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Post by garbulky on Feb 18, 2019 21:02:59 GMT -5
Today I decided to AB the HD600 vs the HD 700.
Using this piece:
The differences were pretty obvious.
The HD600 was clearly quiter on hiss than the HD 700 where the his is very audible. Because of the lower noise floor I was able to hear some tiny details a little more clearly. I felt that there was a bit of a darker sound to everything with the HD600.
Then I compared it with the HD700 and the differences sort of stood out. First clearly the HD600's were not able to handle powerful dynamics. How strange I'm saying it because I found them to be quite capable! And I think that's what really stood out. With the power of the large drum, I could hear the driver of the HD600 struggle to handle it.
Compared to the hd600, the HD700 didn't sweat the powerful dynamics of the drum. The soundstage was clearly bigger. Everything felt bigger and better controlled.
The tonality is also not dark, almost on the bright side.
Clearly the HD600 is no slouch. I've used these headphones for ages and I love them. They shrug off all contenders that came to challenge it. But the HD 700 proves itself to be a different breed altogether. Their strength clearly lies in a superior driver. Its capable of much higher volume levels. It's able to hold itself during the leading edge of transients significantly better. Basically it can portary the large scale swings of instruments including the leading edge of a note. But at the same time it can still keep the instrument inside an even larger soundspace of the whole recording.
If the upcoming class A Emotiva headphone amp can pull the same separation and ease in the soundstage as the A-100 but with lower noise, I think I would have to purchase it.
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Post by Boomzilla on Feb 18, 2019 23:27:17 GMT -5
Excuse me, garbulky, but may I point out that if you're hearing hiss on the 700 but not on the 600, the HISS IS THERE IN THE PROGRAM. The 700s are reproducing it; the 600s are not. Why? Might it be that the 700s have a slight frequency-response peak right there at the frequency of your hiss? Not too likely... The fact remains that the 700s are not CREATING the hiss - it's already there. But your 600s aren't reproducing it. That alone argues that the 700s are superior to the 600s pretty definitively. Happy listening! |
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Post by garbulky on Feb 19, 2019 0:02:57 GMT -5
Excuse me, garbulky, but may I point out that if you're hearing hiss on the 700 but not on the 600, the HISS IS THERE IN THE PROGRAM. The 700s are reproducing it; the 600s are not. Why? Might it be that the 700s have a slight frequency-response peak right there at the frequency of your hiss? Not too likely... The fact remains that the 700s are not CREATING the hiss - it's already there. But your 600s aren't reproducing it. That alone argues that the 700s are superior to the 600s pretty definitively. Happy listening! Hi there. Thanks I am having a great time. It's due to the noise floor of my A-100 in direct drive mode. When I bypass the resistors and put it in direct drive mode it puts out all the power of the amp with the drawback of increasing the noise floor. I can hear it even with the RCA jacks disconnected from the amp. The HD700 is 150 ohms. But the hd600 are 300 ohms which reduce the noise floor and I don't hear the hiss as much. I bought some impedance increases which does reduce the noise floor significantly but also robs the music of a little bit of the good sound. |
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Post by Boomzilla on Feb 19, 2019 3:53:38 GMT -5
OK - That makes sense - the amplifier is creating the noise, but only with the new headphones due to their lower impedance? If so, the bottom line is that the headphone amp you're using needs a 300 ohm (or higher) impedance to operate in its performance envelope. You'll need a new headphone amplifier capable of driving the new cans without hiss to get their best.
My Sennheiser HD650s are 300-ohms. If you'd like to sell me your Emotiva amp, I'd buy it to use with my phones. Just let me know.
Also, as I mentioned in my PM, I may be getting a German DAC/headphone amp for review. I'll be listening to it with my 300-ohm headphones, but when it comes, would you test it with your 150-ohm phones also?
I'm also hoping (fingers crossed) that Emotiva will be releasing their Stealth DC-2 sometime in the near future - That might be a contender for your HD700 headphones too!
