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Post by Boomzilla on Apr 15, 2019 14:04:42 GMT -5
Hi teaman - You're not sure what Emotiva's all about any more because Emotiva isn't sure what they're about either. They'll introduce a wonderful product (the BasX subwoofers are a prime example) and then kill off the line. IMHO, Emotiva has lost their way with amplifiers (the PA-1 being a shining exception). The generation three X-series, to my ears, isn't up to the previous generation two amplifiers' sound. If Class D is the future, then that can be a good thing. But. with the exception of the PA-1, Emotiva isn't there yet. The introduction / discontinuation of the T-series speakers is another example of questionable marketing. If the speaker was good, why discontinue it? If it wasn't, why was it introduced in the first place? The on-again, off-again Stealth DC-2 is another example of marketing confusion. It was close to being soup, but then not. Is it becoming a streamer? OK by me... But I'd like to know if it's going to be worth waiting for or if I should just give up and buy a Schiit Yggdrasil. I've thought from the beginning that Emotiva was wasting their time and effort pursuing the home theater processor market. I know that many disagree with me, obviously including the Emotiva marketing department, but I still contend that that market changes SO fast that it's a continuous fight just to avoid obsolescence. The giant Japanese Juggernauts have the resources to offer the "flavor of the day" while amortizing the cost over huge numbers of units. Emotiva lacks the critical mass to do that. IMHO, Emotiva should abandon the HT market entirely and concentrate on the areas where they're strongest. But it isn't my company, and I don't have any investment that relies on Emotiva's profitability, so it's academic to me. But I do have more Emotiva gear in my system than any other brand, so maybe I do wish them well... Boom |
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Post by teaman on Apr 15, 2019 14:16:00 GMT -5
Hi teaman - You're not sure what Emotiva's all about any more because Emotiva isn't sure what they're about either. They'll introduce a wonderful product (the BasX subwoofers are a prime example) and then kill off the line. IMHO, Emotiva has lost their way with amplifiers (the PA-1 being a shining exception). The generation three X-series, to my ears, isn't up to the previous generation two amplifiers' sound. If Class D is the future, then that can be a good thing. But. with the exception of the PA-1, Emotiva isn't there yet. The introduction / discontinuation of the T-series speakers is another example of questionable marketing. If the speaker was good, why discontinue it? If it wasn't, why was it introduced in the first place? The on-again, off-again Stealth DC-2 is another example of marketing confusion. It was close to being soup, but then not. Is it becoming a streamer? OK by me... But I'd like to know if it's going to be worth waiting for or if I should just give up and buy a Schiit Yggdrasil. I've thought from the beginning that Emotiva was wasting their time and effort pursuing the home theater processor market. I know that many disagree with me, obviously including the Emotiva marketing department, but I still contend that that market changes SO fast that it's a continuous fight just to avoid obsolescence. The giant Japanese Juggernauts have the resources to offer the "flavor of the day" while amortizing the cost over huge numbers of units. Emotiva lacks the critical mass to do that. IMHO, Emotiva should abandon the HT market entirely and concentrate on the areas where they're strongest. But it isn't my company, and I don't have any investment that relies on Emotiva's profitability, so it's academic to me. But I do have more Emotiva gear in my system than any other brand, so maybe I do wish them well... Boom Well said Boom, I agree 100% with you on all aspects of your post. I, like you wish only success for Emotiva...as I too have a house full of their gear. I just wish they could settle on a direction, and then take it. |
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Post by davidl81 on Apr 15, 2019 14:24:08 GMT -5
teaman I hear ya. In one way, I think what Emotiva is doing is admirable. They are making their own designs and creating some truly complex processors. But at the same time, they aren't trying to do it slowly. Too many fingers in too many pies. At the same time, they are also trying to go cost cutting which is sort of a one two punch. Right now the Emotiva T1 is discontinued, the T2 is on closeout. I see that they are trying to do a T2+ which is a good idea, I guess. But the rapid introduction of products and then discontinuation is a little worrying especially when it comes to warranty service. Is Rory still even the designer? Rory left....a year ago. My buddy is an authorized sales rep for a dozen or so prime audio companies. He wanted to work with Emotiva but their partner rules were more than he could bear so he backed away. If you look at the Emotiva partners, most are gone only two years after introduction. This was a dumb move to say the least, Emotiva is and always has been an internet direct company and the partner idea was poor from the start. In