Lsc
Emo VIPs 
Posts: 3,435
|
Post by Lsc on Feb 15, 2014 15:42:59 GMT -5
Yeah right. Cathy is mean...forget that  . Also, the upgrades will not be free nor should they be. The biggest limitation is the number of channels. If 9.2 or 11.2 becomes the norm, then the XMC-1 will be obsolete. So I agree it probably won't happen. Especially with the former Theta guy in charge...but conversely with the former theta guy, I'm confident it'll sound awesome. I don't care about 2.0 and I care less about the upgrade factor. I'm buying it as is. 9.2 or 11.2 will never become the norm. 90% are 5.1! Huge speakers counts for home use IMHO is ridiculous unless you live in a McMansion. IMHO 7.2 is the most any home user would need unless they have a dedicated room seating 10-20 people. Never say never. I agree 5.1 is enough but can we predict he future? Yes! You succeeded! This is your first post where I understood every word. |
|
|
|
Post by RightinLA on Feb 15, 2014 15:45:16 GMT -5
Understandably a lot of people are disappointed and he jumped the gun, but his explanation yesterday makes sense and regardless, the status of 2.0 is what it is. I have a feeling a lot of people can't make use of it anyway, it's just nice to say you have HDMI 2.0. If Dan had said the XMC-1 will have HDMI 5.0 and USB 6.0, people would have gone wild heaping praise on him even though no such thing exists and when he then said that the XMC-1 would NOT have these two things, the flurry of complaints would begin. People get more upset when you take away something they never had in the first place, than when you don't give it to begin with. Spot on, but we can't blame the faithful here (the consumer). They, Emotiva, do this stuff time and time and time again. Seriously, they need to tune out from the Lounge, stop being baited into sharing what is believed (wishful of not) to be accurate info, step away from the keyboard, and focus on developing their product(s), and when they're ready, they're ready. Knee-jerk reactions to unknown surprises within practically the same breath does not portray long term focus, planning and organization. Sorry, but it's true. What is of greater concern is the fact that Dan unfortunately doesn't know what he is talking about too much of the time. It is either the date, the cost, the features, or the technology. He does it, gets it wrong, apologizes for it, says he won't do it again, then oops he does it again ..... Then there are the faithful praetorian guard that comes to his rescue... What project management guide and what QA procedure does Emotiva follow? Just shoot from the hip? Dan, you must learn to under-promise and over-deliver. The marketing hype gets you into trouble when it doesn't pan out. Please only state what is known as a technically verified certainty. Remember that silence is sometimes "Golden". |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 15, 2014 15:49:29 GMT -5
Spot on, but we can't blame the faithful here (the consumer). They, Emotiva, do this stuff time and time and time again. Seriously, they need to tune out from the Lounge, stop being baited into sharing what is believed (wishful of not) to be accurate info, step away from the keyboard, and focus on developing their product(s), and when they're ready, they're ready. Knee-jerk reactions to unknown surprises within practically the same breath does not portray long term focus, planning and organization. Sorry, but it's true. What is of greater concern is the fact that Dan unfortunately doesn't know what he is talking about too much of the time. It is either the date, the cost, the features, or the technology. He does it, gets it wrong, apologizes for it, says he won't do it again, then oops he does it again ..... Then there are the faithful praetorian guard that comes to his rescue... What project management guide and what QA procedure does Emotiva follow? Just shoot from the hip? Finally someone other than me gets it!! It's the constant let down that is the issue. It honestly makes the whole company look like a Mickey Mouse operation. I now know why it's bashed on other forums. |
|
bootman
Emo VIPs
Typing useless posts on internet forums....
