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Post by Axis on Dec 12, 2015 13:20:04 GMT -5
You guys that have not heard the new Airmotiv Powered Monitor's they Rock ! What has blown me away is how smooth and natural the tweeters are. These speakers have Emotiva proprietary drivers. These drivers are excellent. I can not wait to hear them in a big cabinet.
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Post by Poodleluvr on Dec 12, 2015 13:38:53 GMT -5
I think both Emo subs already facing a strong strong strong competition! Without mentioning any manufactures but there are already proven good 12" powerful subs out there with free shipping and 45 day money back for a few hundred less (even cheaper if you get a pair) than the Emo 12" sub. Just saying.... I agree. I would of considered Emotiva sub(s), that is, if they had something for sale. The problem is, in constructive criticism, Emotiva has a tendency to drop a product line "Cold Turkey", without any replacement in the near future.-- None! I was waiting on the Emotiva ERS-212s which never came to fruition....  emotivalounge.proboards.com/thread/2307/ers-212-112-subwoofersI was very patient, but I'm sorry Emotiva, I can't wait forever.... Well, it was time to move on, so I purchased a HSU VTF-15H MK2 with the added 5-year transferable warranty. Absolutely no regrets. The end result is: Emotiva lost the sale...and I don't have deep enough pockets to potentially "upgrade" to a new Emotiva subwoofer offering in the near future.-- Not gonna happen. |
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klinemj
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Post by klinemj on Dec 12, 2015 13:42:38 GMT -5
Off topic, but the term "musical" needs to die.  There is no such thing as "musical", either the sub works well or it doesn't. A sub that plays back music really well will do the same for home theatre. You're just confusing newbies when you use such a term. Yeah, I agree. Instead, stuff like "good pacing" and "organic" should really determine if your sub (or speaker) is musical.  Now seriously, it isn't just a sub, but the speakers, too. Either they work well or they don't. Either they reproduce the source properly or they don't. I agree that "musical", "good pacing", and "organic" descriptors should be off limits. However, "spicey", "chocolatey", and "velvety" should be allowed and even encouraged. Mark |
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Post by yves on Dec 12, 2015 13:49:28 GMT -5
Off topic, but the term "musical" needs to die. There is no such thing as "musical", either the sub works well or it doesn't. A sub that plays back music really well will do the same for home theatre. You're just confusing newbies when you use such a term. What sounds musical to you may not sound musical to me, so I agree it is a very vague term in this regard, but the foot tapping factor is extraordinarily real nevertheless, so it certainly isn't as nonsensical as many think. Perhaps to those who resent music, it might be that...  |
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Post by monkumonku on Dec 12, 2015 13:53:26 GMT -5
Yeah, I agree. Instead, stuff like "good pacing" and "organic" should really determine if your sub (or speaker) is musical. Now seriously, it isn't just a sub, but the speakers, too. Either they work well or they don't. Either they reproduce the source properly or they don't. I agree that "musical", "good pacing", and "organic" descriptors should be off limits. However, "spicey", "chocolatey", and "velvety" should be allowed and even encouraged. Mark Chocolatey and velvety are more for stereo and spicey is multichannel, I'd say. |
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klinemj
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Post by klinemj on Dec 12, 2015 14:05:22 GMT -5
Dang, I keep forgetting that!
Maek
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Post by audiosyndrome on Dec 12, 2015 16:41:58 GMT -5
As you can see from my signature, I have some experience with Speaker building and have done alot of reading on the subject. I don't consider my self an expert but a well read observer and DIYer... Speaker building is never perfect. It is all a question of compromises. As what you are saying is true, it is not as simple as black/white. Time alignement is important at very high cross-over frequencies, but causes another issue. As you can see from your pictures, the tweeter is very distant from the midrange& woofer. This causes the listener to percieve two different sources of sound. This perception is more present at higher crossover frequencies. So the best is to listen and choose what you like. A sloped front baffle alone is not enough to time align the drivers. First order crossovers, where the tweeter and woofer are ALWAYS 90 degrees out of phase regardless of frequency, are also required. Any other combination of crossovers results in shifting phase (time delay) at different frequencies. Mr. Vandersteen, and Mr. Thiel (may he rest in peace) both have it right (but not the new Thiel BS speakers). Russ |
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Post by Kent on Dec 12, 2015 21:50:57 GMT -5
Off topic, but the term "musical" needs to die. There is no such thing as "musical", either the sub works well or it doesn't. A sub that plays back music really well will do the same for home theatre. You're just confusing newbies when you use such a term. Guys all I meant by "musical" is that it simply sounds good. I certainly hope nobody was confused. I agree a good sub or speaker will work well for home theatre and music?  |
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Post by Bonzo on Dec 15, 2015 12:13:24 GMT -5
elac.us/debutproducts/These things are already getting great reviews. They may be the low cost speakers to beat.
