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Post by ansat on Jan 1, 2015 2:55:42 GMT -5
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Post by weigle2 on Jan 1, 2015 8:10:16 GMT -5
The answer is simple, one sub woofer. Trying to get multiple subs each with with 17 metre (20 hz) wavelengths to operate correctly in the average domestic room is an exercise in frustration. Non symetrical layouts just make it even harder. Frankly I don't find the results worth the effort, a good quality single sub with a decent power amp has done it better for me without the pain and heartache. Happy New Year Gary I completely believe this also. How much low end bass does one need nowadays? I have recently been looking to replace the SVS PB12 Ultra with a PSA XVFse30. So I guess it's do as I say, not as I do. Happy New Year! |
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Post by barrak on Jan 1, 2015 10:10:29 GMT -5
The answer is simple, one sub woofer. Trying to get multiple subs each with with 17 metre (20 hz) wavelengths to operate correctly in the average domestic room is an exercise in frustration. Non symetrical layouts just make it even harder. Frankly I don't find the results worth the effort, a good quality single sub with a decent power amp has done it better for me without the pain and heartache. Happy New Year Gary I completely believe this also. How much low end bass does one need nowadays? I have recently been looking to replace the SVS PB12 Ultra with a PSA XVFse30. So I guess it's do as I say, not as I do. Happy New Year! Possible reasons for multiple subs: 1. Large rooms need a lot of air moved. 2. Separate duties; a brute sub for LFE and another more nimble one (sealed) for music bass management. 3. Filling each other's nulls, especially when sub placement options are restricted. 4. Some people never have enough clean bass. 5. Some rooms/speakers require high crossover points which dictate stereo subs. |
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Post by ansat on Jan 1, 2015 10:20:49 GMT -5
I completely believe this also. How much low end bass does one need nowadays? I have recently been looking to replace the SVS PB12 Ultra with a PSA XVFse30. So I guess it's do as I say, not as I do. Happy New Year! Possible reasons for multiple subs: 1. Large rooms need a lot of air moved. 2. Separate duties; a brute sub for LFE and another more nimble one (sealed) for music bass management. 3. Filling each other's nulls, especially when sub placement options are restricted. 4. Some people never have enough clean bass. 5. Some rooms/speakers require high crossover points which dictate stereo subs. 6. More effecient bass - 2 subs running at 100 watts is the same as 1 sub running at 400 watts. 7. Cost - energy at 20hz is costly, 2 subs can get you +6db usually cheaper then a single subwoofer. 8. WAF - the wife will usually rather have two smaller 10s or 12s over a larger 18. Tony |
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Post by barrak on Jan 1, 2015 11:16:59 GMT -5
Possible reasons for multiple subs: 1. Large rooms need a lot of air moved. 2. Separate duties; a brute sub for LFE and another more nimble one (sealed) for music bass management. 3. Filling each other's nulls, especially when sub placement options are restricted. 4. Some people never have enough clean bass. 5. Some rooms/speakers require high crossover points which dictate stereo subs. 6. More effecient bass - 2 subs running at 100 watts is the same as 1 sub running at 400 watts. 7. Cost - energy at 20hz is costly, 2 subs can get you +6db usually cheaper then a single subwoofer. 8. WAF - the wife will usually rather have two smaller 10s or 12s over a larger 18. Tony Couldn't resist... one more: 9. Distortion... overwhelmed subs can over-heat or go beyond their linear range (which most probably is within manufacturer's declared specs). Either would cause distortion. If you're using one of those subs with a 10" woofer in a 1 cubic foot box with built-in 1000+ watts, then you've never heared/felt clean bass. |
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Post by lbrown105 on Jan 1, 2015 11:18:13 GMT -5
I have found 3 large horn subs to be best at evening out the room, if you have the control options needed to optimize.  |
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Post by Gary Cook on Jan 1, 2015 14:32:05 GMT -5
Hardly the first time I've had this discussion. The initial issue is that some people confuse woofers with sub woofers, for example if we are running a pair of 10's crossed over at 200 hz then they are not sub woofers. They are simply performing the role that integrated woofers would in a decent stereo speaker pair. Bass is directional at around 80 Hz and above, so having an appropriately placed pair of woofers to supplement the L and R is both logical and justified.
