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Post by brubacca on Sept 27, 2019 15:38:21 GMT -5
I'm not disagreeing with you two on any of it. There (quickly) comes a point when upgrading modules becomes cost prohibitive and the solution is to throw out the old box and put in a new unit. And Emotiva has absolutely to their credit given a truly great price on the replacement XMC-2 for the original XMC-1 owners. Except - the promise is modular upgrades for a long time. Not modular upgrades till it's not practical and then you have a new box which you have to re-setup etc. Note there's never been a guarantee that people are going to get the RMC-2 or whatever replacement for a great price. The realities may seem simple to people that know the deal except I've talked to several people that bought the XMC-1 because they were assured that they would get modules to be installed. The promise of upgradability for a long long time is a STRONG selling point. It is so because nobody has managed to deliver on such a thing. The closest a company has gotten is Schiit Audio with their bifrost - which only recently they had to declare end of life. Technically their Gugnir is still functional as a fully upgradable product but it too will soon be termed end of life. Its unrealistic to expect a piece of home theater gear to be upgradeable beyond a year or two after release. The standards change way too fast. |
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KeithL
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Post by KeithL on Sept 27, 2019 15:51:02 GMT -5
I agree with you - in principle.
However, you've already noted the catch. We could have offered an upgrade to allow the XMC-1 itself to do everything the XMC-2 does.....
We could have just said "We're upgrading the processor card, the HDMI card, and the front panel" and then written "XMC-1u" on the front instead of XMC-2.
However, since it would involve replacing most of the major circuitry, plus making the adaptations necessary to enable a retrofit, it would have cost more than the cost to trade it in for an XMC-2. Do you honestly think anybody would have wanted it?
At some point it becomes difficult to figure out where to put the line between..... - upgrading the old unit to add all the new features - saving the license plate from your old car, putting it on a new car, and calling it "a major upgrade".
I'm sort of reminded of one of those home remodeling shows I saw some years ago. Someone who had a tiny cabin, in a great beach-front location in Malibu Beach, wanted to build a new house. However, because their current one was located in a flood zone, they couldn't get a permit to build a new house there.
So, to follow the legal requirements, they demolished all but a single ten foot stretch of one original wall.... And then they built an entire new house around that original wall... By doing so, they could technically describe their project as "a remodel" instead of "building a new house", and they were able to get a permit for that. Needless to say this was a very expensive "cost no object" project.
(However, to be honest, when most people say "upgrade", what they really mean is "upgrade at a reasonable price"  .)
If you didn't notice, the first major upgrade on the Bifrost involved saving the cabinet, while replacing the single circuit board that contained all of the electronics. So, yes, they called it "an upgrade" instead of "a trade-in", and saved some on shipping costs.
However, replacing all of the boards in the original XMC-1, and getting it all to work properly afterwards, is a somewhat more complex proposition. Also, to be totally candid, by refurbishing your old XMC-1, and selling it to someone who will give it a nice new home, we get to offset some of the cost of offering such a major upgrade for such a low price.
I'm not disagreeing with you two on any of it. There (quickly) comes a point when upgrading modules becomes cost prohibitive and the solution is to throw out the old box and put in a new unit. And Emotiva has absolutely to their credit given a truly great price on the replacement XMC-2 for the original XMC-1 owners. Except - the promise is modular upgrades for a long time. Not modular upgrades till it's not practical and then you have a new box which you have to re-setup etc. Note there's never been a guarantee that people are going to get the RMC-2 or whatever replacement for a great price. The realities may seem simple to people that know the deal except I've talked to several people that bought the XMC-1 because they were assured that they would get modules to be installed. The promise of upgradability for a long long time is a STRONG selling point. It is so because nobody has managed to deliver on such a thing. The closest a company has gotten is Schiit Audio with their bifrost - which only recently they had to declare end of life. Technically their Gugnir is still functional as a fully upgradable product but it too will soon be termed end of life. |
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Post by Boomzilla on Sept 27, 2019 18:23:07 GMT -5
