Black magic 20, price drop, whats next?

[Ref]

Well it looks like Emotiva's fair pricing model has started to come into affect over at Bob Carver. The Black Magic 20 is now 1690.00 from 2490.00, with
their new PureDirect pricing model. Is the new price a fair price? I wonder what's next for the Black Beauty 305.

Very excited.

[Chuck Elliot]

Still overpriced given that you can get this for < $800 built!

ST35 Clone

[1960broookwood]

Compared to the JoLida JD502P with 3 times the power at $500 less it may be a hard sell. The warranty is shorter but they are now built in the states and have decent service--which has been a problem with Carver equipment in the past.

May be Apples and Oranges--but Emo equipment has always had value as a selling point.

[Andrew Robinson]

Jun 13, 2013 15:55:05 GMT -5 Chuck Elliot said:

Still overpriced given that you can get this for < $800 built!

ST35 Clone

To be fair, one is $800 and looks like it was made in a garage -and not a clean one. Also, I hesitate to call anything that uses the term "clone" the same thing. Inspired by? Sure. Exactly the same? Ehh. I think $1,600 and change is a fair price, far fairer than $2,400. Just my 2-cents. 

[Andrew Robinson]

Jun 13, 2013 16:00:00 GMT -5 1960broookwood said:

Compared to the JoLida JD502P with 3 times the power at $500 less it may be a hard sell. The warranty is shorter but they are now built in the states and have decent service--which has been a problem with Carver equipment in the past.

May be Apples and Oranges--but Emo equipment has always had value as a selling point.

Jolida makes some pretty kick-ass gear, no question. But I've seen where the Carver amps are now built and I've met the guys who build them. I trust should anything need repair etc. (not that it would) you're going to be better served by the dudes in TN. Just saying. Something to be said for "local" (inside the US) service should it be needed. This is true for Emotiva products too, which are manufactured in China, and yet serviced locally in TN. In both cases at least you know who you're going to be dealing with. 

[Ref]

I agree, It's is a 32% drop...but just not enough, considering what others are offering with comparable or better specs on the market. I Was hoping for a 50% drop, from
what was overheard at the Newport Beach audio show.

[1960broookwood]

Jun 13, 2013 16:04:55 GMT -5 Andrew Robinson said:

Jun 13, 2013 16:00:00 GMT -5 1960broookwood said:

Compared to the JoLida JD502P with 3 times the power at $500 less it may be a hard sell. The warranty is shorter but they are now built in the states and have decent service--which has been a problem with Carver equipment in the past.

May be Apples and Oranges--but Emo equipment has always had value as a selling point.

Jolida makes some pretty kick-ass gear, no question. But I've seen where the Carver amps are now built and I've met the guys who build them. I trust should anything need repair etc. (not that it would) you're going to be better served by the dudes in TN. Just saying. Something to be said for "local" (inside the US) service should it be needed. This is true for Emotiva products too, which are manufactured in China, and yet serviced locally in TN. In both cases at least you know who you're going to be dealing with. 

JoLida is built and serviced by the "dudes" in Maryland.

If this is the new pricing structure you may want to rethink things IMHO.

[brubacca]

Bob's product was positioned as a premium product. In my area it was at a ultra premium retailer. Naim was their inexpensive brand. I wouldn't expect Emotiva to drop them immediately to rock bottom pricing.

[garbulky]

It's a bob carver <ahem> BOB CARVER tube amp for $700 off! Still way more than I can spend but the bob carver tube amps were never intended for budget buyers! I say great job emotiva! Imagine what the pricier stuff is going to go for! For some strange reason I assumed the carver stuff would appear on the emo site....

[mgbpuff]

A little Carver magic here - "A special current feedback circuit allows the amplifier to “listen to the room” via feedback from the speakers acting as microphones (using the law of reciprocity). The room-speaker-amplifier interaction provides a sense of believable ambience and acoustic space that is thoroughly realistic and quite enjoyable. Additionally, the transformer output impedance allows the signal to follow the impedance curve of the speaker system, allowing more voltage to be delivered to the loudspeaker at very low frequencies – providing an exceptional and satisfying low end response.

I've heard this baby and it sounds great. Far from a clone of an old Dynaco design.

[Andrew Robinson]

Jun 13, 2013 16:15:13 GMT -5 1960broookwood said:

Jun 13, 2013 16:04:55 GMT -5 Andrew Robinson said:

Jolida makes some pretty kick-ass gear, no question. But I've seen where the Carver amps are now built and I've met the guys who build them. I trust should anything need repair etc. (not that it would) you're going to be better served by the dudes in TN. Just saying. Something to be said for "local" (inside the US) service should it be needed. This is true for Emotiva products too, which are manufactured in China, and yet serviced locally in TN. In both cases at least you know who you're going to be dealing with. 

JoLida is built and serviced by the "dudes" in Maryland.

If this is the new pricing structure you may want to rethink things IMHO.

I stand corrected. My apologies. Though I have no say (or sway) over pricing. I still think the price of the Carver stuff is fair compared to what it used to be and when put up against other competitors. You may feel differently, which is cool. 

[DYohn]

$1690 for the The Black Magic 20 is a great deal. Comparing with an old Dynaco "clone" or Jolida? That would be a mistake.

