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Post by broncsrule21 on Jan 4, 2015 13:59:21 GMT -5
A victim of "The Paradox of Choice". L/R B&W's are 8ohms@ 25-100W in unclipped program C B&W is 8ohm @ 25-120W in unclipped program Rear KEF's 8ohms @ 25-100W The problem I was having with the 8100 is that the unit would turnoff during action scenes. That prompted my chat with Chad at Emotiva and he advised that I was under powering the speakers! Thanks for the ideas. More options. Oy vey! That sounds like an individual unit. Unless your room is huge, the Fusion should be able to power those speakers with out issue. |
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Post by Dark Ranger on Jan 4, 2015 14:08:27 GMT -5
If the Fusion 8100 does not provide enough power for one's liking, definitely consider using the preout option and connecting an external amplifier. I fully concur with brubacca's recommendation here. As an aside, I challenge someone to find an AVR with full 7.1 preouts in this price range. Sure, the Fusion 8100 doesn't have AirPlay, Spotify/Pandora, MP3 Restorer, and network connectivity. What it does have, in my opinion, is a feature set focused on the essentials for reproducing "separates-level" sound quality. I picked one up last year replacing a UMC-1 for a slight upgrade in certain areas and to consolidate my system a bit. No regrets, it's a great piece of kit. The Fusion connects to my trio of XPA-1L (Gen 1) amplifiers for LCR via the rear panel preouts, while using the built-in AVR amps to power the four surrounds. The preouts can be managed just like a typical Emotiva surround processor. cpny, my recommendation is to pick up something like an XPA-3 to power the front stage if you need more grunt for your B&W 600 Series. Use the Fusion's internal amps to power the surrounds (more than enough). If you want the features and compatibility provided by the Big Boys (Denon, Marantz, etc.), pick up a mainstream AVR with enough preouts for your needs. Add an external amp of your choice for the mains or LCR. |
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Post by MusicHead on Jan 4, 2015 14:14:20 GMT -5
Post by broncsrule21 on 15 minutes ago
cpny Avatar
20 minutes ago cpny said:
A victim of "The Paradox of Choice".
L/R B&W's are 8ohms@ 25-100W in unclipped program
C B&W is 8ohm @ 25-120W in unclipped program
Rear KEF's 8ohms @ 25-100W
The problem I was having with the 8100 is that the unit would turnoff during action scenes. That prompted my chat with Chad at Emotiva and he advised that I was under powering the speakers!
Thanks for the ideas. More options. Oy vey!
That sounds like an individual unit. Unless your room is huge, the Fusion should be able to power those speakers with out issue.
Yeah, that is strange. My front L/R speakers have 6 Ohm impedance and lowish efficiency, around 85dB 1W/1m. Plus, my Surround L/R are full range, therefore, even if they have 8 Ohm impedance, the amp still has to drive them over the full range. In the three weeks I have had the 8100 I have "tested" it with several Dolby Digital and DTS movies and at my listening distance of ~10ft in a 17x13 room I get 95dB peaks with the volume at 65 out of 80. My personal perception of that is plenty loud, I doubt it would feel comfortable watching a movie or listening to music at that level for a long period of time. I am using a Sound Meter app on my phone, so calibration is probably a little off. However, for comparison in relative terms, when I am sitting on my John Deer riding lawnmower with the engine at full throttle the reading is 90dB...