Posts: 9,358
|
Post by bootman on Feb 15, 2014 15:50:47 GMT -5
I have a tendency to not criticize or not be a back seat driver, especially when I don't have all the possible facts that go into decisions. Secondly I've never walked a mile in Dan's shoes, so saying I could do a better job than he will never happen until I have. As for making one wonder, why do so many keep coming back if they still aren't interested in what Emotiva has to offer, or is it some want to always be the one to say "I Told You So"? Whatever the case may be, I appreciate Dan's dedication and passion for his customers to bring products that we want to market. There are those that will always say "I told you so" and many long time folks here know who they are. I just want accurate information to make an informed buying decision. I honestly can't say I have seen that from the company 100% of the time and I've been here virtually from the beginning. Like you, I want to see this thing just kick ass. But man have the faithful been on a wild roller coaster since 2008 and you can't expect everyone who has still been on not to get a little queasy by now. I think if the beta testers (there are beta testers right?) would be allowed to post their thoughts, maybe the masses would not be so restless. |
|
|
|
Post by monkumonku on Feb 15, 2014 16:00:21 GMT -5
Understandably a lot of people are disappointed and he jumped the gun, but his explanation yesterday makes sense and regardless, the status of 2.0 is what it is. I have a feeling a lot of people can't make use of it anyway, it's just nice to say you have HDMI 2.0. If Dan had said the XMC-1 will have HDMI 5.0 and USB 6.0, people would have gone wild heaping praise on him even though no such thing exists and when he then said that the XMC-1 would NOT have these two things, the flurry of complaints would begin. People get more upset when you take away something they never had in the first place, than when you don't give it to begin with. Spot on, but we can't blame the faithful here (the consumer). They, Emotiva, do this stuff time and time and time again. Seriously, they need to tune out from the Lounge, stop being baited into sharing what is believed (wishful of not) to be accurate info, step away from the keyboard, and focus on developing their product(s), and when they're ready, they're ready. Knee-jerk reactions to unknown surprises within practically the same breath does not portray long term focus, planning and organization. Sorry, but it's true. Agreed, that's a point well taken. That said, those of us who have been in the lounge a while know Dan is Dan and he gets so enthusiastic about stuff I guess he can't help from bubbling over. That doesn't make it right but I appreciate how his enthusiasm has translated into many great products. |
|
|
|
Post by solidstate on Feb 15, 2014 16:04:43 GMT -5
Precisely, it is the nature of the claims. It is very disappointing to get this on a regular basis from Franklin TN. What are you getting on a regular basis? Open frank (no pun intended) sharing of information from a manufacturer? Do you know of any other brands that would be this open with us? So Dan confused the 1.4b spec with full blown 2.0 BIG DEAL You guys should be pleased that transceiver supports cross point matrixed switching. We all should be asking about this ability as it relates to the DSP. Hopefully they are setting up the two audio streams outta the AD7625 into their DSP engine and allowing us to watch one source whist listening to another IE video out on HDMI 1 with audio from HDMI 2. THIS IS A FANTASTIC FEATURE and what makes that AD7625 special. |
|
|
|
Post by audiobill on Feb 15, 2014 16:05:15 GMT -5
Spot on, but we can't blame the faithful here (the consumer). They, Emotiva, do this stuff time and time and time again. Seriously, they need to tune out from the Lounge, stop being baited into sharing what is believed (wishful of not) to be accurate info, step away from the keyboard, and focus on developing their product(s), and when they're ready, they're ready. Knee-jerk reactions to unknown surprises within practically the same breath does not portray long term focus, planning and organization. Sorry, but it's true. What is of greater concern is the fact that Dan unfortunately doesn't know what he is talking about too much of the time. It is either the date, the cost, the features, or the technology. He does it, gets it wrong, apologizes for it, says he won't do it again, then oops he does it again ..... Then there are the faithful praetorian guard that comes to his rescue... What project management guide and what QA procedure does Emotiva follow? Just shoot from the hip? Dan, you must learn to under-promise and over-deliver. The marketing hype gets you into trouble when it doesn't pan out. Please only state what is known as a technically verified certainty. Remember that silence is sometimes "Golden". What a creepy post..... |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 15, 2014 16:08:53 GMT -5