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Lsc
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Post by Lsc on Dec 15, 2015 12:31:14 GMT -5
Off topic, but the term "musical" needs to die. There is no such thing as "musical", either the sub works well or it doesn't. A sub that plays back music really well will do the same for home theatre. You're just confusing newbies when you use such a term. Guys all I meant by "musical" is that it simply sounds good. I certainly hope nobody was confused. I agree a good sub or speaker will work well for home theatre and music? There are more demands from a sub for a home theater from an SPL stand point than music. Also a sub can have a little bit more bloat for movies vs music where more control is more important than SPL. A great sub has both gobs of SPL and has great control. |
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Post by copperpipe on Dec 15, 2015 15:58:10 GMT -5
Guys all I meant by "musical" is that it simply sounds good. I certainly hope nobody was confused. I agree a good sub or speaker will work well for home theatre and music? There are more demands from a sub for a home theater from an SPL stand point than music. Also a sub can have a little bit more bloat for movies vs music where more control is more important than SPL. A great sub has both gobs of SPL and has great control. But that's the thing; if a sub only sounds good in home theatre then it is obvious that its deficiencies are being masked by the effects. If it can play music well, it will play home theatre well. We're not discussing SPL output levels as if that is the criteria to determine a good sub or bad; a good sub can still be small, you buy a sub (size) based on your needs. But a good sub is a good sub regardless of SPL level. Would you accept a speaker that played vocals really clear but had nasty highs and floppy lows? Nope, would be a poor speaker, you wouldn't claim "this is a very 'vocal' speaker!!" with a straight face. If it only sounds good in home theatre then you got ripped off and should drop it in the trash. I don't find "bloat in my movies" acceptable. |
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Post by monkumonku on Dec 15, 2015 16:12:52 GMT -5
There are more demands from a sub for a home theater from an SPL stand point than music. Also a sub can have a little bit more bloat for movies vs music where more control is more important than SPL. A great sub has both gobs of SPL and has great control. But that's the thing; if a sub only sounds good in home theatre then it is obvious that its deficiencies are being masked by the effects. If it can play music well, it will play home theatre well. We're not discussing SPL output levels as if that is the criteria to determine a good sub or bad; a good sub can still be small, you buy a sub (size) based on your needs. But a good sub is a good sub regardless of SPL level. Would you accept a speaker that played vocals really clear but had nasty highs and floppy lows? Nope, would be a poor speaker, you wouldn't claim "this is a very 'vocal' speaker!!" with a straight face. If it only sounds good in home theatre then you got ripped off and should drop it in the trash. I don't find "bloat in my movies" acceptable. I like subs that give me the FM disc jockey voice sound.  |
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klinemj
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Post by klinemj on Dec 15, 2015 16:25:18 GMT -5
elac.us/debutproducts/These things are already getting great reviews. They may be the low cost speakers to beat. I know a lot of people have liked many speakers in which Andrew Jones was involved. I have never heard any, but have read about people raving about them on other forums. Mark |
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Post by copperpipe on Dec 15, 2015 17:22:58 GMT -5
Well if I had a nickle for every speaker review that follows the line "these are incredible speakers for the price" I'd be loaded. There can't be that many incredible speakers for the price because then they'd all be incredible and so it follows that they would all then be "just regular speakers". There may not be much (in sound quality) that separates a $500 speaker from a $1500 speaker, but it's quite possible that what you're missing in the $500 speaker actually costs another $800 (in engineering, parts, research etc) to "get right". I'll stick with my Kef's! (Apologies for being so argumentative today) |
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Post by monkumonku on Dec 15, 2015 17:30:47 GMT -5
Well if I had a nickle for every speaker review that follows the line "these are incredible speakers for the price" I'd be loaded. There can't be that many incredible speakers for the price because then they'd all be incredible and so it follows that they would all then be "just regular speakers". There may not be much (in sound quality) that separates a $500 speaker from a $1500 speaker, but it's quite possible that what you're missing in the $500 speaker actually costs another $800 (in engineering, parts, research etc) to "get right". I'll stick with my Kef's! (Apologies for being so argumentative today) I'm right with you - if I had a nickle for every audio gear review that said their new stuff widened the soundstage, I'd have way more money than you with your "incredible speakers for the price." And if I got a penny for every comment about hearing things in recordings that were previously not heard, I'd be richer than Warren Buffet. And don't get me started on the air around the instruments... |
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Post by Cogito on Dec 15, 2015 17:53:33 GMT -5
All I have to say is, these new Emotiva speakers are going to have to be incredible as hell and/or cheap as hell to compete with the very crowded market of "great bang for the buck" offerings already available from a plethora of manufacturers.
