able to call it a keeper unit. The Gungnir multibit is probably a superior showing for multibit DACs. However listening to this one makes me understand how multibit dacs like the Gungnir Multibit did sound different. I don't think I fully appreciated it - the timing ability of the Gungnir Multibit. I find myself questioning myself. How can a dac have better timing than another? These clocks are incredibly precise nowadays. There's no way your ear could hear a difference. But there it is. There is a timing difference. This ability is something I haven't heard from delta sigma DACs. One thing I will conceded is that, I wonder if the slightly harsh treble is playing a part in this perception of "timing." So the jury is still out, but it does make me look at audio from a new perspective. Just like with the Gungnir playing some classical music makes violin vibrato stand out in ways that the DC-1 wasn't able to do. It's weird because the sound is the same. But yet it's different. More solid. The instruments expressions come across more clearly in time somehow. Anyway, this thing does a really nice job with violins, its constantly changing dynamics on the tone of violins is something that this Denon just does without hestations. I enjoyed my time with the Denon. Unfortunately its limitation as being a pure CD player with some age related issues means I probably won't be able to use it. But it certainly has an allure to its sound. I suppose I'm going to have to save up for a Ygdrassil. Something tells me I'm just putting off the inevitable. I might take my Denon DCD 660 out of the closet and give it a listen when I get home tonight 🤔 |
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Post by garbulky on Apr 24, 2018 9:03:09 GMT -5
Boomzilla audiobillThis is a review of the Denon DCD 660 vs the DC-1. This was a/b'd using the DC-1's analog preamp. This is a late 80's CD player that uses a true multibit DAC the PCM 61p which I don't think is made anymore. It's an 18 bit DAC. Unfrotunately age has taken its toll on the mechanical parts of the CD transport mechanism but some coaxing did allow it to play a Beatles CD. Well the first thing is that you know what, this is from the late 80's and I'm listening to a fantastic sounding DC-1 DAC at least 30 years later. Well what's changed? Surprisingly not as much you would think. But also the late 80's did stuff modern dacs can't quite manage. I tried to plug in the spdif digital cox in to the Denon as well so I could a/b it with the DC-1 until I realized.....oh wait, there is no digital out. External DACs didn't exist. I guess <ahem> MIKE MOFFAT of Schiit and Theta had yet to come out and produce the world's first external consumer DAC! So since the late 80's didn't have their Schiit in place, there was no digital outputs available. (Thank you, I'll be here all night.) The first thing that stands out is that true multibit DOES have a different sound to it. It's in the timing. Things appear instantaneously. While with the DC-1 and other DS DACs I've heard there is a subtle haze. And things aren't quite as rock solid in space. Your brain has a harder time placing the instruments in space "exactly." Bass impacts and mid range impacts are harder on the Denon they feel timed better. While on the DC-1 it's like the bass impact and a simultaneous music note happens just a hair apart, "smearing" things just a bit timewise. Drums with the Beatles were better reproduced with the Denon but the cymbals were just a bit too harsh. Having said that, in its current stone cold state, the Denon multibit dac is a little bit on the harsh side of treble. So I doubt I'll be able to call it a keeper unit. The Gungnir multibit is probably a superior showing for multibit DACs. However listening to this one makes me understand how multibit dacs like the Gungnir Multibit did sound different. I don't think I fully appreciated it - the timing ability of the Gungnir Multibit. I find myself questioning myself. How can a dac have better timing than another? These clocks are incredibly precise nowadays. There's no way your ear could hear a difference. But there it is. There is a timing difference. This ability is something I haven't heard from delta sigma DACs. One thing I will conceded is that, I wonder if the slightly harsh treble is playing a part in this perception of "timing." So the jury is still out, but it does make me look at audio from a new perspective. Just like with the Gungnir playing some classical music makes violin vibrato stand out in ways that the DC-1 wasn't able to do. It's weird because the sound is the same. But yet it's different. More solid. The instruments expressions come across more clearly in time somehow. Anyway, this thing does a really nice job with violins, its constantly changing dynamics on the tone of violins is something that this Denon just does without hestations. I enjoyed my time with the Denon. Unfortunately its limitation as being a pure CD player with some age related issues means I probably won't be able to use it. But it certainly has an allure to its sound. I suppose I'm going to have to save up for a Ygdrassil. Something tells me I'm just putting off the inevitable. I might take my Denon DCD 660 out of the closet and give it a listen when I get home tonight 🤔 You should! Try some classical music on it. It does take about a day of being left turned on to do its best though. |