I must agree with both Mr. brubacca and Mr. KeithL - There is too much churn in the AV technology world to truly make ANYTHING "upgradable." And, more than any other type of audio component, any AVR or processor you buy will be virtually if not actually "already-obsolete by the time you get it home." Today's AV "latest and greatest" is forever doomed to be tomorrow's boat anchor. So unlike other audio components, which are complelely SOTA for years if not decades, AV stuff is destined to become landfill. And some companies seem to build with that destination in mind. Nevertheless, NEVER buy an AVR or Processor with the expectation that it'll be "fine for years." Because that just isn't going to happen. Period. If you COULD anticipate what the future would bring in the AVR world, and build products to those (future) standards, then your company would be unbeatable. But no AV company has yet come close. Boom |
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klinemj
Emo VIPs 
Official Emofest Scribe
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Post by klinemj on Sept 27, 2019 19:19:32 GMT -5
I'm not disagreeing with you two on any of it. There (quickly) comes a point when upgrading modules becomes cost prohibitive and the solution is to throw out the old box and put in a new unit. And Emotiva has absolutely to their credit given a truly great price on the replacement XMC-2 for the original XMC-1 owners. Except - the promise is modular upgrades for a long time. Not modular upgrades till it's not practical and then you have a new box which you have to re-setup etc. Note there's never been a guarantee that people are going to get the RMC-2 or whatever replacement for a great price. The realities may seem simple to people that know the deal except I've talked to several people that bought the XMC-1 because they were assured that they would get modules to be installed. The promise of upgradability for a long long time is a STRONG selling point. It is so because nobody has managed to deliver on such a thing. The closest a company has gotten is Schiit Audio with their bifrost - which only recently they had to declare end of life. Technically their Gugnir is still functional as a fully upgradable product but it too will soon be termed end of life. Define "long time". I have had my XMC-1 for 4.5 years, and it still works great. I could have upgraded it to 4K, but even after 4.5 years I was not ready to. My reasons for not being ready had nothing to do with Emotiva's ability to deliver. Now, they offer an even better deal to me to get 4K, Atmos, and a new warranty. I'm good with that. I'm really, really good with that. FYI, the old Denon I bought in 2006 and it was outdated basically not long after I bought it. And there was no upgrade program at all. I'll take a chance for an upgrade with a great program to trade in over ANY other option. Mark |
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Post by garbulky on Sept 28, 2019 15:07:52 GMT -5
I'm not disagreeing with you two on any of it. There (quickly) comes a point when upgrading modules becomes cost prohibitive and the solution is to throw out the old box and put in a new unit. And Emotiva has absolutely to their credit given a truly great price on the replacement XMC-2 for the original XMC-1 owners. Except - the promise is modular upgrades for a long time. Not modular upgrades till it's not practical and then you have a new box which you have to re-setup etc. Note there's never been a guarantee that people are going to get the RMC-2 or whatever replacement for a great price. The realities may seem simple to people that know the deal except I've talked to several people that bought the XMC-1 because they were assured that they would get modules to be installed. The promise of upgradability for a long long time is a STRONG selling point. It is so because nobody has managed to deliver on such a thing. The closest a company has gotten is Schiit Audio with their bifrost - which only recently they had to declare end of life. Technically their Gugnir is still functional as a fully upgradable product but it too will soon be termed end of life. Define "long time". I have had my XMC-1 for 4.5 years, and it still works great. I could have upgraded it to 4K, but even after 4.5 years I was not ready to. My reasons for not being ready had nothing to do with Emotiva's ability to deliver. Now, they offer an even better deal to me to get 4K, Atmos, and a new warranty. I'm good with that. I'm really, really good with that. FYI, the old Denon I bought in 2006 and it was outdated basically not long after I bought it. And there was no upgrade program at all. I'll take a chance for an upgrade with a great program to trade in over ANY other option. Mark "Long time" - the time it took for them to come out with each and every update. They were all significantly late compared to the products available at the time period. It's not a problem for those without 4k (I myself recently got on 4k). But for those with 4k, HDR, HD10, dolby vision, atmos sets, this was definitely a bottleneck on the wait for the updates. Things move relatively fast in the HT world and if Emotiva wants to say things are "cutting edge' it needs to be just that. This is one of the reasons thjat I haven't ugpraded my 2 channel DAC. The standards are changing so fast for surround sound. With a simple $40 HDMI 2.0b to Toslink SPDIF output adapter, my DC-1 is playing high quality two channel audio from HDMI 2 signals with HDR10 right off its optical connection. |
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Post by garbulky on Sept 28, 2019 16:40:18 GMT -5
I agree with you - in principle. However, you've already noted the catch. We could have offered an upgrade to allow the XMC-1 itself to do everything the XMC-2 does.....