BTW Emotiva, I believe I asked for a full range ribbon speaker system. What happened??? Jeez...
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Post by Percussionista on Dec 15, 2015 18:15:17 GMT -5
BTW Emotiva, I believe I asked for a full range ribbon speaker system. What happened??? Jeez... Whoa nelly! I owned a pair of Apogee Duetta mk. II's for many years, speaking of full-range ribbon speakers. They were very sweet, but needed really good stable wide-ranging power (i.e., like Emotiva ;-)), but not e.g. like the (Carver) Phase Linear 400's I had initially. Such puppy's are not trivial to design, and are large and wide. Most of the speaker is the bass panel, and used many heavy electromagnets. Think Magnepan on steroids, not shy at the bass end. Anyway, if you have the right room they were gorgeous, but are too wide around a large TV in a more modest room, though of course for just a music system they were great. Forget cathedral ceilings, they swallow the sound and make orchestras sound like you are looking at them through a window. These Apogees were di-pole; hard to say how a newer design would work if they only emitted forwards. Apogee made a third iteration of the Duetta's, even more robust, and those ran for about $5000 (lots of color/design choices), not really in the Emotiva "price range", though of course part of that was dealer profit. They also had a higher end unit, that was 3-way, with a long vertical mid-range ribbon next to the tweeter ribbon, and an even taller unit. They went for 10 large! I should be mentioning, the Duettas were trapezoidal, and were over 2 feet wide, slightly different width top and bottom, and were 5 feet tall. The larger 3-way units (sorry, I don't remember their moniker), were 6 feet tall ;-) |
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Post by Bonzo on Dec 15, 2015 18:28:06 GMT -5
The thing is once Emotiva puts out their speakers the Emotiva lover people here who buy them are going to lavishly ooze with blue cool aid about what awesome speakers they are. They are going to say the same kind of things you are knocking. People are going to buy them hand over fist without even hearing them, and they are going to love the way they sound because they are Emotiva. There won't be enough positive expletives.
Perhaps off topic but I'll say it anyway, on the flip side I find it somewhat hypocritical that people around here don't seem to even want to hear about other bang for the buck brands like Golden Ear (which also use the folded motion tweeter people here love to gush about in Emotiva products) or Def Tech or Polk because they act like Sandy Gross is a highly over rated nobody or something (yet when Andrew Robinson gives one single glowing review of the little known Tekton speaker brand, everyone here signs up for the rose colored glasses cool aid). Never mind these new ELAC's that are designed by another famous speaker guy, a guy with a great reputation. A guy that a while back was rumored to be working with Emotiva. OMG can you imagine the absolute gushing that would go on here if that turned out to be true. I'd probably throw up. Farther out still, imagine if Sandy Gross started working with Emotiva; boy do I bet the luke warm to cool Sandy Gross sentiments around here would do an about face.
The simple fact is everyone has a different sense of hearing, and everyone has a different environment in which their system works. There are splendidly built speakers that don't sound good, and crappy speakers that sound okay for the little investment (like say Dayton Audio). There are a lot of speakers that are fairly well made and sound really good in the $1000 - $5000 category, but they all sound a little different, and to each their own there. There is no one perfect speaker for everyone. I'm not going to fault someone for liking Paradigm or Klipsch (brands I don't care for myself) and not liking Def Tech for their sound. The best sound I've ever heard was Wilson Audio driven by Krell electronics, but it was a $50,000+ system more than 10 years ago. So then how is a person supposed to discuss speaker sound and how they perform? Really. I'm not sure. Since one guy hears differently than me, how do I know I'll even like what he hears? Until every speaker maker in the world has a 30 day free return in house trial with their speakers, and you can line multiple brands up and do blind listening tests, and none of have to spend time working for a living, it's totally impossible. So yeah, you have to take a reviewer's words with a grain of salt sometimes. But when consistently good reviews come on from all manner of places, and when the competing magazines all show the same sort of reviews and results, then I think it's safe to say that you at least owe the brand a listen to decide for yourself.
Soapbox over.
