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Post by Porscheguy on Jul 6, 2013 13:15:47 GMT -5
Sorry if I've come off a little cranky on my last post, but for some reason we are always put in the position have to defend ourselves when when offer some of the greatest values on high end audio in the business. And we don't try to sell you a bunch of B.S. I was making a point about an interconnect selling for $1690.00, but that's at the core of it. Brands get away this this because they are part of a distribution system that sees many people profit from this silliness. $50k for a pair of speakers, $5k for a CD player, $20k for amplifier... $2k for an interconnect, it's madness. But their are a lot of people making money on this madness! I'm not against retail distribution at all, but really folks, some of these prices and the claims made are insane and are a bunch of snake oil. THAT gets me mad, because it hurts the credibility of the high end end audio business in general. When I hear and see some of this stuff, I feel like I'm listening to a carny in a side show at the circus. Now as a disclaimer: there are those few brands that do build true artisan quality instruments that can reasonably justify their costs based on their production runs and the amount of material and work involved, but these brands are the exception... I understand that there are people out there for whom price means nothing, and they are not happy unless they can tell their friends they spent $10k, or $100k on something. OK, fine. We can't ever get them as clients. But for most audiophiles this is not the case. They are chasing a musical and emotional experience, and if necessary, they will spend more than they want to, or in many cases, more then they can really afford to in pursuit of sonic nirvana. If you've been to any of the hi-fi shows, 99% of the guys out there looking at $100-$200k systems will never be able to achieve their dreams. At Emotiva and her sister brands, we are trying to bring an elevated listening experience within the reach of mere mortals. I never get used to the jabs and insults thrown at us by so many people on the outside. But I have come to understand that the vast majority of them fall into one of two camps: 1. They are a part of the existing distribution infrastructure and they profit from the status quo. They MUST attack us. WE are the enemy. We can never change their minds. 2. They already drank the Kool Aid. They have spent big bucks on other products and now they feel like they have been duped, but still, they are angry at US!. We must be derided and marginalized so that they can justify the money they have already spent. At the same time, the seeds of doubt had been planted.... they'll come around, because their logical mind will eventually overcome their anger. They'll take the leap and once they do, they will understand that we are for real. These guys will be our biggest supporters in the end. Because they will know from first hand experience that we are offering true high end gear that compares with any of the big boys. One last comment about the Bob Carver gear. One of the big reasons we have been able to reduce the cost so dramatically is by using our purchasing leverage to dramatically reduce the cost of the materials used in the amplifiers. And no, we are not reducing the quality of the materials! We are just buying a whole lot more at once to gain purchasing leverage. Anyway, I think I'm done for the moment. Have a great weekend and thanks to all of you for your enthusiasm and comments. Cheers, Big Dan, the Emotiva Group Man Wow Dan, It's about damn time you finally stopped being so polite and told it like it is! You more than anyone knows the inner workings of the AV business better than virtually anyone and it's nice to see hear make your feelings (finally) known. I have never in my life been able to figure out how for instance a mono bloc power amp could cost 25k to as much as 50k. I simply cannot understand what you could possibly put in an amp for components to justify that kind of money. I was at Axpona in Atlanta a few years back and there was a pair speakers there with a 75k asking price. It just happened that I was talking with the company's president, so I asked him what could possibly be in pair of speakers that could make them cost that much. He smiled and winked and said "some people will pay anything for their sonic nirvana".... |
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Post by monkumonku on Jul 6, 2013 13:21:57 GMT -5
Sorry if I've come off a little cranky on my last post, but for some reason we are always put in the position have to defend ourselves when when offer some of the greatest values on high end audio in the business. And we don't try to sell you a bunch of B.S. I was making a point about an interconnect selling for $1690.00, but that's at the core of it. Brands get away this this because they are part of a distribution system that sees many people profit from this silliness. $50k for a pair of speakers, $5k for a CD player, $20k for amplifier... $2k for an interconnect, it's madness. But their are a lot of people making money on this madness! I'm not against retail distribution at all, but really folks, some of these prices and the claims made are insane and are a bunch of snake oil. THAT gets me mad, because it hurts the credibility of the high end end audio business in general. When I hear and see some of this stuff, I feel like I'm listening to a carny in a side show at the circus. Now as a disclaimer: there are those few brands that do build true artisan quality instruments that can reasonably justify their costs based on their production runs and the amount of material and work involved, but these brands are the exception... I understand that there are people out there for whom price means nothing, and they are not happy unless they can tell their friends they spent $10k, or $100k on something. OK, fine. We can't ever get them as clients. But for most audiophiles this is not the case. They are chasing a musical and emotional experience, and if necessary, they will spend more than they want to, or in many cases, more then they can really afford to in pursuit of sonic nirvana. If you've been to any of the hi-fi shows, 99% of the guys out there looking at $100-$200k systems will never be able to achieve their dreams. At Emotiva and her sister brands, we are trying to bring an elevated listening experience within the reach of mere mortals. I never get used to the jabs and insults thrown at us by so many people on the outside. But I have come to understand that the vast majority of them fall into one of two camps: 1. They are a part of the existing distribution infrastructure and they profit from the status quo. They MUST attack us. WE are the enemy. We can never change their minds. 