But they aren't sub woofers and a lot of the justification that some apply to having/needing multiplies is simply a recognition that stereo woofers have and always will be a necessity for good stereo music listening. Acknowledging this rules out 90% of the justifications ie; leaving only the "some people can never have enough" reason.
Happy New Year
Gary
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Post by barrak on Jan 1, 2015 16:34:57 GMT -5
Hardly the first time I've had this discussion. The initial issue is that some people confuse woofers with sub woofers, for example if we are running a pair of 10's crossed over at 200 hz then they are not sub woofers. They are simply performing the role that integrated woofers would in a decent stereo speaker pair. Bass is directional at around 80 Hz and above, so having an appropriately placed pair of woofers to supplement the L and R is both logical and justified. But they aren't sub woofers and a lot of the justification that some apply to having/needing multiplies is simply a recognition that stereo woofers have and always will be a necessity for good stereo music listening. Acknowledging this rules out 90% of the justifications ie; leaving only the "some people can never have enough" reason. Happy New Year Gary My previous HT was a 26x21x10 concrete bunker with wrap around 4' high DIY absorbers, except the front wall where I had my 180" diagonal screen (had a monster Sim2 C3X projector)... now that was an overkill. Anyway, I used 4 subwoofers; two Klipsch KW-120-THX subs were used in stereo mode to complement B&W 802 LR and Klipsch center/surrounds. The other two were a pair of Seaton original Submersives dedicated to LFE. The whole setup was choriographed by the extremely versatile Tact TCSII. I had all the bass I needed in that 5,500 cu.ft. HT. Would a single sub have been enough? Well... maybe a tower of floor to ceiling 15-18" woofers. My new HT (7,000 miles removed, and the old setup is too expensive to ship over) is an open floor finished basement that is roughly 7,400 cu.ft. I'm concerned that the orderd pair of Seaton Master/Slave Submersives (4x 15" woofers driven by 4,000 Watts, total) will not be enough. If I'm lucky, I'll find a decent location (near the LP) with a smooth enough resposne that would allow stacking the Submersives vertically. This way, if I felt the urge for more bass, I'll simply ship over my old Submersive pair, upgrade their power supply and add them to the stack with zero phase issues. Gary, if you consider an 8.5-foot Submersives tower as a single subwoofer, then we're in total agreement.  |
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Post by Gary Cook on Jan 1, 2015 16:53:53 GMT -5
Hardly the first time I've had this discussion. The initial issue is that some people confuse woofers with sub woofers, for example if we are running a pair of 10's crossed over at 200 hz then they are not sub woofers. They are simply performing the role that integrated woofers would in a decent stereo speaker pair. Bass is directional at around 80 Hz and above, so having an appropriately placed pair of woofers to supplement the L and R is both logical and justified. But they aren't sub woofers and a lot of the justification that some apply to having/needing multiplies is simply a recognition that stereo woofers have and always will be a necessity for good stereo music listening. Acknowledging this rules out 90% of the justifications ie; leaving only the "some people can never have enough" reason. My previous HT was a 26x21x10 concrete bunker with wrap around 4' high DIY absorbers, except the front wall where I had my 180" diagonal screen (had a monster Sim2 C3X projector)... now that was an overkill. Anyway, I used 4 subwoofers; two Klipsch KW-120-THX subs were used in stereo mode to complement B&W 802 LR and Klipsch center/surrounds. The other two were a pair of Seaton original Submersives dedicated to LFE. The whole setup was choriographed by the extremely versatile Tact TCSII. I had all the bass I needed in that 5,500 cu.ft. HT. Would a single sub have been enough? Well... maybe a tower of floor to ceiling 15-18" woofers. My