fact some of the partners that Emotiva had selling for them jumped ship and are now selling ToneWinner, which is the original Emotiva manufacturer behind the scenes. To me that is about the ultimate slap in the face. Most of my audio buddies feel as you do, they are unsure at this point what Emotiva actually represents. Is it amps, speakers, processors, gadgets?....not really sure. I think the partner plan really hurt Emotiva from a value perspective. The Emotiva website price had to be the same as the reseller price. The reseller is going to make +/- 30% margin on the Emotiva product, so unless Emotiva was not going to make much profit selling to resellers they were going to have to raise their prices in order to get margins up to cover the reseller model. Its the main reason the XPA amps have gone up so much in price. I do like the Emotiva amps, and the Gen 3's are pretty nice amps. I can only guess that there was a ceiling to being just an amp company and Emotiva wanted to be bigger than that. Nothing wrong at all with that goal, just products are so much more complicated now than say 10 years ago the R&D can be extremely taxing on a company the size of Emotiva. |
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Post by teaman on Apr 15, 2019 14:33:57 GMT -5
Rory left....a year ago. My buddy is an authorized sales rep for a dozen or so prime audio companies. He wanted to work with Emotiva but their partner rules were more than he could bear so he backed away. If you look at the Emotiva partners, most are gone only two years after introduction. This was a dumb move to say the least, Emotiva is and always has been an internet direct company and the partner idea was poor from the start. In fact some of the partners that Emotiva had selling for them jumped ship and are now selling ToneWinner, which is the original Emotiva manufacturer behind the scenes. To me that is about the ultimate slap in the face. Most of my audio buddies feel as you do, they are unsure at this point what Emotiva actually represents. Is it amps, speakers, processors, gadgets?....not really sure. I think the partner plan really hurt Emotiva from a value perspective. The Emotiva website price had to be the same as the reseller price. The reseller is going to make +/- 30% margin on the Emotiva product, so unless Emotiva was not going to make much profit selling to resellers they were going to have to raise their prices in order to get margins up to cover the reseller model. Its the main reason the XPA amps have gone up so much in price. I do like the Emotiva amps, and the Gen 3's are pretty nice amps. I can only guess that there was a ceiling to being just an amp company and Emotiva wanted to be bigger than that. Nothing wrong at all with that goal, just products are so much more complicated now than say 10 years ago the R&D can be extremely taxing on a company the size of Emotiva. I agree with you on this one David. I remember the day partners and retail shops were introduced into the forum and I went round and round with Dan as he assured me that bringing partners into the equation had nothing to do with the prices changing. To this day I beg to differ. There is no way you can introduce a middle man who is going to also make profit from the partnership and somehow magically the price will not go up. The price spike pretty much left behind the slogan of audiophile on a budget, which Emotiva was known for. Now the amp pricing is on par with every other known amplifier manufacturer, and even higher in some cases. Like others have stated, Emotiva has lost it's way. |
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Post by klinemj on Apr 15, 2019 15:20:51 GMT -5
The introduction / discontinuation of the T-series speakers is another example of questionable marketing. If the speaker was good, why discontinue it? If it wasn't, why was it introduced in the first place? I don't think this statement fits with the others. Based on what I have read, they have not discontinued the T-series speakers. They introduced the line with the T1 and T2. Then, they dropped the T1 to intro the T0. That made sense...didn't seem to be a big enough difference between T1 and T2 to me. Now, they are introducing upgrades to them...not discontinuing them. The T2+ is just an upgrade of the T2, based on Axpona reporting. That's like Maggie going 1.6 to 1.7 to 1.7i...just a series of upgrades, not discontinuing a line. The rest, I agree with - but I have not heard the Gen 3 amps, so I can't comment directly on that. Mark |
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Post by Boomzilla on Apr 15, 2019 18:27:29 GMT -5
Before the first processor came out, I commented that the HT market had the potential to bankrupt Emotiva. Despite the ups and downs, I still believe that. HT processors are the most complicated products that Emotiva has ever offered (by an order of magnitude or more). The engineering required just to fix bugs and stay up-to-date is tremendous, and the profit margin per unit (continually squeezed by the Japanese competition) is just that - marginal.
Now the complexity and engineering statements are prima-facia truths. But the profit margin statement is pure conjecture on my part. So take it with the huge grain of salt it deserves.