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Post by Dark Ranger on Jan 4, 2015 14:17:14 GMT -5
A victim of "The Paradox of Choice". L/R B&W's are 8ohms@ 25-100W in unclipped program C B&W is 8ohm @ 25-120W in unclipped program Rear KEF's 8ohms @ 25-100W The problem I was having with the 8100 is that the unit would turnoff during action scenes. That prompted my chat with Chad at Emotiva and he advised that I was under powering the speakers! Thanks for the ideas. More options. Oy vey! The Fusion will handle those speakers with no problem based purely on the power handling figures. I'd be more interested in seeing the impedance bode and electrical phase plot. This would give more insight into how the amplifier sees the load at different frequencies. Out of curiosity, how large is your room and what are your typical listening levels? Also, did you notice if the fans inside the Fusion were spinning at high RPM when the AVR turned off? Was the power LED flashing RED after the unit turned off? Was the top chassis cover warmer than usual? |
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Post by Cogito on Jan 4, 2015 14:26:23 GMT -5
Emotiva better stick to amps, every other product (speakers, sub-woofers,receivers,pre-amps) was either a failure or a bad-design. How else you would explain such a short shelf life for each product ? I can't speak for their speakers, subs or receivers, but I certainly love my incredibly well built and engineered Emotiva preamp, especially considering what I paid for it! Okay, so it's a little "blingy" looking for my taste. |
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Post by MusicHead on Jan 4, 2015 14:48:13 GMT -5
I suspect that the lifecycle for the 8100 has ended. Mere suspicion here for several reasons. 1. There has been no "official" answer from anyone at Emotiva on this thread. 2. The "link" to reserve a unit is D.O.A. 3. It sure could use upgrades in certain areas! 4. Timing couldn't be better for release of a new A/V receiver from Emotiva as CES starts tomorrow!!!! I hope I am right about this. My experience with the unit has been mixed. It sounds wonderful and feature operability is good! Beyond my expectations to say the least. However a conversation with Chad from tech support concluded with me facing the realization that I would have to return the unit. Sounds dramatic! It just doesn't have enough power to drive my B&W 600 Series HT system. My bad on that! So hence the hope that a new unit is going to be released this week with a little more juice. If not...there may be a XPA-5 along with a XMC-1 may in my future. Costly though. :-( I really do not want to go the route of A/V receiver from Yamaha or Denon although the Denon AVR-X5200W with mono blocks is enticing! Thoughts? How about a heads-up from someone from Emotiva on this thread to keep us in the loop, and in the family? We shall see! I called Emotiva tech support last week to check on an issue I am having with Zone 2 in my 8100. Chad told me that if I decide to return it to Amazon, I can then order another one directly from them, as they are getting more. Also, as somebody else pointed out, another forum member had called too and was told that more 8100s are going to be available starting January 8. In reference to a possible future, more powerful receiver, I remember that back in the days when the 8100 was a model under the Sherbourn brand (Emotiva's sister company now gone), it was at first announced together with a more powerful sibling, the 8200 or 8300, which if I am not mistaken was rated well over 100W per channel (back than the Sherbourn SR-8100 was rated 7x80W, though). The more powerful model was much taller, I saw the pictures of both compared, probably around 7". This beefier model was never actually released by Sherbourn, unlike the SR-8100 which eventually mutated into the Fusion 8100. Who knows, Emotiva may decide to bring this model back, using the same power section and ideally throwing in a few upgrades, like more HDMI inputs and going to version 2.0. Finally, before I purchased the 8100 I had a very interesting email exchange with their sales. At some point I guess my questions got a tad too technical, because Lonnie Vaughn, Emotiva's VP of Product Development, started to answer my emails (nice surprise! Get that from another manufacturer...). One of my question was about using the two back surround channels to bi-amp the fronts in a 5.1 set-up, but using the cross-over in each channel pair to split the audio band upstream of the speakers, as it should happen in a true bi-amped system. It turns out this is not currently possible with the 8100 due to the present firmware, but Lonnie mentioned something along the lines of "we may take into account your idea in the next firmware release". Hence, it seems that there is still some life left into the 8100. |
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Post by MusicHead on Jan 4, 2015 14:57:09 GMT -5
If the Fusion 8100 does not provide enough power for one's liking, definitely consider using the preout option and connecting an external amplifier. I fully concur with brubacca's recommendation here. As an aside, I challenge someone to find an AVR with full 7.1 preouts in this price range. Sure, the Fusion 8100 doesn't have AirPlay, Spotify/Pandora, MP3 Restorer, and network connectivity. What it does have, in my opinion, is a feature set focused on the essentials for reproducing "separates-level" sound quality. I picked one up last year replacing a UMC-1 for a slight upgrade in certain areas and to consolidate my system a bit. No regrets, it's a great piece of kit. The Fusion connects to my trio of XPA-1L (Gen 1) amplifiers for LCR via the rear panel preouts, while using the built-in AVR amps to power the four surrounds. The preouts can be managed just like a typical Emotiva surround processor. cpny, my recommendation is to pick up something like an XPA-3 to power the front stage if you need more grunt for your B&W 600 Series. Use the Fusion's internal amps to power the surrounds (more than enough). If you want the features and compatibility provided by the Big Boys (Denon, Marantz, etc.), pick up a mainstream AVR with enough preouts for your needs. Add an external amp of your choice for the mains or LCR. Dark Ranger, I tried for months to find something remotely comparable to the Fusion and could not  . The "sound first" approach Emotiva took with the Fusion suits me just fine. I have a Roku box to play with connectivity and stream audio or video content. cpny, I had looked at Marantz (SR-5009 or SR-7007), but toying with the idea of one of the Elite SC-xx series from Pioneer too. Be aware that they have Class-D power stages, which might not be for everyone's ears. They have impressive power specs, even on low impedance loads and I have read pretty good reviews about their sound. As always with audio, YMMV. |
