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Post by ocezam on Jan 2, 2015 16:58:33 GMT -5
Downfall? What downfall? My understanding is that Magnepan is doing VERY well. IMO Mr. Winey's stubbornness has earned him a lot of success, a plethora of accolades in the industry and a huge following. If you are missing the deep bass, adding a high quality/performance subwoofer has never been more affordable. With the right combination and setup, the results can be stunning. With that said, I think my setup would compare favorably with ANY hybrid design. Yeah, downfall was a stupid word, and Magnepan IS doing fine. How much bigger and more profitable they could be would take a crystal ball. Fair enough. And I'm happy you're content with your set up. I agree with most what you're saying, but not with your cross-over point. I've set my cross-over at 50Hz. For me the 1.7s have a good bass response, better than most cones. But maybe that's just me Maggies shouldn't be crossed over this low. Small planars aren't designed for this. Once the frequencies dip below 150Hz the distortion starts climbing. DJ Agreed. With a good sub, or two, 150hz-200hz sounds a lot better IMO. I just hope that all of you giving advice here have had and listen to these speakers in your own room. However, that potentially doesn't mean your experience listening and mine are going to be the same or the OP. I owned 1.6's for almost 3 years, and have a good friend who's owned 3.6s for at least the last 6 or 8 years. Is that good enough? I think the 3 series also benefits from a good pair of subs crossed at 150hz or so. I'll concede I've never heard a 20 series. Never really cared to.
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Post by pedrocols on Jan 2, 2015 18:10:10 GMT -5
I just want to remind you guys about the question the OP is inquiring about: "what's a good sub that matches well with Maggie 1.7's?" Obviously he seems to agreed that Magnepans need a subwoofer!
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Post by ocezam on Jan 2, 2015 18:29:21 GMT -5
I just want to remind you guys about the question the OP is inquiring about: "what's a good sub that matches well with Maggie 1.7's?" Obviously he seems to agreed that Magnepans need a subwoofer! Yep. That's why I responded with this two days ago: Too slow is a ridiculous term. I'm an old Maggie guy and that phrase always grated on me. It illustrated nothing and has no basis in fact. Get a good, accurate, non-boomy sub and you'll be fine. I prefer sealed, but there are some great ported subs out there. Most cheap ported subs are the definition of boomy. They are "one note wonders". I'd get a good sealed sub that's happy up to at least 250 hz and cross over about 150hz or above. Maggies can make bass, but cones make better bass, all the way up to mid bass IMO. Peace
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Post by Cogito on Jan 2, 2015 19:45:00 GMT -5
I agree with most what you're saying, but not with your cross-over point. I've set my cross-over at 50Hz. For me the 1.7s have a good bass response, better than most cones. But maybe that's just me Maggies shouldn't be crossed over this low. Small planars aren't designed for this. Once the frequencies dip below 150Hz the distortion starts climbing. DJ I agree for the most part. Crossing over between 70-80Hz is the best compromise between distortion and preventing localization. Again, I have found crossing over at 70Hz with my XSP-1 Gen 2's 12dB/octave crossover to be pretty much ideal. Not that I ever heard any distortion from the 1.7s in the low end anyway. Our ears are pretty forgiving with relatively high amount of THD in the lower octaves.
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Post by ocezam on Jan 3, 2015 0:09:27 GMT -5
Maggies shouldn't be crossed over this low. Small planars aren't designed for this. Once the frequencies dip below 150Hz the distortion starts climbing. DJ I agree for the most part. Crossing over between 70-80Hz is the best compromise between distortion and preventing localization. Again, I have found crossing over at 70Hz with my XSP-1 Gen 2's 12dB/octave crossover to be pretty much ideal. Not that I ever heard any distortion from the 1.7s in the low end anyway. Our ears are pretty forgiving with relatively high amount of THD in the lower octaves. I agree with most everything you've said. And the majority of Magnepan owners would also. A fairly large number would go up to 100hz crossover, but only a handful would recommend crossing higher than that. You are correct, harmonic distortion isn't very noticeable in the lower frequencies. I don't recommend higher crossover for lower distortion. I recommend that because I find the bass made by a cone much more punchy and dynamic than planer bass. You are also correct that when you get up around 150hz and above, the bass will start to get directional. That's why I'd want MUCH smaller panels directly connected to dedicated cone woofers. In addition to the better sound (to my ears) you also get the benefit of not needing huge panels in your house. If you spend much time at the Magnepan Users Group, and their related forum, the Planer Speaker Asylum, you'll find people who agree with me, but we will forever be in the minority. I have no problem with that, but I would think I should be able to speak my peace. It seems that when I suggest that Magnepans could be better, I am somehow insulting Magnepan. Nothing could be farther from the truth. Heck, I love the sound of Magnepans. I have for 40 years. I do think they could be better, at least for me and a few others. Both aesthetically and sonically. www.integracoustics.com/MUG/MUG/www.audioasylum.com/forums/MUG/bbs.htmlAs for the OP's question, I thought I put in my two cents a couple days ago. Buy a quality, NON-BOOMEY, sub. Magnepans really do not present any special problems with sub integration. But the run of the mill consumer grade sub won't integrate very well in ANY two channel music system. Most of these subs are "one note wonders" and incredibly boomy. They are cheap and are designed to attract neophyte HT people with their boominess. Most subs that come to my mind that will sound good in a two channel system, planer speaker system or not, will inherently be fairly expensive. For this reason, I'd build a couple from scratch.