2. They already drank the Kool Aid. They have spent big bucks on other products and now they feel like they have been duped, but still, they are angry at US!. We must be derided and marginalized so that they can justify the money they have already spent. At the same time, the seeds of doubt had been planted.... they'll come around, because their logical mind will eventually overcome their anger. They'll take the leap and once they do, they will understand that we are for real. These guys will be our biggest supporters in the end. Because they will know from first hand experience that we are offering true high end gear that compares with any of the big boys. One last comment about the Bob Carver gear. One of the big reasons we have been able to reduce the cost so dramatically is by using our purchasing leverage to dramatically reduce the cost of the materials used in the amplifiers. And no, we are not reducing the quality of the materials! We are just buying a whole lot more at once to gain purchasing leverage. Anyway, I think I'm done for the moment. Have a great weekend and thanks to all of you for your enthusiasm and comments. Cheers, Big Dan, the Emotiva Group Man Wow Dan, It's about damn time you finally stopped being so polite and told it like it is! You more than anyone knows the inner workings of the AV business better than virtually anyone and it's nice to see hear make your feelings (finally) known. I have never in my life been able to figure out how for instance a mono bloc power amp could cost 25k to as much as 50k. I simply cannot understand what you could possibly put in an amp for components to justify that kind of money. I was at Axpona in Atlanta a few years back and there was a pair speakers there with a 75k asking price. It just happened that I was talking with the company's president, so I asked him what could possibly be in pair of speakers that could make them cost that much. He smiled and winked and said "some people will pay anything for their sonic nirvana".... What you put into them is chutzpah.  Like I said in my reply to someone's comment about the chip in the XDA-2 and DC-1 being the same, it is all about the implementation and engineering.. those who make these super expensive products have designed their product based on their knowledge of human nature and psychology. |
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Post by mgbpuff on Jul 6, 2013 13:43:30 GMT -5
I wasn't going to comment today because I wanted Big Dan's reply to stay in the latest post column a while to give everyone a chance to spot it and read it. But now I wish to say that I fully admire Dan Laufman and his business and company objective statements. I have been an audiophile for a long time and I have spent way too much in the last 5 years of my retirement savings on audio toys. Since I have discovered Emotiva, I cannot justify silly high prices anymore in exchange for maybe, and I stress maybe, a 2 or 3% performance improvement. I have also long admired Bob Carver and have bought his products many times and lusted for many more that I could not quite afford at the time. I have 14 Emotiva products and 9 Carver products in my house right now. I wanted to buy Sunfire amps, Bob's folded ribbon speaker products, his Amazing speakers, and Silver 7 tube amps in the past, but they were priced beyond my reach at the time. So I am a Emotiva/Carver fanboy and I am looking forward to seeing more and more amazing hi-end bargains.
Thank you Dan Laufman and Bob Carver for improving the quality of my life!
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Post by 1960broookwood on Jul 6, 2013 16:53:17 GMT -5
Since I was one of a few that sparked the debate let me follow up with my thoughts and politely step out. Emotiva has always sold its products on value be it watts\dollar or pounds\dollar--and this is a radical departure. On one page we have a 1200 watt 100 pound EMOTIVA monster that we fondly call "a cost-no-object assault on setting the standard for audiophile components" for $1449 Next we offer a 40 watt 18 pound CARVER amp for $1690 that the reviewer quoted says comes with Chinese tubes that need to be replaced. I am a value shopper and getting the most for the $ is important--the newest tube offerings were not what I expected based on past history and do not meet my needs--one mans opinion. Every brand and product has an intended market and I do not happen to fall in the target audience. Offer a product competitive with the "value priced" option and I'm all in. Until that happens I am good with my 45+ year old Dynaco stuff--which seems to have held up just fine. Best of luck with the new venture! Dave |
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DYohn
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Post by DYohn on Jul 6, 2013 17:13:23 GMT -5
Why would you consider buying something that you say does not meet your needs? It's different strokes for different folks! Viva le difference.
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Post by Porscheguy on Jul 6, 2013 17:21:50 GMT -5
Um..er.. it's viva la difference...  And I'm Italian |
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Post by paintedklown on Jul 6, 2013 17:28:44 GMT -5
I suppose my take on the Bob Carver/Emotiva joint business venture was different than what may be happening.
I was actually surprised to see the price slashes on Carver branded gear, as I was thinking that Carver branded components would continue to be their own separate entity.