We could have just said "We're upgrading the processor card, the HDMI card, and the front panel" and then written "XMC-1u" on the front instead of XMC-2.
However, since it would involve replacing most of the major circuitry, plus making the adaptations necessary to enable a retrofit, it would have cost more than the cost to trade it in for an XMC-2. Do you honestly think anybody would have wanted it? At some point it becomes difficult to figure out where to put the line between..... - upgrading the old unit to add all the new features - saving the license plate from your old car, putting it on a new car, and calling it "a major upgrade". I'm sort of reminded of one of those home remodeling shows I saw some years ago. Someone who had a tiny cabin, in a great beach-front location in Malibu Beach, wanted to build a new house. However, because their current one was located in a flood zone, they couldn't get a permit to build a new house there.
So, to follow the legal requirements, they demolished all but a single ten foot stretch of one original wall.... And then they built an entire new house around that original wall... By doing so, they could technically describe their project as "a remodel" instead of "building a new house", and they were able to get a permit for that. Needless to say this was a very expensive "cost no object" project.
(However, to be honest, when most people say "upgrade", what they really mean is "upgrade at a reasonable price" .) If you didn't notice, the first major upgrade on the Bifrost involved saving the cabinet, while replacing the single circuit board that contained all of the electronics. So, yes, they called it "an upgrade" instead of "a trade-in", and saved some on shipping costs.
However, replacing all of the boards in the original XMC-1, and getting it all to work properly afterwards, is a somewhat more complex proposition. Also, to be totally candid, by refurbishing your old XMC-1, and selling it to someone who will give it a nice new home, we get to offset some of the cost of offering such a major upgrade for such a low price.
I'm not disagreeing with you two on any of it. There (quickly) comes a point when upgrading modules becomes cost prohibitive and the solution is to throw out the old box and put in a new unit. And Emotiva has absolutely to their credit given a truly great price on the replacement XMC-2 for the original XMC-1 owners. Except - the promise is modular upgrades for a long time. Not modular upgrades till it's not practical and then you have a new box which you have to re-setup etc. Note there's never been a guarantee that people are going to get the RMC-2 or whatever replacement for a great price. The realities may seem simple to people that know the deal except I've talked to several people that bought the XMC-1 because they were assured that they would get modules to be installed. The promise of upgradability for a long long time is a STRONG selling point. It is so because nobody has managed to deliver on such a thing. The closest a company has gotten is Schiit Audio with their bifrost - which only recently they had to declare end of life. Technically their Gugnir is still functional as a fully upgradable product but it too will soon be termed end of life. Hi Keith - i want to know how your quotes are in format?
So the thing with the bifrost is that anybody that was buying ANY bifrost even the very oldest one knew that for a very reasonable price they could get it upgraded to the latest model. This makes the second hand market for such a unit strong.
How many people that would buy a used XMC-1 years from now is going to be given that kind of discount on the latest XMC-5 or whatever that comes out?
The same applies now - the perpetually upgraded bifrost is now no longer. However the new Bifrost 2 can cash in on the reputation of the old Bifrost's proven long term upgradability. People know Schiit did it once, so they can trust that their Bifrost 2 will once again be upgradable for a long time.
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Post by audiobill on Sept 29, 2019 9:06:47 GMT -5
Gar, please don’t overlook the PS Audio Directstream DAC, which beyond being SOTA in performance, is FPGA upgradeable.
They have released new upgrades 5-10 times since its introduction, with another release due out this week.
Like having a brand new dac every so often.
Nothing like its performance near the price.j
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Post by audiobill on Sept 29, 2019 9:09:20 GMT -5
Agree about “pre-pros” being a very poor medium- long term value.
I’d much rather put my dollars towards higher intrinsic quality high end components than those destined to be landfill in short order.
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Post by mauriceminor on Sept 29, 2019 11:05:17 GMT -5
Gar, please don’t overlook the PS Audio Directstream DAC, which beyond being SOTA in performance, is FPGA upgradeable. They have released new upgrades 5-10 times since its introduction, with another release due out this week. Like having a brand new dac every so often. Nothing like its performance near the price.j A September 22nd review and measurement of this DAC is posted |
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Post by audiobill on Sept 29, 2019 11:49:06 GMT -5
I hope you don’t subscribe to that guy over all other reviews!!!
Much about him, just search!