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Post by Jim on Jan 4, 2015 15:59:46 GMT -5
Emotiva better stick to amps, every other product (speakers, sub-woofers,receivers,pre-amps) was either a failure or a bad-design. How else you would explain such a short shelf life for each product ? I give you a 3/10 for that attempt. |
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Post by klinemj on Jan 4, 2015 17:09:05 GMT -5
Emotiva better stick to amps, every other product (speakers, sub-woofers,receivers,pre-amps) was either a failure or a bad-design. How else you would explain such a short shelf life for each product ? Can you please explain what you are talking about? Their preamps (USP-1, XSP-1), XDA-series DACs, DC-1 DAC, ERC-series of CD players, Stealth and Airmotiv speakers, their old speaker line of the 8.3's/6.2's/ERD Surrounds/etc, their in-wall and exterior speakers, their cirrus-based multichannel processors (UMC-1, UMC-200), and many more products have had very long lives - and many continue to be around. That said - it's quite clear Emotiva will be at some point dropping all Cirrus-based multichannel processors and the related Fusion receiver as they move away from supporting Cirrus to building off their new TI platform. But, that doesn't mean they have a short shelf life and should stick to amps...IMHO... Mark |
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Post by Dark Ranger on Jan 4, 2015 17:19:38 GMT -5
Dark Ranger, I tried for months to find something remotely comparable to the Fusion and could not . The "sound first" approach Emotiva took with the Fusion suits me just fine. I was in the same boat and felt like I would be giving up a lot of performance choosing a mainstream AVR. Luckily I remembered Emotiva released the Fusion. I'd be getting an upgrade over my UMC-1 in several areas, plus have a set of high-quality amps to consolidate my system a bit. I discovered that a UPA-700 for surrounds and Zone 3 was overkill in my room.  |
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Post by frisco on Jan 4, 2015 17:41:36 GMT -5
one thing to keep in mind going from a more mainstream receiver to the 8100: do not expect all the bells & whistles you probably had on the Denon. The 8100 has everything that really counts to set-up a really good music and movie system, but it is not loaded with much of the stuff you would find in other AVRs these days. For example, it does not have any analog video inputs and it does not do any upconversion of digital video. No wi-fi, no Ethernet, no streaming "apps" of any sort and "only" four HDMI 1.4 inputs. All of this suits me just fine, it means Emotiva spent the money on the other aspects I consider more important (like a good power supply...) but your mileage may vary. I suggest you download the manual and get familiar with the 8100 features.
musicman, thanks. On reading your comments, I think Im a pretty good candidate for a Fusion. I will have it hooked up to mac-mini for internet access, and my use of my current AVR is basically limited to a blurray and the Mac mini connection. I run an HDMI from my cable box, but 99% of the time I bypass the Denon and use a component video, RCA audio connection between the cable box/DVR and the TV. (I find surround sound distracting when I am watching TV, because I am usually multi tasking with the TV on.)
My only question is up converting video--I have an up converting bluray, wouldn't that handle the up conversion for DVDs, and I suppose if I get into streaming video I can upgrade to an OPPO.
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Post by MusicHead on Jan 4, 2015 18:11:25 GMT -5
My only question is up converting video--I have an up converting bluray, wouldn't that handle the up conversion for DVDs, and I suppose if I get into streaming video I can upgrade to an OPPO. frisco, yes, that is the set-up I have. I think all BD players on the market offer upconversion anyway, so you won't miss that. The 8100 has a pass-through function on its HDMI inputs, should you decide to connect everything to the 8100 and then use its HDMI out to your HDTV. You can even set the whole HDMI I/O chain to stay active with the 8100 in stand-by, so that it lets HDMI signal through from your sources to your HDTV even when you do not need audio from the 8100. Personally, I believe upconversion in a receiver or a pre makes sense if you have also analog video inputs that can be converted to digital, upscaled and sent to a HDMI output. That would be useful for example for those having an expensive legacy DVD or BD player with only component output. Kudos to Emotiva for having the guts to forego completely analog video inputs and upconversion. It may make your spec list shorter and give fewer selling points to the marketing folks, but it makes me more confident that the money went into what counts more for me, SOUND, as I can't currently have two separate systems for music and video. Speaking of sound, another "hidden" gem in the 8100: the "Direct" button bypasses everything but the volume control and that applies to all Analog inputs as well, which are NOT digitized as it happens in other receivers or even preamps on the marketl. If you have or will have an high quality source (your future Oppo comes to mind  that's a great option to have if you prefer to use the DAC in it for 2-channel music with minimal processing, rather than that in the 8100. Or, if nothing else, you can do a real time comparison and let your ears judge what you prefer between the two. That, combined also with a full set on 7.1 INPUTS which are all Direct too, makes the Fusion an heck of a flexible receiver for analog audio. |
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Post by frisco on Jan 4, 2015 18:11:32 GMT -5
B613 Command, Dark Ranger and Stiehl11 thanks for the helpful comments and questions.