Boom
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Post by brutiarti on Apr 15, 2019 18:46:03 GMT -5
Before the first processor came out, I commented that the HT market had the potential to bankrupt Emotiva. Despite the ups and downs, I still believe that. HT processors are the most complicated products that Emotiva has ever offered (by an order of magnitude or more). The engineering required just to fix bugs and stay up-to-date is tremendous, and the profit margin per unit (continually squeezed by the Japanese competition) is just that - marginal. Now the complexity and engineering statements are prima-facia truths. But the profit margin statement is pure conjecture on my part. So take it with the huge grain of salt it deserves. Boom +1 A slow down on the economy can stop the cash flow and get ugly quickly. |
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Post by garbulky on Apr 26, 2019 23:46:31 GMT -5
How much fun was this high school show?
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Post by garbulky on May 11, 2019 9:06:17 GMT -5
Regarding warm up: Here is a graph of before cold and one hour warm up time with a Crown XLS amp powering something.  In this case, the warm up time decreased performance. Clearly, there is a measurable difference, though not necessarily an audible one. The idea of things being in nominal performance regardless of cold or warm in solid state components isn't always true. Here, nominal appears to be worse (  ) |
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Post by garbulky on May 29, 2019 23:56:04 GMT -5
After a long hiatus, I got some records from a New Orleans record shop. I don't normally listen to records, mainly because I don't really have many. I found the Last Concert by the Modern Jazz Quartet. Having listened to the digital versions - including using a multibit cd player - I knew I was going to like the result. It was priced reasonably used at $10 in great condition, I realized looking at the record that it was made about 45 years ago.
After losing and finding the power adapter to my phono preamp, I spun it up and tried comparing.
Keep in mind, my record player setup and catridge is nothing high end and neither is the phono preamp ($10).
Anyway, once again I was greeted by the seductive signature of vinyl. There was something right about the sound and timing that is hard to describe. Having said that the multibit dac was also no slouch in my early 90's denon PCM 61 chip. On my phono preamp the sound in the treble was slightly thinner sounding than on the dac. The overal tonal balance was a bit lean and different from the cd version. The CD version was clearly mastered a bit differently and had a slight bit more presence in the mid range. Both versions were quite enjoyable. I couldn't help but Marvel at this ancient vinyl still sounding so enjoyable.
I also got their Blues on bach and some Ellis Marsalis I still haven't tried.
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Post by novisnick on May 30, 2019 0:34:35 GMT -5
After a long hiatus, I got some records from a New Orleans record shop. I don't normally listen to records, mainly because I don't really have many. I found the Last Concert by the Modern Jazz Quartet. Having listened to the digital versions - including using a multibit cd player - I knew I was going to like the result. It was priced reasonably used at $10 in great condition, I realized looking at the record that it was made about 45 years ago. After losing and finding the power adapter to my phono preamp, I spun it up and tried comparing. Keep in mind, my record player setup and catridge is nothing high end and neither is the phono preamp ($10). Anyway, once again I was greeted by the seductive signature of vinyl. There was something right about the sound and timing that is hard to describe. Having said that the multibit dac was also no slouch in my early 90's denon PCM 61 chip. On my phono preamp the sound in the treble was slightly thinner sounding than on the dac. The overal tonal balance was a bit lean and different from the cd version. The CD version was clearly mastered a bit differently and had a slight bit more presence in the mid range. Both versions were quite enjoyable. I couldn't help but Marvel at this ancient vinyl still sounding so enjoyable. I also got their Blues on bach and some Ellis Marsalis I still haven't tried. Glad your enjoying some vinyl. Looking at your sig, didn’t you pick up a set of HD700’s? |
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Post by garbulky on May 31, 2019 0:11:21 GMT -5
After a long hiatus, I got some records from a New Orleans record shop. I don't normally listen to records, mainly because I don't really have many. I found the Last Concert by the Modern Jazz Quartet. Having listened to the digital versions - including using a multibit cd player - I knew I was going to like the result. It was priced reasonably used at $10 in great condition, I realized looking at the record that it was made about 45 years ago. After losing and finding the power adapter to my phono preamp, I spun it up and tried comparing. Keep in mind, my record player setup and catridge is nothing high end and neither is the phono preamp ($10). Anyway, once again I was greeted by the seductive signature of vinyl. There was something right about the sound and timing that is hard to describe. Having said that the multibit dac was also no slouch in my early 90's denon PCM 61 chip. On my phono preamp the sound in the treble was slightly thinner sounding than on the dac. The overal tonal balance was a bit lean and different from the cd version. The CD version was clearly mastered a bit differently and had a slight bit more presence in the mid range. Both versions were quite enjoyable. I couldn't help but Marvel at this ancient vinyl still sounding so enjoyable. I also got their Blues on bach and some Ellis Marsalis I still haven't tried. Glad your enjoying some vinyl. Looking at your sig, didn’t you pick up a set of HD700’s? Sure did Nick! Just didn't update it yet. Lovin it! |