What is of greater concern is the fact that Dan unfortunately doesn't know what he is talking about too much of the time. It is either the date, the cost, the features, or the technology. He does it, gets it wrong, apologizes for it, says he won't do it again, then oops he does it again ..... Then there are the faithful praetorian guard that comes to his rescue... What project management guide and what QA procedure does Emotiva follow? Just shoot from the hip? Dan, you must learn to under-promise and over-deliver. The marketing hype gets you into trouble when it doesn't pan out. Please only state what is known as a technically verified certainty. Remember that silence is sometimes "Golden". What a creepy post..... Creepy because it's true??? |
|
|
|
Post by Keith M on Feb 15, 2014 16:09:41 GMT -5
What is of greater concern is the fact that Dan unfortunately doesn't know what he is talking about too much of the time. It is either the date, the cost, the features, or the technology. He does it, gets it wrong, apologizes for it, says he won't do it again, then oops he does it again ..... Then there are the faithful praetorian guard that comes to his rescue... What project management guide and what QA procedure does Emotiva follow? Just shoot from the hip? Dan, you must learn to under-promise and over-deliver. The marketing hype gets you into trouble when it doesn't pan out. Please only state what is known as a technically verified certainty. Remember that silence is sometimes "Golden". I think someone explained under-promise and over-deliver to Dan once and he got confused and started doing it backwards. It's amazing that after one screw up after another with the XMC-1 that they managed to do it again. They came out a few weeks ago and said "Hey, we dropped the ball again and won't hit our promised release date, but we're really close, we promise. Oh, and we're going to HDMI 2.0, so it's all good, right?" How do you screw that up in such a short period of time? But what's also pathetic is the way they handled the fact they were reverting back. They know their fans are looking for info, and were expecting it on 2/14. So what did they do? They updated the web page throughout the day. First it said 8 inputs and there were new images, but left it at 1.4. So people, including me, started looking into the details and seeing all the incorrect specs and hoped that 1.4 was perhaps just another typo. And Emotiva read the forum, made some edits as we pointed out the problems, then a few hours later Dan came out and announced the 1.4b revision. Who pushes out changes to a web page one line at a time? Maybe Emotiva will learn from this and not talk about it again until it's on the truck heading to people's houses. Oh, as for the modular design. Hasn't that been stated from the outset? Why are people acting like that's a new feature? I haven't been following this the whole five years, but over the past year or so I know I've seen modularity mentioned a lot by Emotiva. |
|
|
|
Post by solidstate on Feb 15, 2014 16:14:39 GMT -5
I want to see a picture of the ANALOG SECTION. That's where things really happen! How many DSD1793 are used and what opamps are used in the I/V? Looks like JRCs to me... This is the best picture we got.  I think surfacemount/opamp is better than discrete and hey you don't have the PCB real-estate right. The problem with this is though you can't use TO99 cans and they are the best sounding opamps around IMHO if implemeneted properly. I can't see what JRC part that is and it's a shame they are not OPA627AU but those cost like $12 bucks a pop. I think they are 5532s though I'm not certain. 5532 is bi-polar whilst OPA627 is Di-FET. BTW the 5532 has been a staple in hifi for years and a very good opamp. |
|
|
|
Post by solidstate on Feb 15, 2014 16:33:47 GMT -5
|
|
|
|
Post by 2muchht on Feb 15, 2014 16:42:17 GMT -5