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Post by garbulky on Feb 28, 2019 17:51:08 GMT -5
Now spinning some Wynton and Ellis Marsalis with a vintage Denon DCD 660 CD player with a multibit PCM 61P DAC with the HD 700s. Liking the results  |
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Post by novisnick on Feb 28, 2019 19:40:12 GMT -5
Now spinning some Wynton and Ellis Marsalis with a vintage Denon DCD 660 CD player with a multibit PCM 61P DAC with the HD 700s. Liking the results Love the music! So glad your happy with that setup! ENJOY 😊 |
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Post by garbulky on Mar 4, 2019 1:36:22 GMT -5
More updates! I've been trying this mod for the hD700 from modhouse.
It is cheap ($15), easy and reversible.
First of all applying both the big pad and smaller felt ring significantly knocked out the hiss coming from the amp. The bass was also very powerful and the treble was dulled a good bit. However the life of the headphones was robbed. It sounded like a better version of the HD600 rather than a headphone in its own right.
Using just the small felt ring around the driver was a much better match. You could argue that the result was quite a bit more neutral. However perhaps it's not a perfect result. A little bit of dulling details, that upper end air and harmonics a little bit dulled. I think my compalint is that before I felt everything was simply laid bare right in front of me. And now, I have to work a little to hear the details. Perhaps the slight brightness of the HD700 was its signature, its strength. I don't know. It was like listening to two different versions of the HD700.
But it is true that it did surprisingly take care of brightness. So if somebody REALLY doesn't like the HD700's, then there is a very cheap mod that knocks it out.
I'm going to give this one a few days and see how it goes.
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Post by garbulky on Mar 6, 2019 19:57:28 GMT -5
www.essenceelectrostatic.com/product/hdacc-ii-4k/  This is what's missing in modern dacs. The HDMI port. This unit acts as a passthrough for 4k HDMI 2.0a and dolby vision enabled content. And it costs $700 which I think is reasonable. Without proper HDMI capabilities, we are losing serious connectivity and relegating DACS towards music only streamers. Right now if I was to upgrade video equipment my DC-1 would lose connectivity to a 4k blu ray player, and multiple streaming video devices like Apple TV, Amazon Fire TV. Likely the next gen video game consoles will similarly lose connectivity to most two channel dacs out there. Some people like me are not itnerested in multichannel setups. We are want very high quality two channel systems for our audio and video needs. We don't want to have lower fidelity much more expensive multichannel processors. Seriously I have no interest in buying a $2500 processor to have slightly lower SN ratio than my DC-1. So now essenceelectrostatic has come out with it. I hope other dac manufacturers take a cue.
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Post by Boomzilla on Mar 7, 2019 7:14:05 GMT -5
No Ethernet input. Bah-Humbug!
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Post by garbulky on Mar 7, 2019 12:10:27 GMT -5
No Ethernet input. Bah-Humbug! That's for a nice dedicated streamer! For me that makes sense because with ethernet connections there's a lot of updates that happens as times change. Therefore, a dedicated streamer that keeps up with these changes in formats is better than a DAC where it's just an add on and isn't updated (and then you have to buy a dedicated streamer anyway). Roon is a good example. Roon is being added to several dedicated streamers due to it being an update. |
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Post by garbulky on Mar 9, 2019 2:50:02 GMT -5
When the female bass player in your Indian Fusion band shows up ready to party....
