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Post by MusicHead on Jan 3, 2015 8:46:46 GMT -5
Looking at the 791 manual, the 90W rating applies to two channels driven: Front L+R, Surround L+R or Surround Back L+R. The Center is rated 90W on its own. The 8100 can deliver 110W on the Front L+R and 7x65W or 5x80W all channels driven on 8 Ohms. If the 791 is like most of the similarly specified receiver, it can deliver around 50W all channel driven.
I think it is fair to say that whatever speakers you have been driving with the 791, the 8100 will drive them better and louder.
My speakers are 6 Ohms, full range and not very efficient,around 85dB 1W/1m, and in my 17x13 room it gets uncomfortably loud if I turn the volume higher than 60 or 65 out of a max of 80.
As for the balanced sub out, I do not have a sub thus I did not pay much attention, bit I am pretty sure the 8100 came with an adapter.
By the way speaking of power, the 8100 comes with the biggest power cord I have ever seen in a AV product...
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Post by Axis on Jan 3, 2015 8:52:43 GMT -5
Looking at the 791 manual, the 90W rating applies to two channels driven: Front L+R, Surround L+R or Surround Back L+R. The Center is rated 90W on its own. The 8100 can deliver 110W on the Front L+R and 7x65W or 5x80W all channels driven on 8 Ohms. If the 791 is like most of the similarly specified receiver, it can deliver around 50W all channel driven. I think it is fair to say that whatever speakers you have been driving with the 791, the 8100 will drive them better and louder. My speakers are 6 Ohms, full range and not very efficient,around 85dB 1W/1m, and in my 17x13 room it gets uncomfortably loud if I turn the volume higher than 60 or 65 out of a max of 80. As for the balanced sub out, I do not have a sub thus I did not pay much attention, bit I am pretty sure the 8100 came with an adapter. By the way speaking of power, the 8100 comes with the biggest power cord I have ever seen in a AV product... My Fusion 8100 did not come with an RCA adapter for the Sub out. I think it did when it first came out but like the DC-1 with the included USB cord when they put the lower prices on them they dropped the perks. Can't blame them. They have to make a buck to stay a healthy business and adapter and cords have always been one of those things you had to get for yourself as long as I can remember. |
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Post by MusicHead on Jan 3, 2015 9:45:31 GMT -5
Axis,
Interesting, I am not home right now, I will check once I go back if mine came with the adapter. It is odd though that the 8100 came with a European power cord, in addition to the one for North America. Considering how big the wire gauge is, I'd think Emotiva saved more shipping one power cord and the sub output adapter rather than two heavy gauge power cords and no sub adapter.
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Post by Axis on Jan 3, 2015 9:58:02 GMT -5
Axis, Interesting, I am not home right now, I will check once I go back if mine came with the adapter. It is odd though that the 8100 came with a European power cord, in addition to the one for North America. Considering how big the wire gauge is, I'd think Emotiva saved more shipping one power cord and the sub output adapter rather than two heavy gauge power cords and no sub adapter. The logic of someone running a business for profit is different than someone that is a consumer. If Emotiva makes to many bad decisions they go out of business. An old saying is "You pays your money and you takes your chances". |
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Post by pallpoul on Jan 3, 2015 9:59:30 GMT -5
All this talk about the fusion is making me want to get off my butt and set up my brand new Fusion 8100, which has been sitting in the closet for 3 weeks now  |
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Post by B-613 Command on Jan 3, 2015 10:46:22 GMT -5
I strongly suspect the Fusion will produce more power than your old Denon based on the numbers you've shared. Let's just say: it will not be a step down in power.
It's a bad idea to connect an unbalanced sub input into a balanced pre-out. The impedance on those 2 are far apart. I doubt there is a connector to achieve what you described and even if some factory on an uncharted island decided to sell one I wouldn't go that route. BUT - you do not have to solve that problem - there are both unbalanced and balanced outputs for the sub on the Fusion 8100. You can see it in the second picture from the left. The unbalanced output is on the far right of the 8 pre-outs on the left.