new HT (7,000 miles removed, and the old setup is too expensive to ship over) is an open floor finished basement that is roughly 7,400 cu.ft. I'm concerned that the orderd pair of Seaton Master/Slave Submersives (4x 15" woofers driven by 4,000 Watts, total) will not be enough. If I'm lucky, I'll find a decent location (near the LP) with a smooth enough resposne that would allow stacking the Submersives vertically. This way, if I felt the urge for more bass, I'll simply ship over my old Submersive pair, upgrade their power supply and add them to the stack with zero phase issues. Gary, if you consider an 8.5-foot Submersives tower as a single subwoofer, then we're in total agreement. I believe we are in complete agreement, multiple drivers is not the same as multiple sub woofers. In addition supplementing the 8" drivers in the 802's each with their own dedicated woofer is also logical. Happy New year Gary |
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Post by htguy on Jan 1, 2015 23:55:22 GMT -5
If I am using my second sub out for my Crowson shaker/transducer and do not need DIRAC to do anything with it, what is the procedure?
DIRAC page 6 of the manual says:
If you set speaker to NONE but then turn it on again then a "stale" filter is assigned to that speaker which will produce unpredictable results.
This kind of implies that a stale filter may have some kind of EQ assigned to it. Not sure why DIRAC wouldn't just assign "NO filters" to that speaker that you originally put as NONE (before running DIRAC) and then on again (after DIRAC is uploaded to your XMC-1).
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Post by ansat on Jan 2, 2015 0:03:07 GMT -5
If I am using my second sub out for my Crowson shaker/transducer and do not need DIRAC to do anything with it, what is the procedure? DIRAC page 6 of the manual says: If you set speaker to NONE but then turn it on again then a "stale" filter is assigned to that speaker which will produce unpredictable results. This kind of implies that a stale filter may have some kind of EQ assigned to it. Not sure why DIRAC wouldn't just assign "NO filters" to that speaker that you originally put as NONE (before running DIRAC) and then on again (after DIRAC is uploaded to your XMC-1). Set your subs to mono in the Dirac preset and split the signal to the transducer. You want your subs to be in sync with the vibrations from the transducer. Tony |
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Post by htguy on Jan 2, 2015 0:37:15 GMT -5
If I am using my second sub out for my Crowson shaker/transducer and do not need DIRAC to do anything with it, what is the procedure? DIRAC page 6 of the manual says: If you set speaker to NONE but then turn it on again then a "stale" filter is assigned to that speaker which will produce unpredictable results. This kind of implies that a stale filter may have some kind of EQ assigned to it. Not sure why DIRAC wouldn't just assign "NO filters" to that speaker that you originally put as NONE (before running DIRAC) and then on again (after DIRAC is uploaded to your XMC-1). Set your subs to mono in the Dirac preset and split the signal to the transducer. You want your subs to be in sync with the vibrations from the transducer. Tony Hi Tony,
Ok. I think I understand what you are saying from an "in sync" or "timing" perspective. However if my sub has a large hump at say 30 hz then my tranducer will be hit with this too causing it to receive less energy then it should. Anyway to avoid this?
Also just to confirm I currently only have one subwoofer.
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Post by ansat on Jan 2, 2015 0:48:04 GMT -5
Set your subs to mono in the Dirac preset and split the signal to the transducer. You want your subs to be in sync with the vibrations from the transducer. Tony Hi Tony,
Ok. I think I understand what you are saying from an "in sync" or "timing" perspective. However if my sub has a large hump at say 30 hz then my tranducer will be hit with this too causing it to receive less energy then it should. Anyway to avoid this?
Also just to confirm I currently only have one subwoofer.