...So Dan confused the 1.4b spec with full blown 2.0 BIG DEAL... Yes, it is a big deal. This is not a small thing and not being able to understand the difference between the two, or to have someone inside point that out is an indication of more than just Dan's well known over exuberance about these sorts of things. As others have pointed out, this isn't the first time this has happened as anyone who is still waiting for the HDMI 1.4 upgrade to the UMC-1 can attest. It reminds one of a quote from Norm Abrams, the guru of woodwork and other things in the early years of This Old House: "Measure twice, cut once." This time Dan didn't step back to look at what he was about to say before he said it, IMHO. ...You guys should be pleased that transceiver supports cross point matrixed switching. We all should be asking about this ability as it relates to the DSP. Hopefully they are setting up the two audio streams outta the AD7625 into their DSP engine and allowing us to watch one source whist listening to another IE video out on HDMI 1 with audio from HDMI 2. THIS IS A FANTASTIC FEATURE and what makes that AD7625 special. Yes, but it is no different than what numerous other brands have been doing for at least two product cycles with parts from Silicon Image using their matrix switch HDMI solutions. In those applications you can watch AND/OR listen to two different sources at each of the HDMI outputs. No big deal to do as proven by Denon, Onkyo, etc. With those parts you can even have a PIP-like window to preview the various input sources. [Edited to add this update] While Silicon Image and ADI are the leading providers of HDMI parts, there are others. Panasonic is making their HDMI 2.0 compliant parts available on a merchant basis as announced here last September: tinyurl.com/o4rsgqn. This is one of the first parts publically announced to have the full bandwidth required for ALL possible iterations within HDMI 2.0 as well as, one presumes, HDCP 2.2. One has to believe that there are other parts available to TV, player, STB and AVR manufacturers that also have this sort of capability that we don't know about because they are under NDA. For example, one wonders what parts Sony is using in the upgrades discussed elsewhere in the Lounge. |
|
|
|
Post by solidstate on Feb 15, 2014 16:53:29 GMT -5
...So Dan confused the 1.4b spec with full blown 2.0 BIG DEAL... Yes, it is a big deal. This is not a small thing and not being able to understand the difference between the two, or to have someone inside point that out is an indication of more than just Dan's well known over exuberance about these sorts of things. As others have pointed out, this isn't the first time this has happened as anyone who is still waiting for the HDMI 1.4 upgrade to the UMC-1 can attest. It reminds one of a quote from Norm Abrams, the guru of woodwork and other things in the early years of This Old House: "Measure twice, cut once." This time Dan didn't step back to look at what he was about to say before he said it, IMHO. ...You guys should be pleased that transceiver supports cross point matrixed switching. We all should be asking about this ability as it relates to the DSP. Hopefully they are setting up the two audio streams outta the AD7625 into their DSP engine and allowing us to watch one source whist listening to another IE video out on HDMI 1 with audio from HDMI 2. THIS IS A FANTASTIC FEATURE and what makes that AD7625 special. Yes, but it is no different than what numerous other brands have been doing for at least two product cycles with parts from Silicon Image using their matrix switch HDMI solutions. In those applications you can watch AND/OR listen to two different sources at each of the HDMI outputs. No big deal to do as proven by Denon, Onkyo, etc. With those parts you can even have a PIP-like window to preview the various input sources. Please name another product that allows cross mux A/V on two HDMI inputs other than the Yamaha CX-A5000 please. I'm not talking second zone HDMI matrix here. I'm talking audio video cross point from one zone one selected sourced switching audio source to another HDMI input for it's audio only. Devices can do it but only on analog and sometimes SP/DIF audio signals. |
|
|
|
Post by solidstate on Feb 15, 2014 17:04:14 GMT -5
What good is that unless you are talking some kinda distribution system in a big house. This is a DSP thing as well as a TDMS transceiver trip passing two I2S. I'm talking cross point AV HDMI sources within main zone not passing the audio mux out one of two HDMI outputs. That's a function of a networked HDMI matrix switch with AV cross point from the likes of Crestron et al. I'm talking local DSP engine AV cross point here and the only unit I've seen do it with HDMI HDCP sources is the Yamaha CX-A5000.