Regarding your speakers: i'm not familiar with Phase Tech but looking at their specs - i'm assuming from the model numbers you provided you are referring to the Premiere Collection - the 1.5 is a small stand-mount - you're moving those out - what do you have for a center? Do you already have a 3.5 as a center? A trio of 3.5 would work rather well if you already have one as a center or are looking to add a center. I'm a big fan of the LCR concept for HT and the Fusion should drive these speakers without problems.
The 9.5 is a speaker to think about: from what they're showing on their website this tower is very much like the towers i'm using now: the Sonus faber Venere 3.0 - in that it has multiple woofers that roll-off at lower frequencies. It's a 3.5-way design. What that means is that the top woofer plays all frequencies below 700Hz - it matches the midrange at 700Hz - the top woofer along with the mid and tweeter form a full-range 3-way speaker system. The bottom 2 woofers play from 100Hz down - that's it. All they do is act like a built-in sub. What's important to think about with this tower is 2 things: since the bottom 2 woofers only play from 100Hz down that means if you activate bass management on your typical AVR - especially using the standard recommendation of 80Hz - you'll essentially kill your bottom 2 woofers - they're not going to produce much if you only feed them signals from 80Hz to 100Hz. They'll become decorations - like Def Tech. The only way you'll be able to use any kind of bass management is with an AVR like the Fusion that allows you to select a 24dB/octave cutoff and be selective of the cutoff frequencies. You'd need to use something like 50Hz or 40Hz and 24dB as a cutoff. Anything higher than that and your bottom woofers turn into decorations. I have this problem with my Venere 3.0 and my bottom woofer rolls off a 180Hz. If I select 80Hz as the cutoff on the Marantz 5900 i'm evaluating now it takes too much out of my woofers - I think it's 12dB but not totally sure. I can use a 60Hz cutoff and the bass is ok. I'm really picky and I love strong mid-bass. So I essentially turn off bass management - no sub - for music and turn it back on at 60Hz with a sub for HT. Those 9.5 towers would probably not need a sub for music. I wouldn't need one. But that depends a lot on what kind of music you're listening to and how you expect it to sound. But to actually answer your question - those 9.5 towers likely have a steep drop in impedance at 100Hz. That does make them challenging to drive - especially for a cheap AVR. I would avoid Denon, Sony, pioneer, onkyo, yamaha and probably even marantz based on my personal experience. something more like nad, cambridge audio, anthem. Would the Fusion drive them? I cannot answer that. I'm going to try the Fusion 8100 with my Venere 3.0 and see how it does. If you do decide to go that route i'd be interested in how it works out. All I can say is that I believe it would do fine but I cannot say that with certainty nor from experience.
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Post by MusicHead on Jan 3, 2015 12:17:28 GMT -5
Axis, Interesting, I am not home right now, I will check once I go back if mine came with the adapter. It is odd though that the 8100 came with a European power cord, in addition to the one for North America. Considering how big the wire gauge is, I'd think Emotiva saved more shipping one power cord and the sub output adapter rather than two heavy gauge power cords and no sub adapter. Got home and checked the bag of goodies that came with the 8100: no Balanced to RCA adapter... Sorry, I must have read about it and THOUGHT I saw it, On the other hand, Emotiva included not one, but two cable for the trigger outputs, both with mono 3.5mm plugs at both ends, a bunch of fuses, the microphone to run the ARC and two power cords, as I had already mentioned. However, as B-613 pointed out, there is an unbalanced sub output, part of the full pre-out complement of the 8100 (DUH!). As you can see I have really NOT paid attention to the sub hook up  . pallpoul, you should definitely set-up your Fusion. Do not know what you currently have, but the 8100 is certainly worth listening to. frisco, one thing to keep in mind going from a more mainstream receiver to the 8100: do not expect all the bells & whistles you probably had on the Denon. The 8100 has everything that really counts to set-up a really good music and movie system, but it is not loaded with much of the stuff you would find in other AVRs these days. For example, it does not have any analog video inputs and it does not do any upconversion of digital video. No wi-fi, no Ethernet, no streaming "apps" of any sort and "only" four HDMI 1.4 inputs. All of this suits me just fine, it means Emotiva spent the money on the other aspects I consider more important (like a good power supply...) but your mileage may vary. I suggest you download the manual and get familiar with the 8100 features. |