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Post by garbulky on Jul 2, 2019 1:59:02 GMT -5
I went to a record store recently where I essentially got records for 40 cents a pop so I made out with a whole lot of classical and some jazz! After a thorough cleaning and drying, I spun them up. Some records sound very nicely recorded. It also becomes clear that there are a lot of old records that are simply not available on CD (though the above is). There is a niceness to playing records. First the motions with getting up, looking through your stack of albums. Is it not unfair to say that there is a pride in building up a collection of vinyl albums versus just streaming from 1000's of songs digitally? I love reading the liner notes, figuring out the year the different music was recorded in and knowing that this was the medium it was released in at the time. Even on my relatively cheap setup ($10 phono preamp people!) things are sounding quite nice. :format(jpeg):mode_rgb():quality(90)/discogs-images/R-3928101-1349778790-7108.jpeg.jpg) Here the piano and orchestra have weight, there's some reasonably quick macrodynamics. All what you would want. There appears to be a signature sound in vinyl that sounds pretty great to me. I'm sure it's some sort of coloration of sorts or a limitation of my turntable but it just sounds good to me! One thing of interest though is that my vinyl setup doesn't quite have the level of spatial detail present on the recording as CD recordings do. But it does have a sensation of rhythm and drive that is enjoyable. Fun times indeed. Sometimes we forget how good we have it! |
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Post by Boomzilla on Jul 2, 2019 5:57:03 GMT -5
I'm going to throw an uncomfortable thought at you... The turntable and cartridge that you currently have are probably not properly setup/aligned. Therefore every album you're playing is being damaged by your cartridge stylus.
Since the local vinyl shop has cheap setup service - get that done ASAP! And if they recommend that it's time for a new cartridge or stylus, get one. It's cheaper than damaging all your records.
Boom
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Post by garbulky on Jul 2, 2019 6:26:02 GMT -5
I'm going to throw an uncomfortable thought at you... The turntable and cartridge that you currently have are probably not properly setup/aligned. Therefore every album you're playing is being damaged by your cartridge stylus. Since the local vinyl shop has cheap setup service - get that done ASAP! And if they recommend that it's time for a new cartridge or stylus, get one. It's cheaper than damaging all your records. Boom I think you are right! I need to figure out how to fix this soon. From what I gather they don't have a guy there all the time, so I don't want to leave it alone for some time. |
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Post by garbulky on Jul 3, 2019 7:03:51 GMT -5
Now it's been my second or third night of extensive vinyl listening.
Thoughts so far (keep in mind my vinyl setup is entry level with a $10 phono pre. I haven't had extensive experience with better setups so the critiques should be taken in context. )
1. I like it! It may sound silly but the whole process brings about a pride of ownership and listening to an album on the whole.
2. The sides of vinyl albums are just too darn short! Before I know it, I have to get off my lazy behind and flip the side.
3. There's something nice about the sound of vinyl. It's very relaxing. The tone is pleasing to my ear as is the timbre of instruments. However the treble tone isn't quite correct compared to digital recording - not quite! Overall though the "warm" sound (i.e. rolled off treble) found on a good amount of records weighs in its favor. Compare this to bad digital recordings where the highs are boosted, the mids are thin and things sound quite a bit more "electronicky".
The sound actually audibly changes over the duration of the record. I read about it, but was surprised to be able to hear it. The best sound appears to be somewhere near the middle of the record.
Having said that, the distortions are audible. I can hear the rumble if the vinyl is turned up etc. In terms of actual setup digital playback systems are an order of magnitude easier. No washing records, worrying about dust, turntable adjustments etc.
4. Overall, I think this is a viable medium. It brings me a thrill to go out there record shopping for "bargain" finds. To play records that I have no idea what they are going to sound like. To know that I can't pause a record easily or skip ADD style all over to different albums is a nice feeling. Forces me to sit back and just listen.