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Post by garbulky on Oct 1, 2019 0:15:33 GMT -5
Down in Lousiana
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Post by garbulky on Oct 1, 2019 11:08:17 GMT -5
Gar, please don’t overlook the PS Audio Directstream DAC, which beyond being SOTA in performance, is FPGA upgradeable. They have released new upgrades 5-10 times since its introduction, with another release due out this week. Like having a brand new dac every so often. Nothing like its performance near the price.j I do like their software upgrades. Unfortunatly the Directstream is too rich for my blood. The Schiit Ygdrassil is about as high as I plan to go. I'm just awaiting the version that will have a remote and am also waiting for a transparent preamp. So far every standalone preamp has dissapointed me clarity wise. |
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Post by Percussionista on Oct 1, 2019 14:39:12 GMT -5
.... I do like their software upgrades. Unfortunatly the Directstream is too rich for my blood. The Schiit Ygdrassil is about as high as I plan to go. I'm just awaiting the version that will have a remote and am also waiting for a transparent preamp. So far every standalone preamp has dissapointed me clarity wise. I'm pretty sure you won't be interested but I still have a classic old FET-9 analog preamp by Threshold that I didn't have time to find a good home for before we moved. I seem to remember I tested the inputs/outputs but would again now (though I don't really have an analog setup at this point, so I would have to scratch my head a little ;-)). It's old enough that caps should probably be checked/replaced anyway. In the early-mid years of surround sound I still used it in a theater bypass situation, but then started consolidating when I got my Emotiva MPS-2 amp to replace several other amps, and wanted fewer boxes ;-) The FET-9 has no remote control and no on/off switch - you plug it in and it's on all the time. It's also back when folks might have more than one recording device, you can select either to play or record, or record from one to the other. |
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Post by garbulky on Oct 19, 2019 14:48:37 GMT -5
Just finished watching 5th wave on 4k ultra hd blu ray. Verdict: What a rotten transfer. This looks exactly like the blu ray transfer - which was also quite mediocre.
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Post by garbulky on Nov 13, 2019 0:04:47 GMT -5
Just picked up some more records at the bargain bin at a new record store. Nice owner. We had a great conversation. He has a really nice turntable JA Mitchell Gyrodec and a KEF R500 setup.  $2 per record from the bargain bin! Louis Armstrong, Nat King Cole, Jennifer Warnes - come on now! B'zilla tells me I need a better turntable! I can't say he's wrong! |
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Post by novisnick on Nov 13, 2019 0:23:44 GMT -5
Just picked up some more records at the bargain bin at a new record store. Nice owner. We had a great conversation. He has a really nice turntable JA Mitchell Gyrodec and a KEF R500 setup. $2 per record from the bargain bin! Louis Armstrong, Nat King Cole, Jennifer Warnes - come on now! B'zilla tells me I need a better turntable! I can't say he's wrong! My friend, it’s truly time to seriously start planning on your TT upgrade! 👍🎶🎶🎶🎶🎶🎶 Great deals on some wonderful music! |
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Post by garbulky on Nov 13, 2019 1:07:55 GMT -5
Just picked up some more records at the bargain bin at a new record store. Nice owner. We had a great conversation. He has a really nice turntable JA Mitchell Gyrodec and a KEF R500 setup. $2 per record from the bargain bin! Louis Armstrong, Nat King Cole, Jennifer Warnes - come on now! B'zilla tells me I need a better turntable! I can't say he's wrong! My friend, it’s truly time to seriously start planning on your TT upgrade! 👍🎶🎶🎶🎶🎶🎶 Great deals on some wonderful music! I love the look of most of the TT's these days but I do have a preference for metallic units or wooden units. One thing I do know is that I don't like the DJ units. So something like this is not for me  Oh well what am I talking about. An upgrade is a long ways out! Still I find my head turning to those VPI, Garrard, Rega and Schiit turntables! |
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Post by Boomzilla on Nov 13, 2019 3:50:19 GMT -5
You might even consider one of these:  |
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Post by brubacca on Nov 13, 2019 5:24:36 GMT -5
I'm on mobile so I can't see what you have now, but check out Vinyl Nirvana.
He restores old AR decks to new condition. Supposedly they sound great.
Schiits table is close to rerelease. They are going to offer a cartridge option now.
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Post by garbulky on Nov 14, 2019 0:35:24 GMT -5
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.) 