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Post by Dark Ranger on Jan 3, 2015 15:43:30 GMT -5
I'm close to replacing my old Denon 791 in my ht with a fusion 8100, but had some questions. First the Denon has 90w rating. 8 ohms, but from what I read here, that rating isnt really comparable to the 8100s rating of 65 at eight ohms and 80+ at four ohms with all 7 channels driven. Correct? Will the 8100 be more than a side ways move in power, besides giving me comfort about handling 4 ohm loads? According to the documentation for your Denon, it's rated similarly to other typical receivers: two channels driven. Denon does indicate that each channel can deliver 90 watts into 8 ohms (full 20-20K bandwidth at 0.08% THD), but this just means that each amplifier channel is discrete and identical (which is a good thing). These figures can be misunderstood as 90 watts into all channels driven (ACD) which is definitely not the case. I can't find test reports for this receiver, but knowing how typical receivers end up performing with an ACD test, I'd be surprised if the AVR-791 could do more than 40 wpc all channels driven. The good news is that the ACD test is NOT typical of loads presented by music and movies. Most AVRs have more than enough power for reasonable listening levels. Adding a subwoofer helps even further by freeing up the higher power demands needed to reproduce bass. That being said, the Fusion 8100 is indeed more powerful than your Denon, but it's not just about power specs, it's about how that power is being delivered. With the Fusion 8100, you're getting a real amplifier that sounds (to my ears) every bit as good as a full-blown Emotiva UPA-series amp. In fact, it's basically a tweaked UPA-700 with less power handling. I have never owned a receiver with this much grunt regardless of what the marketing specs indicate. In looking at the specs, I couldn't locate an unbalanced sw out. Did I miss that, and if there is only an balanced output is there some sort of connection cord that I can use with my old sw, which appears to be unbalanced. I can assure you there is an unbalanced RCA subwoofer output. That's how my Rythmik sub is hooked up right now. If you check out the HUGE image of the 8100's rear panel (click the image to zoom in), the unbalanced RCA subwoofer preout is located just above the positive terminal of the Front Left speaker output. The balanced XLR subwoofer output is available for compatibility with some subwoofer systems and for those who prefer balanced runs (among other things). Last question is for anyone familiar with phase tech. I'm also looking to move my Phase Tech 1.5s to my office and will need to replace them as LR for the ht system. What would be a good phase tech speaker to match the 8100, another pair of 1.5s, or can the 8100, without adding external amps, do justice to a 3.5 or the 9.5 tower. I more interested in audio quality than ht by the way, but am space constrained with respect to external amps. is our resident Phase Tech enthusiast, so I've paged him to the white courtesy phone. He may have a recommendation for you. |
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stiehl11
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Post by stiehl11 on Jan 3, 2015 17:21:55 GMT -5
Last question is for anyone familiar with phase tech. I'm also looking to move my Phase Tech 1.5s to my office and will need to replace them as LR for the ht system. What would be a good phase tech speaker to match the 8100, another pair of 1.5s, or can the 8100, without adding external amps, do justice to a 3.5 or the 9.5 tower. I more interested in audio quality than ht by the way, but am space constrained with respect to external amps. thanks, This is a very informative forum. Thanks for the heads up on this Dark Ranger... frisco, I've been a Phase Tech guy for 14 years now and nothing sounds like them for the cost. I don't know why more people don't have the Premiere Class speakers in their setups, especially those that like to listen to music. I started with a set of PC-3 speakers and a Sony STR-V444ES AVR that was 120 watts L/R @ 8 ohms. The sound was very good, but adding the XPA-5 (and later the XPA-2) made the PC-3 sound phenomenal. Switching to the PC-9 series with the XPA-2 and I no longer run a sub when I listen to music. That being said; the PC series craves power! While I'm not sure about the PC-3 or the PC-1, the PC-9 (currently PC-9.5) dips down to around 2 ohms with frequencies below 80 hz. At that low of resistance the PC-9 sucks a lot of juice out of an amplifier very quickly. I know that the more