|
|
|
|
Post by garbulky on Feb 15, 2014 17:06:09 GMT -5
Yes, it is a big deal. This is not a small thing and not being able to understand the difference between the two, or to have someone inside point that out is an indication of more than just Dan's well known over exuberance about these sorts of things. As others have pointed out, this isn't the first time this has happened as anyone who is still waiting for the HDMI 1.4 upgrade to the UMC-1 can attest. It reminds one of a quote from Norm Abrams, the guru of woodwork and other things in the early years of This Old House: "Measure twice, cut once." This time Dan didn't step back to look at what he was about to say before he said it, IMHO. Yes, but it is no different than what numerous other brands have been doing for at least two product cycles with parts from Silicon Image using their matrix switch HDMI solutions. In those applications you can watch AND/OR listen to two different sources at each of the HDMI outputs. No big deal to do as proven by Denon, Onkyo, etc. With those parts you can even have a PIP-like window to preview the various input sources. Please name another product that allows cross mux A/V on two HDMI inputs other than the Yamaha CX-A5000 please. I'm not talking second zone HDMI matrix here. I'm talking audio video cross point from one zone one selected sourced switching audio source to another HDMI input for it's audio only. Devices can do it but only on analog and sometimes SP/DIF audio signals. I got to confess I'm not 100% sure what you mean. (But I admire the passion you have). Could you describe maybe in more simple terms what this is and also where it says that it does in the XMC-1 description? Is it in the second audio zone section? Because I didn't see anything about HDMI there. |
|
|
|
Post by solidstate on Feb 15, 2014 17:48:54 GMT -5
Please name another product that allows cross mux A/V on two HDMI inputs other than the Yamaha CX-A5000 please. I'm not talking second zone HDMI matrix here. I'm talking audio video cross point from one zone one selected sourced switching audio source to another HDMI input for it's audio only. Devices can do it but only on analog and sometimes SP/DIF audio signals. I got to confess I'm not 100% sure what you mean. (But I admire the passion you have). Could you describe maybe in more simple terms what this is and also where it says that it does in the XMC-1 description? Is it in the second audio zone section? Because I didn't see anything about HDMI there. HDMI carries audio and video right garbulky. It enters the XMC-1 and passes onto the AD7625. The AD7625 is a TDMS transceiver that has the ability to take that HDMI input or TDMS signal and then pass the video onto the HDMI 1 or HDMI 2 outputs and perhaps the audio as well. When we say it's matrixed we are saying that it has the ability to pass video from two of the selected inputs DISCRETELY and to pass the signal onto one of the two outputs and to be able to do this simultaneously IE selected HDMI input 3 to go to HDMI output 1 whilst HDMI input 4 is sent to HDMI output 2. ALAS!!! What about audio! Well the audio is also entering that AD7625 from your HDMI source right. Well it has to pass this audio onto the DSP engine to be decoded into multiple channels and in this case it's a TI twin DA710. The bus used to pass this signal is called I2S or Integrated Interchip Sound. Most HDMI or TDMS transceivers can only pass ONE I2S stream from one of it's selected HDMI inputs and send it onto the DSP. This is due to technical restraints involving HDCP keys et al. and that ability of that transceiver to pull the audio outta two TDMS streams SIMULTANEOUSLY and pass them via two I2S buses onto the DSP engine. Well this is only part of the battle. The DSP engine has to then have the ability to process both audio streams and matrix the audio to either main zone outs or second zone outs. A lot of gear does this but usually the audio switching is done IN THE ANALOG DOMAIN in order to pass audio to the second zone outs. In some instances they use the SP/DIF into DSP but mostly matrixed audio is done with analog and microcontrollers. It's also important to realize the DSP engine in these case scenarios is taking one multi chan mux and sending it to it's DACs but generally the second zone is only stereo in terms of output DACs. In some cases though I've seen in RARELY the audio part of the mux will pass out the HDMI output but you'll need another device at the end with a DSP engine to decode the multi channels right. In most cases I've seen the audio if DTS-HD or other lossless it's not passed out the HDMI output. Generally it's a 2 channel audio signal if any signal at all. OK So what is the cross point thing? Remember our TDMS stream has a video AND audio component. Matrixing the stream to video outputs whilst decoding the audio FROM ONLY ONE OF THEM and perhaps passing an SP/DIF signal from the second source to a stereo DAC is OK and fine and dandy BUT cross pointing is taking that AV MUX and breaking it down into it's audio and video components and then again matrix switching BUT with each component IE audio/video DISCRETELY. This means not only could I watch HDMI input 3 on HDMI output 1 and decode HDMI 3s I2S stream I could also if I so wanted switch the audio to HDMI input 4 currently being sent out HDMI 2 and listen to it in zone 1 in multi channel. Remember though I'm currently switched to HDMI input 3 and it's going out HDMI output 1 into my TV BUT the audio I'm getting out the speakers is from HDMI input 4. This is what A/V cross point is. Not only matrixing the AV as a single TDMS stream but having the ability to break that stream into it's components (audio and video) and matrix switch each discretely. We have not had the ability to do this until very recently because once the stream is converted to I2S it's NOT PROTECTED so this involves HDCP decrypting and a bunch of other stuff I'd have a hard time explaining to you guys. Basically it involves dual HDCP decryption engines on the TDMS transceiver and the ability to cache KSV/EDID data. |