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Post by garbulky on Apr 24, 2018 9:05:50 GMT -5
So we try an Yggdrasil now? Hard to say. It needs to be matched well. Your audio research gear and Mac gear seems to be pretty good. My question is that the Gungnir didn't work too dynamically in your room though an Oppo did. So I'm questioning how well the Yggy's tonal signature would work for you. Perhaps with more room treatment. |
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Post by pedrocols on Apr 25, 2018 20:29:27 GMT -5
I might take my Denon DCD 660 out of the closet and give it a listen when I get home tonight 🤔 You should! Try some classical music on it. It does take about a day of being left turned on to do its best though. Well this thing has warmed up for a day. First impression I could easily live with it if my only source of music was CDs. Bass seems a little weaker than with the DAC however but it seems quieter. Vocals are very clear.  |
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Post by garbulky on Apr 25, 2018 21:16:05 GMT -5
You should! Try some classical music on it. It does take about a day of being left turned on to do its best though. Well this thing has warmed up for a day. First impression I could easily live with it if my only source of music was CDs. Bass seems a little weaker than with the DAC however but it seems quieter. Vocals are very clear. Nice impressions! I felt that though the low bass and drums had a lot of slam to it, the dac lacks a bit of warmth. It did do a bit better after a few more days in that respect but not very much though. I wish mine had the remote.  |
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Post by novisnick on Apr 25, 2018 21:21:48 GMT -5
Well this thing has warmed up for a day. First impression I could easily live with it if my only source of music was CDs. Bass seems a little weaker than with the DAC however but it seems quieter. Vocals are very clear. Nice impressions! I felt that though the low bass and drums had a lot of slam to it, the dac lacks a bit of warmth. It did do a bit better after a few more days in that respect but not very much though. I wish mine had the remote. Cheap Harmony remote should cure what ails you. |
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Post by garbulky on Apr 25, 2018 22:32:19 GMT -5
Nice impressions! I felt that though the low bass and drums had a lot of slam to it, the dac lacks a bit of warmth. It did do a bit better after a few more days in that respect but not very much though. I wish mine had the remote. Cheap Harmony remote should cure what ails you. I have the harmony hub but it didn't work. It recognized "Denon CD player" but it didn't work. |
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Post by novisnick on Apr 25, 2018 23:06:07 GMT -5
Cheap Harmony remote should cure what ails you. I have the harmony hub but it didn't work. It recognized "Denon CD player" but it didn't work. Ive found that my older Harmony 300 and the PC site have worked pretty good over the years with older gear. But, if its not in their library I’m not sure where to go, perhaps some other Denon gear codecs. |
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Post by Boomzilla on Apr 26, 2018 12:11:06 GMT -5
Time to yank the Gar into the 21st Century with a Gen. 2 analog-upgrade Schiit Yggy.
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Post by garbulky on Apr 26, 2018 17:03:20 GMT -5
Time to yank the Gar into the 21st Century with a Gen. 2 analog-upgrade Schiit Yggy. Lol, I know right. I'm afraid that once I hear your Yggy, it's going to ruin audio for me. The "unattainable"! |
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Post by novisnick on Apr 26, 2018 17:22:38 GMT -5
Time to yank the Gar into the 21st Century with a Gen. 2 analog-upgrade Schiit Yggy. Lol, I know right. I'm afraid that once I hear your Yggy, it's going to ruin audio for me. The "unattainable"! has a Yggy?  |
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Post by Boomzilla on Apr 26, 2018 18:10:53 GMT -5
Never said that (yet...).
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Post by garbulky on Apr 27, 2018 14:30:53 GMT -5
Multibit vs Delta Sigma
After spending extended periods of listening to CD's from the Denon DCD 660, I've come to some thoughts regarding multibit versus delta sigma. I've been able to A/B listening between the DC-1 and the Denon DCD 660. I consider the DC-1 to be one of the best DS DACs I've listened to even though I've listened to about two or three others that are right at its level.