My center is a PC 3.35. It's designed to match to PC 05s , so it's probably a good but not perfect match to the 1.5s. If I upgrade I would probably upgrade to a 3.5 as well.
I'm happy with the 1.5s. The problem is that I am not happy with an old pair of PT 3.5Ts that I use with a DC--1/xpa mini combo in my office. The 1.5s make a big improvement there and I was thinking of moving them to the office permanently. This discussion has got me thinking about other options for the office. While I'm working on that, I can see how the1.5 sound with the fusion and whether I should upgrade my center etc.
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cpny
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Post by cpny on Jan 5, 2015 0:16:49 GMT -5
A victim of "The Paradox of Choice". L/R B&W's are 8ohms@ 25-100W in unclipped program C B&W is 8ohm @ 25-120W in unclipped program Rear KEF's 8ohms @ 25-100W The problem I was having with the 8100 is that the unit would turnoff during action scenes. That prompted my chat with Chad at Emotiva and he advised that I was under powering the speakers! Thanks for the ideas. More options. Oy vey! The Fusion will handle those speakers with no problem based purely on the power handling figures. I'd be more interested in seeing the impedance bode and electrical phase plot. This would give more insight into how the amplifier sees the load at different frequencies. Out of curiosity, how large is your room and what are your typical listening levels? Also, did you notice if the fans inside the Fusion were spinning at high RPM when the AVR turned off? Was the power LED flashing RED after the unit turned off? Was the top chassis cover warmer than usual? Dark Ranger: Room size is approx. 12x19 and my listening distance is about 10 ft. from the LCR speakers. I have not metered my listening levels but they are certainly not full throttle! I'd say 75% on OSD during an action movie. The unit works fine while listening to everything else. The unit shut down twice on me. Once while watching a DVD and once while watching HBO via my Tivo unit. And that prompted the call to tech support. I have not pushed it since as I do not want to damage my B&W's. When the unit did "click" off it was NOT warmer than usual, and I did not hear any fan noise. (The unit runs surprisingly cool!) And YES, the power LED WAS FLASHING RED after the unit turned off. I mentioned it to Chad but he didn't seem concerned about it...said that 8100 most likely didn't have enough juice for the speakers. I'd hate to have to part ways with the unit as the B&W/8100 combo is music to my ears. I am curious as to what your thoughts are? As always, any feedback is appreciated. cpny. |
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Post by Dark Ranger on Jan 5, 2015 1:12:12 GMT -5
Dark Ranger: Room size is approx. 12x19 and my listening distance is about 10 ft. from the LCR speakers. I have not metered my listening levels but they are certainly not full throttle! I'd say 75% on OSD during an action movie. The unit works fine while listening to everything else. The unit shut down twice on me. Once while watching a DVD and once while watching HBO via my Tivo unit. And that prompted the call to tech support. I have not pushed it since as I do not want to damage my B&W's. When the unit did "click" off it was NOT warmer than usual, and I did not hear any fan noise. (The unit runs surprisingly cool!) And YES, the power LED WAS FLASHING RED after the unit turned off. I mentioned it to Chad but he didn't seem concerned about it...said that 8100 most likely didn't have enough juice for the speakers. I'd hate to have to part ways with the unit as the B&W/8100 combo is music to my ears. I am curious as to what your thoughts are? As always, any feedback is appreciated. cpny. Thanks for the additional info. Let me just say that I have no intention of taking the place of official tech support. However, it's just odd that this issue is occurring since the Fusion power supply and output devices are more akin to a UPA series amp than a traditional receiver. You mentioned the top chassis is NOT warmer than usual and did NOT notice any fan noise. When the Fusion is being driven hard, the chassis will be much warmer and you'll definitely hear the fans in the unit when the the music is paused. Two things I'd be interested in from you: 1) Double-check (just for kicks) all the speaker connections, at both ends, to make sure there are no stray strands. 2) What are the exact model numbers of your B&W and KEF speakers? I looked up the 600 series, but there are two of every kind--two towers, two bookshelves, two centers, etc. As I mentioned in another post, it may not be that the Fusion is underpowered per se, but that the speaker impedance drops too low or it's low enough for a large portion of the frequency range. But still, that should cause the Fusion to heat up because more current is being pulled from the power supply, and the fans would kick in. At least that's what I'd expect. The 8100 can handle 4 ohm loads much easier than many receivers in its price range. Perhaps there is just an issue with that particular unit. I set up a Denon AVR for a friend one time. It worked fine for about a week, and then it would shut off sometimes during a movie. The red light would flash as well. Everything checked out and I even reset the microprocessor. No dice. Turns out it was just a faulty unit. We got it exchanged with an identical model and the replacement has worked fine ever since. It wasn't anything to do with the speakers or the connection or being underpowered. This may not be the case for you, but it is an anecdote. |
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cpny
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Post by cpny on Jan 5, 2015 21:34:35 GMT -5
Dark Ranger: Had a busy day today...sorry for not getting back to you sooner.