power that I gave the PC-3 the better they sounded. I use the PC-1 in my bedroom where I don't play music that loud (hard to fall asleep with loud music). While I have gassed out the UPA-2 amp that they're connected to on a few occasions, they sound better when hooked up to an amp with ample power reserves like my XPA-2. So, what will be a good Phase Tech speaker to match with the 8100? That's a hard question to answer because the 8100 is much lower in rated power than my old Sony (120 watts all channels driven @ 8 ohm versus 65 watts all channels driven @ 8 ohm). I guess the first question for me would be, are you happy with the performance of your PC-1.5 speakers? If they're giving you what you want I would stick with them for the 8100. The PC-1 series is good enough to run a full HT system with a quality sub picking up the heavy lifting. If you'd like to try the PC-3 or PC-9 with the 8100 you can but understand that they will likely gas out the 8100 at very moderate levels unless you cross them off above 80 hz and using a sub to do the lifting below 80 hz. At that point you're losing all of what your gaining by going to the larger speaker. Will there be an improvement in sound quality going up in speaker? Maybe. But, going from 120 watts in the Sony to the 200 watts of the XPA-5 to the 300 watts of the XPA-2 made huge differences in the sound quality of my PC-3 speakers. If you can audition a set of PC-3 or PC-9 speakers once you get the fusion to see if they're right for you that would be your best bet. If not, I wouldn't go higher than the PC-3. |
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LCSeminole
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Post by LCSeminole on Jan 3, 2015 17:32:23 GMT -5
There is both an unbalanced RCA subwoofer output and a balanced XLR output, and while I'm not positive, I bet both are active as well just like every other Emotiva processor/receiver product that I've used.
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Post by pallpoul on Jan 3, 2015 18:20:34 GMT -5
I had the Sherbourn fusion and used the XLR to Analog Sub out converter that was provided with it, and it works fine. I don't understand why is this an issue.
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Post by Dark Ranger on Jan 3, 2015 21:50:28 GMT -5
There is both an unbalanced RCA subwoofer output and a balanced XLR output, and while I'm not positive, I bet both are active as well just like every other Emotiva processor/receiver product that I've used. I'll be able to test this within the next week or two. |
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cpny
Seeker Of Truth
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Post by cpny on Jan 4, 2015 10:06:29 GMT -5
I suspect that the lifecycle for the 8100 has ended. Mere suspicion here for several reasons.
1. There has been no "official" answer from anyone at Emotiva on this thread.
2. The "link" to reserve a unit is D.O.A.
3. It sure could use upgrades in certain areas!
4. Timing couldn't be better for release of a new A/V receiver from Emotiva as CES starts tomorrow!!!!
I hope I am right about this.
My experience with the unit has been mixed. It sounds wonderful and feature operability is good! Beyond my expectations to say the least. However a conversation with Chad from tech support concluded with me facing the realization that I would have to return the unit. Sounds dramatic! It just doesn't have enough power to drive my B&W 600 Series HT system. My bad on that! So hence the hope that a new unit is going to be released this week with a little more juice. If not...there may be a XPA-5 along with a XMC-1 may in my future. Costly though. :-(
I really do not want to go the route of A/V receiver from Yamaha or Denon although the Denon AVR-X5200W with mono blocks is enticing!
Thoughts?
How about a heads-up from someone from Emotiva on this thread to keep us in the loop, and in the family?
We shall see!
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Post by brubacca on Jan 4, 2015 10:17:32 GMT -5
I don't believe that Emotiva is at CES. Why not use the fusion as a pre-amp to the XPA-5 amp?
It would seem to be a less costly solution than the xmc-1, as long as it meets your needs.
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Post by mrrame on Jan 4, 2015 10:58:32 GMT -5
Emotiva better stick to amps, every other product (speakers, sub-woofers,receivers,pre-amps) was either a failure or a bad-design. How else you would explain such a short shelf life for each product ?
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cpny
Seeker Of Truth
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Post by cpny on Jan 4, 2015 13:16:47 GMT -5
Hmmm!
Didn't really think of that as an option.
Thank you for getting my wheels turning!