|
|
|
Post by billmac on Feb 15, 2014 17:51:18 GMT -5
I got to confess I'm not 100% sure what you mean. I think that is the norm with posts from Solid State. Sometimes people say and post the wildest things that no one has a clue about what they are saying. No offense to Solid State but I just don't bother reading his posts because of the overly technical mumbo jumbo that I wonder if even he understands  . Bill |
|
|
|
Post by RightinLA on Feb 15, 2014 17:57:55 GMT -5
I got to confess I'm not 100% sure what you mean. I think that is the norm with posts from Solid State. Sometimes people say and post the wildest things that no one has a clue about what they are saying. No offense to Solid State but I just don't bother reading his posts because of the overly technical mumbo jumbo that I wonder if even he understands . Bill Now come on, the highlight of my day is to read a post by solidstate. From my perspective, on almost all technical issues, he adds some very good commentary. Take the terms you don't understand and play with Google. There is a wealth of information to learn from him and some additional research. |
|
|
|
Post by solidstate on Feb 15, 2014 18:15:16 GMT -5
I think that is the norm with posts from Solid State. Sometimes people say and post the wildest things that no one has a clue about what they are saying. No offense to Solid State but I just don't bother reading his posts because of the overly technical mumbo jumbo that I wonder if even he understands . Bill Now come on, the highlight of my day is to read a post by solidstate. From my perspective, on almost all technical issues, he adds some very good commentary. Take the terms you don't understand and play with Google. There is a wealth of information to learn from him and some additional research. Hey thanks guy! We should all stop here for a moment and catch our breath. We are all excited this piece is finally going to ship before summer vacation but we should all, me included especially, try not to be so emotional about our opinions and perceptions. We all know Dan and friends are GOOD GUYS and wear their hearts on their sleeves! This is why they are compelled to even share this information with us. I honestly don't know of any others that would be this open with the public. We should also understand this has become more than just another piece of electronics. People in this industry have been watching as audio video processors have become very complex and a lot of small EE design houses simply lack the ability to design such a complex component due to lack of software development skills and other factors. They might be amazing audio engineers that can design great amps and even implement microcontroller control/monitoring and design great tube amps or a nice analog balanced preamp but that's a hell of a lot shy of programming a sophisticated DSP engine tied to HDMI AV transport with a video overlay and multi channel decoding with zone switching! There is many thousands of lines of code involved in doing something as simple as switching audio video HDMI sources as I described above! At this point pride and ego is involved and I assure you Dan and friends will deliver the best product they are capable of designing and implementing. The fact Dan has literally thrown perhaps two major designs into the TRASH BIN equating to thousands and thousands of dollars because they were "not good enough" outta tell us something. The fact he tried to use Boz's code base and now the fact he's gone to the Swedes outta tell you HIS HEART IS IN IT TO DELIVER THE GOODS!!! You guys should also understand that Dan is the president of the company and not chief engineer or head of the development team. To suggest his misunderstanding of HDMI 1.4b vs 2.x considering on the spec sheet 1.4b 340 mhz can sent single chan TDMS at 4K is him somehow trying to hype something in a dishonest way is utterly RIDICULOUS and UNFAIR. |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 15, 2014 18:23:43 GMT -5
He AND Lonnie touted hdmi 2.0. Nice try!!!
He IS the lead engineer.
It couldn't be more clear!! They couldn't hit a deadline thy swore at emofest and December webcast would happen, and tried to cover it up by offering "an even better" processor with hdmi 2.0. Which was a flat out lie hoping to calm the masses since they kisses ANOTHER announced date of release.
Now that the spec sheet is out, and the truth revealed. Time to admit he wasn't 100% honest. And time to fess up
If you don't read that or see that then I want what your drinking...
Man this place I tell you!! Lmfao
|
|
. 
.