I was under the impression that Carver was going to help design Emotiva branded gear, and then Emotiva would produce these Carver designed/Emo built products badged as Emotiva products with their usual production & pricing structure in place.
Can anyone at Emotiva confirm/deny that this is, or isn't, true?
@ Big Dan: I too am glad to see you speak out in such a candid and honest fashion. You have always taken the high road with politeness, and it's understandable why, but this is YOUR forum, and this should be the place that you are allowed to say what's on your mind.
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DYohn
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Post by DYohn on Jul 6, 2013 17:46:34 GMT -5
Um..er.. it's viva la difference... And I'm Italian My difference is male. |
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DYohn
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Post by DYohn on Jul 6, 2013 17:50:59 GMT -5
I was under the impression that Carver was going to help design Emotiva branded gear, and then Emotiva would produce these Carver designed/Emo built products badged as Emotiva products with their usual production & pricing structure in place. From Dan Laufman: “Beginning basically immediately, we will be taking over operations and management and day-to-day control of Bob Carver, LLC, and the vacuum tube amplifier.” ... Emotiva will take over the manufacturing of Carver’s tube amplifiers and Carver will be “deeply involved” in R&D at Emotiva, according to Laufman. His innovations will “filter into” Emotiva’s core line of amps, preamps and speakers, and also into products developed for Emotiva Pro and the company’s Sherbourn unit, acquired in 2010. In addition to Emotiva’s existing product line, with Carver’s help, “We’re going to make a very, very serious effort in the high-performance subwoofer category,” Laufman says in the podcast. He adds that Carver “sees the potential of a brand like ours. … The world is changing ….” SOURCE |
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Post by paintedklown on Jul 6, 2013 18:05:06 GMT -5
I was under the impression that Carver was going to help design Emotiva branded gear, and then Emotiva would produce these Carver designed/Emo built products badged as Emotiva products with their usual production & pricing structure in place. From Dan Laufman: “Beginning basically immediately, we will be taking over operations and management and day-to-day control of Bob Carver, LLC, and the vacuum tube amplifier.” ... Emotiva will take over the manufacturing of Carver’s tube amplifiers and Carver will be “deeply involved” in R&D at Emotiva, according to Laufman. His innovations will “filter into” Emotiva’s core line of amps, preamps and speakers, and also into products developed for Emotiva Pro and the company’s Sherbourn unit, acquired in 2010. In addition to Emotiva’s existing product line, with Carver’s help, “We’re going to make a very, very serious effort in the high-performance subwoofer category,” Laufman says in the podcast. He adds that Carver “sees the potential of a brand like ours. … The world is changing ….” SOURCEThanks David, I was thinking there was going to be Emo branded gear that was designed by Bob, but I was beginning to question my sanity for bit there.  Ultimately, I see this this joining forces as a great thing. Will I sell my X series gear to go to a tube setup? Well, that is still up in the air. For me it comes down to affordability in all honesty. I WANT to try tube gear (and experience the joys of tube rolling), but at the same time, I don't feel like I can complain too loudly with the Emo setup that I currently have. |
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Post by mgbpuff on Jul 6, 2013 18:10:39 GMT -5
Since I was one of a few that sparked the debate let me follow up with my thoughts and politely step out. Emotiva has always sold its products on value be it watts\dollar or pounds\dollar--and this is a radical departure. On one page we have a 1200 watt 100 pound EMOTIVA monster that we fondly call "a cost-no-object assault on setting the standard for audiophile components" for $1449 Next we offer a 40 watt 18 pound CARVER amp for $1690 that the reviewer quoted says comes with Chinese tubes that need to be replaced. I am a value shopper and getting the most for the $ is important--the newest tube offerings were not what I expected based on past history and do not meet my needs--one mans opinion. Every brand and product has an intended market and I do not happen to fall in the target audience. Offer a product competitive with the "value priced" option and I'm all in. Until that happens I am good with my 45+ year old Dynaco stuff--which seems to have held up just fine. Best of luck with the new venture! Dave In 1969 a factory built Dynaco ST70 (a 35 watt/ch stereo tube amp)was selling for $130.00. The 2013 price accounting for inflation is $5460.00. The Carver Black Magic 20 (a 20 watt/ch stereo tube amp) is only $1690. The kind of value you're looking for today is used equipment from potter house bins. Are ye Rip Van Winkle? |
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Post by 1960broookwood on Jul 6, 2013 18:10:48 GMT -5
Why would you consider buying something that you say does not meet your needs? It's different strokes for different folks! Viva le difference. Because we were offered a teaser about an Emo tube product--at this pricing structure and branding we have become the competition--and Dan has made a good business in the past of eating these companies lunches? |
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Post by paintedklown on Jul 6, 2013 18:15:23 GMT -5
Why would you consider buying something that you say does not meet your needs? It's different strokes for different folks! Viva le difference. Because we were offered a teaser about an Emo tube product--at this pricing structure and branding we have become the enemy--and Dan has made a good business in the past of eating these companies lunches? I think that Emotiva branded tube gear (along with Emo pricing) is on the way. What we are seeing now, is simply the re-structuring of Carvers side of the operation, as it could be easily/quickly implemented without disruption to the current product line. I may be wrong... |
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Post by Chuck Elliot on Jul 6, 2013 19:04:07 GMT -5
I wish Emotiva all the luck in the world with the Carver tube line. The price points are just above my level.