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Post by novisnick on Mar 9, 2019 13:44:18 GMT -5
Enjoyed thoroughly! Thanks 😁🎶🎶🎶
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Post by garbulky on Mar 17, 2019 21:35:25 GMT -5
I've said it before. But this plain jane from the early 90's  is one HECK OF A DAC! This PCM 61 mulitibit unit just sounds ridiculously good especially for instrumental music. I don't know how it does it. It sells online for about $60-100. If you spin discs and haven't tried a good R2R CD player, this is a no brainer imo. Only thing is it doesn't have a digital output. The DS DAC of the DC-1 (which I like ) has s smaller vertical size compared to the Denon which has a more open/larger sized sound vertically. I think this is one of the differences when listening to multiibit. Chain Denon DCD 660-> DC-1 analog input-> Emotiva A-100-> Sennheiser HD700. Right now listening to some acoustic jazz and the quality is just great. Pure relaxation. |
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Post by garbulky on Apr 15, 2019 2:55:09 GMT -5
My thoughts on the XMC-1 discontinuation of atmos DTS and upgrading to XMMC-2 for $650. Overall, first I am an Emo fanboy. This is probably the best decision Emotiva could have made. I can't see most owners being dissapointed. But.... Emotiva's wording on the XMC-1 in 2013 "the XMC-1 provides a flexible and expandable platform that will make it current and technologically relevant for years to come. We are also committed to continuously developing and expanding the capabilities and features of the XMC-1 over time with our ongoing Enhancement Program. Then in 2015 " Forget planned obsolescence. The XMC-1 is completely modular and upgradable to meet future standards. All main system components can be upgraded as needed, while our custom Linux software assures expandability for years to come. The Emotiva XMC-1 – The promise, fulfilled." The words are "COMPLETELY MODULAR AND UPGRADABLE TO MEET FUTURE STANDARDS" This what happens when one makes the promise of upgradability - it's not that easy. Just because it's modular doesn't mean it's guaranteed to stay current. Let's be real. Was the modular upgradability over the years promise fulfilled? No it was not. The unit is discontinued. You want an upgrade, you'll be getting rid of the box. Was it impressive that the HDMI upgrades were sold? Yes. When the XMC-1 was announced, it said specifically that you wouldn't be throwing away the box and getting a new one. That was the draw. I immediately thought that seems a little naive as even I can't predict the upgradability of PCs that for the most part are very modular. At that time Atmos was already a format from 2012! So the result is that the XMC-1 was obsolete when it came out and then got discontinued while still being obsolete. Then when they talked about the XMC-2, I immediately realized that the promise of upgradability for the XMC-1 was going to be hard to pull off being that they were two different platforms now. At this point, Emotiva probably realized that their XMC-1 was simply not going to be able to stay current. Point being - don't promise a processor that's upgradable and stay current without knowing for sure. Even now Dan mentioned that the HDMI 2.1 upgrade was going to be no problem. I don't even know if there were working HDMI 2.1 chipsets when he said it! It sounds trivial now. But what happens if it doesn't pan out again? So here's my question: IS IT OKAY TO MAKE THESE STATEMENTS when selling a product? Side point: if Emotiva can offer ALL owners of the $3000 XMC-1 an XMC-2 for $650 plus 5 year warranty - Props to them for caring about us - How much business sense is that? - How much should the $3000 XMC-2 really cost to consumers if they can sell it for $650? Bonzo teaman I figured your thoughts would be interesting on this matter. |
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Post by Boomzilla on Apr 15, 2019 4:03:55 GMT -5
And there you go asking reasonable questions again! LOL You'll never be a politician.