I'm kind of of the school of dedicated usage...if there is such a thing. Plus the thought of having balanced inputs on my amp and not using them would cause me to lose sleep at night. Not really happy with the Fusion's Audio cutting out every so often while watching TV. Probably a mismatch with CEC/ARC/HDCP handshaking etc. with my Tivo Roamio. I worry that Emotiva moving forward will not focus too much on improving firmware of the 8100 as it is dated by industry specs.
I would like to be able to read more info on that provided by Emotiva but the documentation doesn't seem to be provided. And on the subject of tech support...I like the idea speaking to someone in tech support who I can understand... but waiting for a phone call back in an hour or two doesn't usually work for me. I just want to say that I am a believer and supporter of small American upstart companies!!! Moving forward and staying on topic I would imagine that the xmc-1 with it's modular design is a unit that in the long run I would feel that I never settled for. Just tired of all the redefined interfaces that I have had to deal with over the years! Am I right in assuming that when updated HDMI 2.0 components become available I will be able to just upgrade a module in the xmc-1? I seem to remember seeing a video somewhere that led me to believe such. Can anyone advise on this?
I wish they had a program where I could drive down to TN and assemble my own xmc-1, grab a xpa-5, some ribs, and head back home!
Happy and Healthy New Year to all on the forum. Sorry for the rantish writing!
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cawgijoe
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Post by cawgijoe on Jan 4, 2015 13:28:11 GMT -5
Didn't someone call earlier in this thread and Emo said they would be available again around the 8th of January?
That was Shiftred. See page one.
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Post by broncsrule21 on Jan 4, 2015 13:41:39 GMT -5
Hmmm! Didn't really think of that as an option. Thank you for getting my wheels turning! I'm kind of of the school of dedicated usage...if there is such a thing. Plus the thought of having balanced inputs on my amp and not using them would cause me to lose sleep at night. Not really happy with the Fusion's Audio cutting out every so often while watching TV. Probably a mismatch with CEC/ARC/HDCP handshaking etc. with my Tivo Roamio. I worry that Emotiva moving forward will not focus too much on improving firmware of the 8100 as it is dated by industry specs. I would like to be able to read more info on that provided by Emotiva but the documentation doesn't seem to be provided. And on the subject of tech support...I like the idea speaking to someone in tech support who I can understand... but waiting for a phone call back in an hour or two doesn't usually work for me. I just want to say that I am a believer and supporter of small American upstart companies!!! Moving forward and staying on topic I would imagine that the xmc-1 with it's modular design is a unit that in the long run I would feel that I never settled for. Just tired of all the redefined interfaces that I have had to deal with over the years! Am I right in assuming that when updated HDMI 2.0 components become available I will be able to just upgrade a module in the xmc-1? I seem to remember seeing a video somewhere that led me to believe such. Can anyone advise on this? I wish they had a program where I could drive down to TN and assemble my own xmc-1, grab a xpa-5, some ribs, and head back home! Happy and Healthy New Year to all on the forum. Sorry for the rantish writing! you have lots of options! I don't know the specs of your B&W but you could use a XPA-2 or 3 for your front stage. Let the Fusion take care of the surrounds. I use a RPA-1 for my front speakers, the Fusion has plenty of juice for the other 3. I am not having dropouts but you know how it goes with all the HDMI stuff... |
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cpny
Seeker Of Truth
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Post by cpny on Jan 4, 2015 13:53:48 GMT -5
A victim of "The Paradox of Choice".
L/R B&W's are 8ohms@ 25-100W in unclipped program
C B&W is 8ohm @ 25-120W in unclipped program
Rear KEF's 8ohms @ 25-100W
The problem I was having with the 8100 is that the unit would turnoff during action scenes. That prompted my chat with Chad at Emotiva and he advised that I was under powering the speakers!
Thanks for the ideas. More options. Oy vey!
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Post by broncsrule21 on Jan 4, 2015 13:55:19 GMT -5
Emotiva better stick to amps, every other product (speakers, sub-woofers,receivers,pre-amps) was either a failure or a bad-design. How else you would explain such a short shelf life for each product ? blah, blah, blah. |
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