After buying a pair of XPA-1Ls, the cost of a pair of Cherry 180s at 6x the cost just can't be justified for my needs.
So I'll be smiling and listening to the XPA-1Ls and dreaming of a lottery win.......
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klinemj
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Post by klinemj on Jul 7, 2013 6:57:35 GMT -5
Thanks Dan! It's great to have your direct perspective. It's getting pretty rare these days to hear so candidly and directly from a man in your position. That you do share like this is yet another of many charms of Emotiva.
Mark
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benzo
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Post by benzo on Jul 8, 2013 11:14:07 GMT -5
I just laid out 4,000 dollars for a Prism Lyra, a British made audiophile/music production Swiss army knife. While its sound quality is astonishing, I have no doubt that Emotiva, with its economies of scale, could produce the same product at half the cost. My twenty something year old Audio Research Classic 60's second hand price is in the same ballpark as the Carver. I don't listen to it right now though, as the XPR2 does so many of the things I previously could only get from tube gear.
I have absolutely no doubt that the Carver is priced well, perhaps even too low for the audio snobs, of which group I was a charter member. Until I tried Emotiva.
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Post by David M on Jul 13, 2013 22:35:52 GMT -5
Hi Dan...first time poster here and like many users have been Bob Carver fans having used(and still do) his amps and speakers. Glad to see the price reduction on the Tube Amps ...great thing indeed.
Now, I ask of you to have the VTA305M or VTA180M be tested by you (via the usual AP audio test equipment you use) and submitted to review magazines that perform amplifier tests. Carver has made some claims on the distortion and power specs of these tube amps that I'd like objectively tested. I hope they are all true but the engineer in me wants to see some measurement data.
Would this be possible and if so when would the results be available for review? :)
Thanks,
David
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Post by Dan Laufman on Jul 14, 2013 14:18:46 GMT -5
Hi David, Lonnie and I pulled in the 305 and ran it in the lab early on. We were astounded by its performance. One of the technicians said, "be careful you can't load a tube amp on the test bench for very long without damage", I said, "that's not what Bob told me, watch this". Now listen, this is s TUBE amp with very low feedback and it the "classic" mode it maintains a THD+N of about 0.5% across the spectrum at rated output, which is EASILY exceeds! It's bulletproof. It doesn't really care what you do to it. Now if you get really nuts with low impedance loads at high power levels for a long time it'll pop a fuse, but you can't really hurt it. Thow a new fuse back in a start playing! In the "modern" feedback more TH+N is around 0.25% across the band. This is amazing performance for a tube amplifier. And its noise floor is around -115dB. Really impressive. Lonnie commented during the testing that it performed like a modern SS amp, in many respects, and this is a real accomplishment. There is a reason they sound so good, they are incredibly well designed; thank you Bob! IMO, they are worth every penny. When you see one made you'll know why they have to cost what they do. They are hand made here in the USA with premium parts, sourced from the USA whenever possible, and they take a long, long, time to build. Not for everyone, and we understand this, but they are worth it if you love tube gear. Cheers, Big Dan |
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Post by David M on Jul 16, 2013 9:57:51 GMT -5
Awesome Dan:
Thanks for the preview of the VTA305M performance. Now, are you going to officially release your internal AP tests like you do for your other SS amplifiers? Please do, for I enjoy reading your AP reports very much as they seem to be very thorough.
Also, do you plan to submit the 305M for review to say Stereophile or Audioholics for they are one of the few magazines that bench test amplifier. No magazine so far has bench tested these beautiful amps.
Your price reduction of the VTA's is a Godsend indeed. It brought the chances of me buying one from "I wish I could afford...." to "I definitely will buy..."
Thanks for bring Bobs products down in price to the masses ...
Regards,
David
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DYohn
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Post by DYohn on Jul 16, 2013 10:10:57 GMT -5
In the "modern" feedback more TH+N is around 0.25% across the band. This is amazing performance for a tube amplifier. And its noise floor is around -115dB. Really impressive. Wow. That's damn impressive. |
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Like I said in my reply to someone's comment about the chip in the XDA-2 and DC-1 being the same, it is all about the implementation and engineering.. those who make these super expensive products have designed their product based on their knowledge of human nature and psychology. 