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Post by davidl81 on Apr 15, 2019 8:17:55 GMT -5
My thoughts on the XMC-1 discontinuation of atmos DTS and upgrading to XMMC-2 for $650. Overall, first I am an Emo fanboy. This is probably the best decision Emotiva could have made. I can't see most owners being dissapointed. But.... Emotiva's wording on the XMC-1 in 2013 "the XMC-1 provides a flexible and expandable platform that will make it current and technologically relevant for years to come. We are also committed to continuously developing and expanding the capabilities and features of the XMC-1 over time with our ongoing Enhancement Program. Then in 2015 " Forget planned obsolescence. The XMC-1 is completely modular and upgradable to meet future standards. All main system components can be upgraded as needed, while our custom Linux software assures expandability for years to come. The Emotiva XMC-1 – The promise, fulfilled." The words are "COMPLETELY MODULAR AND UPGRADABLE TO MEET FUTURE STANDARDS" This what happens when one makes the promise of upgradability - it's not that easy. Just because it's modular doesn't mean it's guaranteed to stay current. Let's be real. Was the modular upgradability over the years promise fulfilled? No it was not. Was it impressive that the HDMI upgrades were sold? Yes. When the XMC-1 was announced, it said specifically that you wouldn't be throwing away the box and getting a new one. That was the draw. I immediately thought that seems a little naive as even I can't predict the upgradability of PCs that for the most part are very modular. At that time Atmos was already a format from 2012! So the result is that the XMC-1 was obsolete when it came out and then got discontinued while still being obsolete. Then when they talked about the XMC-2, I immediately realized that the promise of upgradability for the XMC-1 was going to be hard to pull off being that they were two different platforms now. At this point, Emotiva probably realized that their XMC-1 was simply not going to be able to stay current. Point being - don't promise a processor that's upgradable and stay current without knowing for sure. Even now Dan mentioned that the HDMI 2.1 upgrade was going to be no problem. I don't even know if there were working HDMI 2.1 chipsets at the moment! So here's my question: IS IT OKAY TO MAKE THESE STATEMENTS when selling a product? Side point: if Emotiva can offer ALL owners of the $3000 XMC-1 an XMC-2 for $650 plus 5 year warranty - Props to them for caring about us - How much business sense is that? - How much should the $3000 XMC-2 really cost to consumers if they can sell it for $650? Gar , Cost wise I think you also have to account that Emo may resell the XMC-1s for maybe $1000ish each. So let’s say that Emo makes $500 on each unit by the time you factor shipping and refurb cost. So at $1150 each I’m sure Emotiva is still losing on a per unit basis on the XMC-2, but it is still a cheaper option for them to take a hit on the XMC-2 then it would be to create and support a Atmos soloution for the XMC-1. |
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Post by HunTer on Apr 15, 2019 10:32:48 GMT -5
Upgrading to XMC-2 is not just $650 but also $1,050 “If you have an XMC-1 without the V3 board”
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Post by teaman on Apr 15, 2019 11:30:45 GMT -5
I think Emotiva shoots themselves in the foot every time they announce products prematurely. There were plenty of people in here waiting to see how the Emersa product line looked once it rolled out. It's coming...it's on the way....won't be long now...it's shelved, not really a possibility.
I don't understand why they keep doing this year in and year out. I have a lot of people that would be interested in Emotiva gear in my audio forums on Facebook but most of them are sick and tired of waiting for promised new products, or unfinished release of new products.
I commend Emotiva for at least offering this XMC-2 upgrade at a fair cost to the XMC-1 owners who feel they were shafted, however that is still a chunk of change to have to hand over for something that seemed like such an effortless upgrade from the company...at least as far as their promises.
My buddy Roy just used the AXPONA code to buy his first Emotiva product, a Gen 3 amp. I don't want to promise him anything because from owner experience these new modular Gen 3 amps are a mixed bag. Some love them and some sell them, or return them and stick with the first or second gen amps they already own. He has pro cinema Klipsch that are 106db efficient so if there is a noise floor, he will know it quickly. He already owns Parasound A23 and A21 amps so he knows how happy he is with them. I hope for Emotiva's sake he is satisfied with his amp purchase, because there are over ten thousand members in our audio group and they will all surely know if Roy feels the Emotiva amp is subpar.....plus he will no doubt return it within the thirty day window. I look forward to hearing his thoughts once his amp arrives.
Getting back to the Emotiva promises garbulky, I think Emotiva needs to concentrate more on what they are looking to accomplish as an audio manufacturer. So far, since 2012 when I showed up in this forum and began my journey into Emotiva products I have been very happy with my purchases. I have watched several roll outs of processors from Emotiva and none have gone smoothly. They had a great thing going with their amps and nobody was complaining about their mixed feelings concerning performance. I knew the Gen 3 amps were not for me when I read the first review and the reviewer and tester stated that the measurements on the amp were less than stellar. I still remember Dan coming into the forum and posting about the review, and I remember asking him about the skewed review numbers and their lack of trust in the product because of them. Dan answered that it could have been a one off and that he would contact them to set the record straight, maybe send them a second sample amp to review to ensure nothing was wrong with the way the amp was produced. That never happened either. I look in the manufacturer follow ups after every review, and I saw no rebuttal from Dan or anyone at Emotiva.