L/R are: B&W Model #685
C is: B&W Model HTM62-S2
SW: B&W Model ASW61STB
SURR L/R : KEF Q Compact Series (IQ10) 2008model
Tivo Roamio Pro
Star Wars XBOX360
SONOS
AppleTV
OPPO 103BD
B&W P7
LH LABS "Geek Out" 1000
Just finished up checking all of my connections etc. Going to reset everything and watch "HEAT" should be a good test to see if it was indeed the connections, though nothing jumped out at me. If you do take a look at the specs etc. I'll take crossover settings suggestions. The auto room eq had everything set at 200Hz the first time and 185Hz the second time. A bit off. Thanks again.
1/14/15 UPDATE: double checked all of my settings/connections and made changes where necessary. 8100 exceeds expectations! Thanks all for help/input. My bad on this one!
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Post by MusicHead on Jan 5, 2015 21:50:27 GMT -5
If I may throw in my two cents, I find it unlikely that with a x-over point so high the 8100 would run out of steam due to the speakers' impedance dropping to very low levels.
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Post by B-613 Command on Jan 6, 2015 14:48:52 GMT -5
So - the Fusion 8100 is now available - and I just bought one!
Yeeha
Now that I think about it - I didn't think about it - I do not remember seeing anywhere in the order process where I have the option of joining some club that gives me 10% off. I mean - essentially the E-Club - apparently I needed to go and join the E-Club and then use that to get my 10% discount. I totally forgot about it.
We'll see where this adventure takes me. I officially gave up on my new Marantz SR5009 this morning. I listened to it for a few hours. The sound is crisp but the bass is so thin - even with a sub there's just too much missing - and the highs lack realism.
I'll be giving you my critique of the Fusion 8100 in the coming days.
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Post by jcam2881 on Jan 6, 2015 14:55:16 GMT -5
So - the Fusion 8100 is now available - and I just bought one!
Yeeha
Now that I think about it - I didn't think about it - I do not remember seeing anywhere in the order process where I have the option of joining some club that gives me 10% off. I mean - essentially the E-Club - apparently I needed to go and join the E-Club and then use that to get my 10% discount. I totally forgot about it.
We'll see where this adventure takes me. I officially gave up on my new Marantz SR5009 this morning. I listened to it for a few hours. The sound is crisp but the bass is so thin - even with a sub there's just too much missing - and the highs lack realism.
I'll be giving you my critique of the Fusion 8100 in the coming days.
agree on the marantz ..have the SR6008..not impressed. |
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Post by Axis on Jan 6, 2015 15:06:53 GMT -5
So - the Fusion 8100 is now available - and I just bought one!
Yeeha
Now that I think about it - I didn't think about it - I do not remember seeing anywhere in the order process where I have the option of joining some club that gives me 10% off. I mean - essentially the E-Club - apparently I needed to go and join the E-Club and then use that to get my 10% discount. I totally forgot about it.
We'll see where this adventure takes me. I officially gave up on my new Marantz SR5009 this morning. I listened to it for a few hours. The sound is crisp but the bass is so thin - even with a sub there's just too much missing - and the highs lack realism.
I'll be giving you my critique of the Fusion 8100 in the coming days. I got my Fusion 8100 all hooked up proper, made sure the room was quite, put the mic right where my nose would be while sitting back in my recliner and let it do it's thing. Afterwards I toggled between Flat and Auto EQ and could hear an improvement on the tone of the sound. I have not touched the Fusion 8100 since and it works like champ. Hope you have the same results I did. It is a fine little receiver. |
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. The "sound first" approach Emotiva took with the Fusion suits me just fine. I have a Roku box to play with connectivity and stream audio or video content.
that's a great option to have if you prefer to use the DAC in it for 2-channel music with minimal processing, rather than that in the 8100. Or, if nothing else, you can do a real time comparison and let your ears judge what you prefer between the two. 