[mgbpuff]

Most of the Jolida components are made in China. The Maryland facility is an assembly operation only. They are also designed in China. Assembly in the U.S. seems to improve quality but you must buy from U.S. approved distributers to get the U.S. version. There's still all Chinese versions being sold at lower prices on the internet and there is a lot of bad blood between the Chinese Jolida and the U.S.Jolida. So buy Jolida and take your chances.

[1960broookwood]

Jun 13, 2013 16:32:28 GMT -5 mgbpuff said:

A little Carver magic here - "A special current feedback circuit allows the amplifier to “listen to the room” via feedback from the speakers acting as microphones (using the law of reciprocity). The room-speaker-amplifier interaction provides a sense of believable ambience and acoustic space that is thoroughly realistic and quite enjoyable. Additionally, the transformer output impedance allows the signal to follow the impedance curve of the speaker system, allowing more voltage to be delivered to the loudspeaker at very low frequencies – providing an exceptional and satisfying low end response.

I've heard this baby and it sounds great. Far from a clone of an old Dynaco design.

Are you familiar with the term "sonic holography"--introduced in the early 80's?

www.google.com/patents/US4218585

Bob and Carroll Shelby are cut from the same mold

[mgbpuff]

O.K. I'm not a patent attorney. But it looks like you are showing me a patent of Bob Carver's that was granted. Not only am I familiar with the term, I owned a Carver product that had it (CT-17). As far as I know Bob Carver never did anything like the shenanigans of Shelby. But I suppose I am just dense - perhaps you will enlighten me. Patents are battled in the courts all the time, that doesn't necessarily reflect on the inventor, but only on the patent lawyers and their diligence or lack of it in research.

[mauriceminor]

Jun 13, 2013 18:14:10 GMT -5 mgbpuff said:

O.K. I'm not a patent attorney. But it looks like you are showing me a patent of Bob Carver's that was granted. Not only am I familiar with the term, I owned a Carver product that had it (CT-17). As far as I know Bob Carver never did anything like the shenanigans of Shelby. But I suppose I am just dense - perhaps you will enlighten me. Patents are battled in the courts all the time, that doesn't necessarily reflect on the inventor, but only on the patent lawyers and their diligence or lack of it in research.

Ecco.

[Chuck Elliot]

Jun 13, 2013 16:01:59 GMT -5 Andrew Robinson said:

Jun 13, 2013 15:55:05 GMT -5 Chuck Elliot said:

Still overpriced given that you can get this for < $800 built!

ST35 Clone

To be fair, one is $800 and looks like it was made in a garage -and not a clean one. Also, I hesitate to call anything that uses the term "clone" the same thing. Inspired by? Sure. Exactly the same? Ehh. I think $1,600 and change is a fair price, far fairer than $2,400. Just my 2-cents. 

First off the term "clone" is often used to reference new builds of the classic Dynaco ST-35 and St-70 amplifiers as this is.

It is built in a garage, so to speak, but Triode Electronics is a well respected garage in the tube hobbyist market.

I would certainly expect a better looking chassis from a bigger company, as the BM20 has. And, the volume production of Emotiva should make that no more expensive. I would also expect that the output transformers of the BM20 to be of the highest quality, sure the are. That is worth a few $100 more.

I stand by my statement that this is still over priced.

[1960broookwood]

Jun 13, 2013 18:14:10 GMT -5 mgbpuff said:

O.K. I'm not a patent attorney. But it looks like you are showing me a patent of Bob Carver's that was granted. Not only am I familiar with the term, I owned a Carver product that had it (CT-17). As far as I know Bob Carver never did anything like the shenanigans of Shelby. But I suppose I am just dense - perhaps you will enlighten me. Patents are battled in the courts all the time, that doesn't necessarily reflect on the inventor, but only on the patent lawyers and their diligence or lack of it in research.

As did I--and when the matching magnetic field amps went belly up "Carver" was defunct and I was stuck with them--only to arise from the ashes under another name and no liabilty for past defective products.

This amazing new technology sounds like a different take on an old idea.

Best of luck but I believe this line may be a hard sell at this pricing--but what do I know? I never thought bottled water or salad in a bag would sell either.

[Chuck Elliot]

Please allow me to add a few other things.

Although these style amps are sometimes called ST-35 and St-70 clones. What is under the hood is far different.

Time didn't stand still in 1960 only to be picked up in 2013. The driver circuits and power supplies have been vastly modified. Do a web search on "ST-70 driver boards" and you'll see.

My fear is that this is a product that is well outside the Emotiva model.

I would expect the market for a $1700 20 w/ch tube amplifier to be extremely small. And, I know that if this level of pricing holds, it will negate my purchase of a higher power Carver tube amp.

So, I guess it's gonna be a pair of XPA-1Ls for this boy.

[Andrew Robinson]

Jun 13, 2013 19:31:22 GMT -5 Chuck Elliot said:

So, I guess it's gonna be a pair of XPA-1Ls for this boy.

You say it as if a pair of XPA-1Ls is a bad thing.  

I run 1Ls to my left and right mains (Bowers & Wilkins CT 8.2 LCR) at the moment and i'm not sure it gets better. It gets more expensive, but better? I'm having a hard time reconciling that one, and I have "better" here and, well, yeah... In other words the 1L monos are stupid good. Awaiting the arrival of my second XPR-1 so that I can pit the two against each other. If my gut holds true, I actually think I may prefer the 1Ls to the XPR-1 -but we'll see. Keep in mind, I love the XPR-1, top five all time actually, but I just wasn't prepared for what Lonnie was able to do with the 1Ls.