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Post by flatpicker on Jan 3, 2015 7:38:00 GMT -5
This thread is much appreciated! I've surfed through reviews on all the subs mentioned so far. My comfort level has gone way up... also my budget limit has crept up from 1500 to 2000, if needed. It's also good to see the subs above this limit, as an aspirational thing. One "myth" has been dispelled, in that I thought it safer to seek out a 10" sub to preserve the musicality factor, but it seems that even a 13.5" sub like the SVS SB13 Ultra can be trusted to be "quick" enough to stay out of it's own way. My SA-250 is due to ship in 4 days, and reports are that it has bass benefits over the XPA-2 which I'm currently using with the 1.7's, so looks like some fun listening ahead, after the new sub arrives... which ever one does emerge. Thanks for the recs!
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Post by willcycle on Jan 3, 2015 7:44:49 GMT -5
I would highly recommend the now discontinued Martin Logan Depth i sub which can be purchased online from several vendors at a big discount. I am using a pair with my Apogee ribbons and the integration is phenomenal - not to mention the aesthetics (it's not just a big box).
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Post by jcam2881 on Jan 3, 2015 9:41:54 GMT -5
This thread is much appreciated! I've surfed through reviews on all the subs mentioned so far. My comfort level has gone way up... also my budget limit has crept up from 1500 to 2000, if needed. It's also good to see the subs above this limit, as an aspirational thing. One "myth" has been dispelled, in that I thought it safer to seek out a 10" sub to preserve the musicality factor, but it seems that even a 13.5" sub like the SVS SB13 Ultra can be trusted to be "quick" enough to stay out of it's own way. My SA-250 is due to ship in 4 days, and reports are that it has bass benefits over the XPA-2 which I'm currently using with the 1.7's, so looks like some fun listening ahead, after the new sub arrives... which ever one does emerge. Thanks for the recs! Can't beat the looks of the svs sb13 u either.. Give them a call if in doubt the guys there are great and more than happy to discuss
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Post by ocezam on Jan 3, 2015 11:36:57 GMT -5
This thread is much appreciated! I've surfed through reviews on all the subs mentioned so far. My comfort level has gone way up... also my budget limit has crept up from 1500 to 2000, if needed. It's also good to see the subs above this limit, as an aspirational thing. One "myth" has been dispelled, in that I thought it safer to seek out a 10" sub to preserve the musicality factor, but it seems that even a 13.5" sub like the SVS SB13 Ultra can be trusted to be "quick" enough to stay out of it's own way. Thanks for the recs! That's good to hear. The SVS SB13 Ultra would be near the top of my list also, assuming I didn't want to build for some reason. If you've room for two subs and you don't mind a little work, I'd build two of these: www.parts-express.com/dayton-audio-12-reference-series-ho-subwoofer-and-cabinet-package--300-7092 use a pair of these to drive them: www.parts-express.com/dayton-audio-spa1000-1000w-subwoofer-plate-amplifier--300-809You'd probably have both complete for about $1200. Great, powerful, musical subs. And you'd have a stereo pair.
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Post by flatpicker on Jan 3, 2015 12:28:20 GMT -5
Thanks for those links... I am a DIY-er as far as carpentry, masonry and wiring goes, but haven't ventured into the electronics realm. I'll consider for future. I like the idea. Looks like the SB13 is the current leader now, especially with the 45 day approval... but I need to do some more due diligence on a few others. I've got 4 low end Polk subs that I've accumulated over time too, that I need to get on Craigslist to ease the path. If I do go with the SB13's, I see one can save $200 by getting 2... but I'm getting carried away, I better slow down.
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djreef
Sensei
Thoroughly enjoying my Schiit
Posts: 353
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Post by djreef on Jan 3, 2015 12:37:21 GMT -5
This thread is much appreciated! I've surfed through reviews on all the subs mentioned so far. My comfort level has gone way up... also my budget limit has crept up from 1500 to 2000, if needed. It's also good to see the subs above this limit, as an aspirational thing. One "myth" has been dispelled, in that I thought it safer to seek out a 10" sub to preserve the musicality factor, but it seems that even a 13.5" sub like the SVS SB13 Ultra can be trusted to be "quick" enough to stay out of it's own way. My SA-250 is due to ship in 4 days, and reports are that it has bass benefits over the XPA-2 which I'm currently using with the 1.7's, so looks like some fun listening ahead, after the new sub arrives... which ever one does emerge. Thanks for the recs! Well, then - go with stereo subs crossed over at 150-200Hz and you'll solve the problem of directionality. Fixed. Rhythmik, Powersound, and SVS all make top flight subs that will work splendidly. You may fnd that a pair of SB-2000s works better for your room than a single SB13. DJ
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Post by garbulky on Jan 3, 2015 12:37:26 GMT -5
If you are looking to cut costs, the Powersound XV15 is FANTASTIC at a really nice price. Just one of those bad boys pounded it out in a very large room quite nicely.