You could try running dirac as mono then doing the dual mono. I believe that all 8 filters will still run normally. But I suspect that your gain on the transducer will run 6 to 10 db hot and your rumble will start early. Give it a shot, both tests will require you to run Dirac as mono. Just make sure you save the measurement in case you need to reload it. Tony |
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KeithL
Administrator 
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Post by KeithL on Jan 2, 2015 10:07:27 GMT -5
When you set your XMC-1 to MONO SUB, it expects a single sub connected to the LEFT SUB output, and Dirac WILL NOT calibrate the sub connected to the RIGHT SUB output. If you then select DUAL MONO later, but don't re-run Dirac, Dirac will use a stale filter for that RIGHT SUB. You'll be able to tell if you listen carefully since Dirac will always do (#speakers + 1) tones when it does its sweeps (it does every speaker, starting with front left, then repeats the first one again after completing the rest). In general, if Dirac has NEVER been run for a given channel, the "stale filter" it will use will PROBABLY simply be flat; but, if you've EVER run a filter for that channel before, it will remain until it is replaced by a new one (it will stay in storage, even through a Factory Default, since Dirac filters are stored in a separate place from anything else). It couldn't hurt to try what was suggested, but you may get different results on different runs, different folks may get wildly different results depending on previous runs and configurations, and there's no way to explicitly "wipe" filters (other than replacing them) once they exist. Hi Tony,
Ok. I think I understand what you are saying from an "in sync" or "timing" perspective. However if my sub has a large hump at say 30 hz then my tranducer will be hit with this too causing it to receive less energy then it should. Anyway to avoid this?
Also just to confirm I currently only have one subwoofer.
You could try running dirac as mono then doing the dual mono. I believe that all 8 filters will still run normally. But I suspect that your gain on the transducer will run 6 to 10 db hot and your rumble will start early. Give it a shot, both tests will require you to run Dirac as mono. Just make sure you save the measurement in case you need to reload it. Tony |
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Post by Mike Ronesia on Jan 2, 2015 15:09:27 GMT -5
Good info, thanks.
Cheers
Mark
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Post by htguy on Jan 2, 2015 21:09:56 GMT -5
When you set your XMC-1 to MONO SUB, it expects a single sub connected to the LEFT SUB output, and Dirac WILL NOT calibrate the sub connected to the RIGHT SUB output. If you then select DUAL MONO later, but don't re-run Dirac, Dirac will use a stale filter for that RIGHT SUB. You'll be able to tell if you listen carefully since Dirac will always do (#speakers + 1) tones when it does its sweeps (it does every speaker, starting with front left, then repeats the first one again after completing the rest). In general, if Dirac has NEVER been run for a given channel, the "stale filter" it will use will PROBABLY simply be flat; but, if you've EVER run a filter for that channel before, it will remain until it is replaced by a new one (it will stay in storage, even through a Factory Default, since Dirac filters are stored in a separate place from anything else). It couldn't hurt to try what was suggested, but you may get different results on different runs, different folks may get wildly different results depending on previous runs and configurations, and there's no way to explicitly "wipe" filters (other than replacing them) once they exist. You could try running dirac as mono then doing the dual mono. I believe that all 8 filters will still run normally. But I suspect that your gain on the transducer will run 6 to 10 db hot and your rumble will start early. Give it a shot, both tests will require you to run Dirac as mono. Just make sure you save the measurement in case you need to reload it. Tony Hi Keith,
Thanks for making that clear. Perhaps in a future software upgrade you guys can add a reset to DIRAC preset so as to leave no filters. Mainly to facilitate transducer use since one would not want any EQ on that channel.
Secondary to above is also ability to add time delay (ie via distance??) to the transducer would be good too (so that one can match the timing of the transducer to the timing of the signal being sent to the sub).
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Post by romotiva on Apr 22, 2017 4:55:57 GMT -5
Hi there, are there plans for an upgrade of Dirac Live for Emotiva (v. 1.2 ?) ?
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