And it comes down to listening preferences.
With the DC-1 there's a bit more warmth, a bit more roundness in instruments, some more subtle detail.
With the late 1980's Denon's Burr brown PCM 61 18 bit multibit dac, it's all about timing, dynamics and very solid soundstage.
With delta sigma there's a sense of vagueness despite a contradictory sensation of a more subtle details. Getting a center channel image nailed with speaker placement is harder, getting proper smooth detailed left and right pans is harder. But once you get it, it sounds pretty great.
The multibit stuff isn't quite as sensitive to this. It's easier to do speaker placement. And honestly I think this comes down to timing.
When instruments appear they are anchored quite firmly in the soundstage.
When an instrument starts playing it's always anchored in the position it was. It doesn't float around in the treble quite as much. There isn't as much wavering.
Also the dynamics are simply very quick. That leading edge just appears, dynamic expressions of the musical instruments are just relayed right there.
What this means is that your mind does not have to focus on what's going on in the song. When I listen to my DC-1, there's a lot of detail but I have to try to focus on the melody lines. In an orchestra I'll miss somethings because my mind has to actually focus on what I want to. On the Denon, I honestly don't have to focus. I hear all the melodies.
You can tell these in orchestras. The different instruments are more easily discerned. Vibratos can be traced to individual instruments more easily in quartets. Drums have stronger punch.
And I think that's the real strength of multibit. It's that timing and dynamics that reveal just a very clear soundstage that's solid.
The Gungnir multibit had some of this timing but I never got over its harhser treble tone and lack of subtle low level detail to give it a chance. Its lack of remote really turned me off. Perhaps the Ygdrassil is the holy grail.
Who knows. But I think my future lies in multibit. All I need to do is find the right one.
If you've ever listened to a good vinyl recording, you may know what I'm saying about the feeling of timing and the ability to follow melodies. Multibit is a bit different. You don't have the noise and mild hiss, it feels more like your listening to a tape.
So this leads me to the confusing conundrum. Measurement wise the Delta Sigma dacs ARE better. They are much more linear than multibit units at low level signals -90 db. They don't have to mess around with things like "glitching." They can also produce very nice noise floors - less spikes etc.
I listened to a test that demonstrated what is actually a realistic dynamic range, It said put this volume at the loudest you can listen at. Then the volume is simply reduced by 6 or so db at a time. I realized for the most part our music listening in dynamic range is around 40-50 db. It was a simple test but startling to me in its importance in our listening. There was a reason why they originally tried to make CD's 14 bit format instead of 16 bit.
Below that sounds quickly become very very quiet to the point you can't hear them. More SNR is important for silence of hiss and stuff. But the real action happens in that 40 db of range. So if one can't nail a huge amount of timing and detail and accuracy in that range then that's where the failure lies. So in that respect multibit doesn't have to worry quite as much in the much lower noise specs and features where it doesn't perform as well.
In most of the tests we see I don't see a whole lot of detail going in to timing or perhaps reproduction of real world music signals. Whatever it is, multibit is able to do this just a bit better than delta sigma units in my opinion at least in that range in terms of dynamics and timing with the soundstage.
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Post by Boomzilla on Apr 27, 2018 15:56:09 GMT -5
Yggy, Yggy, Gar's gettin' a Yggy! LOL
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Post by garbulky on Apr 27, 2018 15:58:04 GMT -5
Yggy, Yggy, Gar's gettin' a Yggy! LOL Maybe in a decade when I can save enough for it! But yeah, that's my goal. |
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Post by audiobill on Apr 29, 2018 5:56:45 GMT -5
Excellent writeup, Gar. Fully agree with your observations.
And when you add a tubed rectifier and regulator to banish solid state hash, and a tubed output for soundstage depth, you’re really there....
My review of the Audio Note 4.1 dac soon.......
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Post by GreenKiwi on May 1, 2018 1:02:14 GMT -5
I look forward to hearing your thoughts about the yggy.
You're talk of CD Players making me want to find my Marantz CD-67.
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