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Post by geeqner on Jul 3, 2019 9:07:52 GMT -5
Glad to hear that you're enjoying a little "Vinyl Discovery", Gar - I am AMAZED by the quality of sound that the talented Recording Engineers were able to encode into a "scratch on a chunk of plastic", and the process that was used to press copies. The differences in technology between Vinyl and high-quality Digital is Light-Years apart - yet the sound quality, if done right, can still be comparable. One of the other things that I enjoys about the process of setting-up and spinning records is that you are probably more inclined to listen to an ENTIRE SIDE - where people tend to listen to a few seconds and skip stuff that they do not initially like on Digital media. I have discovered many lesser-known tunes that I really like from my favorite artists when I take the time to listen to entire albums or sides (some of them took some time / several listening sessions to "grow on me"). As for verifying your setup of the cartridge on the tonearm and adjustment of the tonearm height, etc. - there are some good U-Toob videos out there and some "cartridge alignment protractors" that you can print-out and set on your TT to aid you with some self-alignment. Having the Cart properly set-up and aligned (and at the manufacturer's recommended tracking force / anti-skate) is probably more important than the cartridge selection itself. Once you get your setup fine-tuned and if you decide to dive DEEPER - do yourself a favor and try some: - Pure ANALOG recordings that were mastered at Half-Speed
- 45 RPM Extended Singles (from the Late 1970-s / early 1980's) that were on LP-Sized records (I have one of "In your Eyes" by Peter Gabriel and it makes me grin every time I play it)
- Get some plastic sleeves for the records that you like - they cause significantly less damage to the grooves when you insert the album into them than paper / tagboard
(Don't know if they're still available - my faves were placed into Discwasher VRP's [Valuable Record Protectors] = special heavy-gauge sleeves with anti-static inserts and stiffeners)
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Post by dsonyay on Jul 7, 2019 16:34:30 GMT -5
The part about getting up too often to flip the album... That's what keeps me away from those 45 LPs.. they are even shorter per side.. plus ya gotta get up and flip 'em whole 'nother time.  |
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Post by garbulky on Jul 17, 2019 12:45:41 GMT -5
Glad to hear that you're enjoying a little "Vinyl Discovery", Gar - I am AMAZED by the quality of sound that the talented Recording Engineers were able to encode into a "scratch on a chunk of plastic", and the process that was used to press copies. The differences in technology between Vinyl and high-quality Digital is Light-Years apart - yet the sound quality, if done right, can still be comparable. One of the other things that I enjoys about the process of setting-up and spinning records is that you are probably more inclined to listen to an ENTIRE SIDE - where people tend to listen to a few seconds and skip stuff that they do not initially like on Digital media. I have discovered many lesser-known tunes that I really like from my favorite artists when I take the time to listen to entire albums or sides (some of them took some time / several listening sessions to "grow on me"). As for verifying your setup of the cartridge on the tonearm and adjustment of the tonearm height, etc. - there are some good U-Toob videos out there and some "cartridge alignment protractors" that you can print-out and set on your TT to aid you with some self-alignment. Having the Cart properly set-up and aligned (and at the manufacturer's recommended tracking force / anti-skate) is probably more important than the cartridge selection itself. Once you get your setup fine-tuned and if you decide to dive DEEPER - do yourself a favor and try some: - Pure ANALOG recordings that were mastered at Half-Speed
- 45 RPM Extended Singles (from the Late 1970-s / early 1980's) that were on LP-Sized records (I have one of "In your Eyes" by Peter Gabriel and it makes me grin every time I play it)
- Get some plastic sleeves for the records that you like - they cause significantly less damage to the grooves when you insert the album into them than paper / tagboard
(Don't know if they're still available - my faves were placed into Discwasher VRP's [Valuable Record Protectors] = special heavy-gauge sleeves with anti-static inserts and stiffeners)
Thanks geeqner! I went back to the record store and bought another bunch of records! Lol! I think I'll end up getting some plastic sleeves. Some of these bargain bin records don't even have sleeves! I also think my cartridge stylus is worn out. It's probably time for me to pony up for a new stylus but I have been very poor at figuring out how to install and adjust my cartridge and tone arm. |
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Post by garbulky on Jul 17, 2019 12:49:47 GMT -5
So how was Prime Day for you all? I got a bunch of goodies including the new echo dot. First impressions it's a lot louder, lot more bass than the previous generation. But I'm not taken with it as of yet. The previous generation didn't have bass but it was carefully optimized to give a nice neutral tone with what it could do. The result nice and inoffensive. This one you could see they were trying to compete with the cheap bluetooth speakers which makes the sound more muddy and the treble a bit more etchy, significantly more offensive to the ear. Can you tell I'm a stickler for tone? I think the previous gen echo dot got the most important part right which was clarity in voices while this current gen seems to focus more on bass. I even detected some rattling. But it did some surprising things. I turned it on and it immediately figured out my wifi network and connected to my phone. Not sure how that works! I'm also interested in seeing how the hub feature works. It would be nice if setup would be quicker for new smart devices because of it. |
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