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Post by adaboy on Dec 15, 2015 19:46:09 GMT -5
The thing is once Emotiva puts out their speakers the Emotiva lover people here who buy them are going to lavishly ooze with blue cool aid about what awesome speakers they are. They are going to say the same kind of things you are knocking. People are going to buy them hand over fist without even hearing them, and they are going to love the way they sound because they are Emotiva. There won't be enough positive expletives. Perhaps off topic but I'll say it anyway, on the flip side I find it somewhat hypocritical that people around here don't seem to even want to hear about other bang for the buck brands like Golden Ear (which also use the folded motion tweeter people here love to gush about in Emotiva products) or Def Tech or Polk because they act like Sandy Gross is a highly over rated nobody or something (yet when Andrew Robinson gives one single glowing review of the little known Tekton speaker brand, everyone here signs up for the rose colored glasses cool aid). Never mind these new ELAC's that are designed by another famous speaker guy, a guy with a great reputation. A guy that a while back was rumored to be working with Emotiva. OMG can you imagine the absolute gushing that would go on here if that turned out to be true. I'd probably throw up. Farther out still, imagine if Sandy Gross started working with Emotiva; boy do I bet the luke warm to cool Sandy Gross sentiments around here would do an about face. The simple fact is everyone has a different sense of hearing, and everyone has a different environment in which their system works. There are splendidly built speakers that don't sound good, and crappy speakers that sound okay for the little investment (like say Dayton Audio). There are a lot of speakers that are fairly well made and sound really good in the $1000 - $5000 category, but they all sound a little different, and to each their own there. There is no one perfect speaker for everyone. I'm not going to fault someone for liking Paradigm or Klipsch (brands I don't care for myself) and not liking Def Tech for their sound. The best sound I've ever heard was Wilson Audio driven by Krell electronics, but it was a $50,000+ system more than 10 years ago. So then how is a person supposed to discuss speaker sound and how they perform? Really. I'm not sure. Since one guy hears differently than me, how do I know I'll even like what he hears? Until every speaker maker in the world has a 30 day free return in house trial with their speakers, and you can line multiple brands up and do blind listening tests, and none of have to spend time working for a living, it's totally impossible. So yeah, you have to take a reviewer's words with a grain of salt sometimes. But when consistently good reviews come on from all manner of places, and when the competing magazines all show the same sort of reviews and results, then I think it's safe to say that you at least owe the brand a listen to decide for yourself. Soapbox over. Good point B, I listened to Golden Ears and didn't like them after hearing Magnepans (wide midrange). Def Tech makes some good speakers but are more expensive than the Emo's that's for sure. I've hear Wilson's top of the line speakers demo'ed by the head guy here in Scottsdale AZ and I was not impressed for the dollar amount they wanted. As far as the new EMO speakers I'm waiting for the larger versions. I wish I could hear them ahead of time though. I agree there are way more bang for the buck speakers out there that could kick these to the curb at least until we hear them. |
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Lsc
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Post by Lsc on Dec 15, 2015 21:52:46 GMT -5
There are more demands from a sub for a home theater from an SPL stand point than music. Also a sub can have a little bit more bloat for movies vs music where more control is more important than SPL. A great sub has both gobs of SPL and has great control. But that's the thing; if a sub only sounds good in home theatre then it is obvious that its deficiencies are being masked by the effects. If it can play music well, it will play home theatre well. We're not discussing SPL output levels as if that is the criteria to determine a good sub or bad; a good sub can still be small, you buy a sub (size) based on your needs. But a good sub is a good sub regardless of SPL level. Would you accept a speaker that played vocals really clear but had nasty highs and floppy lows? Nope, would be a poor speaker, you wouldn't claim "this is a very 'vocal' speaker!!" with a straight face. If it only sounds good in home theatre then you got ripped off and should drop it in the trash. I don't find "bloat in my movies" acceptable. IMHO a good sub for music can be a below par sub for movies because of its lack of power. In my experience the level of clarity and transparency is less demanding for movies vs music. For example, my crappy Onkyo 708 that I still have but repurposed was good enough for movies, however it was terrible for music and unlistenable. Room size matter as well. For example a SVS SB-2000 would be a good music sub IMHO but probably not a great movie sub vs the PB12-plus which is a very nice movie sub. |
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There is no such thing as "musical", either the sub works well or it doesn't. A sub that plays back music really well will do the same for home theatre. You're just confusing newbies when you use such a term.
Now seriously, it isn't just a sub, but the speakers, too. Either they work well or they don't. Either they reproduce the source properly or they don't. 