I get that these amps are lighter and probably easier to assemble since they are modular, I enjoyed the Sherbourn modular amps from a decade ago as well. My problem is it seems that Emotiva has it's hand in too many projects and cannot figure out how to master one before moving on to the next. I own ten Sherbourn processors and AVRs and none have had issues (knock on wood) but it seems with every roll out of new processors from Emotiva we have a hundred pages on a thread trying to help people with updates, tricks around the bugs, etc. To me that isn't what most customers want to go through to experience a new product. The flagship RMC-1 is no different and has followed the long list of bugs and complaints as was the case with the UMC-1 a decade ago.
Build products that operate as advertised out of the box. I can buy a Marantz or Denon processor with much the same features for less money that works great as soon as I initially plug it in. Another pet peeve, Dan....please stop bashing Denon, Marantz, or whomever else that you compete with "that your product is superior", then resort back to "they are a large company with tons of money they can spend to ensure a good product out of the box". You can't have it both ways.
In a nutshell, as I previously stated, I am happy Emotiva is going to offer an upgrade path short of full price to current XMC-1 owners who were promised the impossible. I am also happy that Emotiva realizes that with all of the bugs with the RMC-1, the thirty day trial period for owners should not start until the processor is actually performing as advertised. Emotiva really should stick with amps, CD players, and preamps. The processors seem to elude their capabilities with every roll out and it tarnishes what otherwise is a quality product line from a quality company.
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Post by garbulky on Apr 15, 2019 11:44:39 GMT -5
teaman I hear ya. In one way, I think what Emotiva is doing is admirable. They are making their own designs and creating some truly complex processors. It's sort of like a moonshot. But at the same time, they aren't trying to do it slowly. Too many fingers in too many pies. At the same time, they are also trying to go cost cutting which is sort of a one two punch. Right now the Emotiva T1 is discontinued, the T2 is on closeout. I see that they are trying to do a T2+ which is a good idea, I guess. But the rapid introduction of products and then discontinuation is a little worrying especially when it comes to warranty service. Is Rory still even the designer? I suggest taking a look at Schiit for upgradability. A first generation Schiit bifrost can be upgraded to the latest generation and that came out in 2012 or 2013! And all for the same price. Not it's more if you haven't got this previous upgrade etc etc. Their products may not be cutting edge, but they never discontinued their stuff and their upgrades are reasonably priced. If I bought Schiit, I know I could always have their latest DAC product even five years down the road at a fair price even if it is many generations out of date.
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Post by teaman on Apr 15, 2019 11:49:40 GMT -5
teaman I hear ya. In one way, I think what Emotiva is doing is admirable. They are making their own designs and creating some truly complex processors. But at the same time, they aren't trying to do it slowly. Too many fingers in too many pies. At the same time, they are also trying to go cost cutting which is sort of a one two punch. Right now the Emotiva T1 is discontinued, the T2 is on closeout. I see that they are trying to do a T2+ which is a good idea, I guess. But the rapid introduction of products and then discontinuation is a little worrying especially when it comes to warranty service. Is Rory still even the designer? Rory left....a year ago. My buddy is an authorized sales rep for a dozen or so prime audio companies. He wanted to work with Emotiva but their partner rules were more than he could bear so he backed away. If you look at the Emotiva partners, most are gone only two years after introduction. This was a dumb move to say the least, Emotiva is and always has been an internet direct company and the partner idea was poor from the start. In fact some of the partners that Emotiva had selling for them jumped ship and are now selling ToneWinner, which is the original Emotiva manufacturer behind the scenes. To me that is about the ultimate slap in the face. Most of my audio buddies feel as you do, they are unsure at this point what Emotiva actually represents. Is it amps, speakers, processors, gadgets?....not really sure. |
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