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Post by ocezam on Jan 3, 2015 13:54:15 GMT -5
If you are looking to cut costs, the Powersound XV15 is FANTASTIC at a really nice price. Just one of those bad boys pounded it out in a very large room quite nicely. Having never heard any of their products in person, I'd be more likely to purchase the XS15, it's sealed. Like I said before, there are good ported subs out there, and if Garbulky's heard this one and can vouch for it, it's probably good also. However it's a lot easier to screw up a ported design than a sealed one.
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Post by pedrocols on Jan 3, 2015 14:43:50 GMT -5
This thread is much appreciated! I've surfed through reviews on all the subs mentioned so far. My comfort level has gone way up... also my budget limit has crept up from 1500 to 2000, if needed. It's also good to see the subs above this limit, as an aspirational thing. One "myth" has been dispelled, in that I thought it safer to seek out a 10" sub to preserve the musicality factor, but it seems that even a 13.5" sub like the SVS SB13 Ultra can be trusted to be "quick" enough to stay out of it's own way. My SA-250 is due to ship in 4 days, and reports are that it has bass benefits over the XPA-2 which I'm currently using with the 1.7's, so looks like some fun listening ahead, after the new sub arrives... which ever one does emerge. Thanks for the recs! Well, then - go with stereo subs crossed over at 150-200Hz and you'll solve the problem of directionality. Fixed. Rhythmik, Powersound, and SVS all make top flight subs that will work splendidly. You may fnd that a pair of SB-2000s works better for your room than a single SB13. DJ SO what you are suggesting is to basically run the maggies as if they were satelite speakers?
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Post by pedrocols on Jan 3, 2015 15:04:29 GMT -5
I just want to remind you guys about the question the OP is inquiring about: "what's a good sub that matches well with Maggie 1.7's?" Obviously he seems to agreed that Magnepans need a subwoofer! Yep. That's why I responded with this two days ago: Too slow is a ridiculous term. I'm an old Maggie guy and that phrase always grated on me. It illustrated nothing and has no basis in fact. Get a good, accurate, non-boomy sub and you'll be fine. I prefer sealed, but there are some great ported subs out there. Most cheap ported subs are the definition of boomy. They are "one note wonders". I'd get a good sealed sub that's happy up to at least 250 hz and cross over about 150hz or above. Maggies can make bass, but cones make better bass, all the way up to mid bass IMO. Peace Wanting a Maggie to sound and play music like a cone speaker defies the purpose of the design. If you want a cone speaker performance from a magnepan speakers is just not gonna happen.
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Post by ocezam on Jan 3, 2015 16:11:55 GMT -5
Yep. That's why I responded with this two days ago: Too slow is a ridiculous term. I'm an old Maggie guy and that phrase always grated on me. It illustrated nothing and has no basis in fact. Get a good, accurate, non-boomy sub and you'll be fine. I prefer sealed, but there are some great ported subs out there. Most cheap ported subs are the definition of boomy. They are "one note wonders". I'd get a good sealed sub that's happy up to at least 250 hz and cross over about 150hz or above. Maggies can make bass, but cones make better bass, all the way up to mid bass IMO. Peace Wanting a Maggie to sound and play music like a cone speaker defies the purpose of the design. If you want a cone speaker performance from a magnepan speakers is just not gonna happen. Who said I "wanted a maggie to sound and play music like a cone speaker"? Ridiculous straw man argument. I simply want a lot better bass and mid-bass performance. And yeah, it's infinitely possible. Many, many guys have done it to their satisfaction. Earlier you accused me of giving advice without having any Magnepan experience. Well I have fairly significant Magnepan experience. As an owner and a fan. How much speaker design and construction experience do you have? I built my first set of full range speakers in 1978. My cousin still has them. We've re-coned, and re-foamed them but they still do what they were designed to do. What is it about what I'm saying that is bugging you? Essentially, we are disagreeing about a crossover frequency and you want to take that personally? I think Maggies sound MUCH better crossed over in the mid bass. You can disagree. I conceded most Magnepan owners would. But far from ALL of them would. I personally don't like planer bass. Simple as that. OK? Jeez...
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Post by pedrocols on Jan 3, 2015 16:18:05 GMT -5
Wanting a Maggie to sound and play music like a cone speaker defies the purpose of the design. If you want a cone speaker performance from a magnepan speakers is just not gonna happen. Who said I "wanted a maggie to sound and play music like a cone speaker"? Ridiculous straw man argument. I simply want a lot better bass and mid-bass performance. And yeah, it's infinitely possible. Many, many guys have done it to their satisfaction. Earlier you accused me of giving advice without having any Magnepan experience. Well I have fairly significant Magnepan experience. As an owner and a fan. How much speaker design and construction experience do you have? I built my first set of full range speakers in 1978. My cousin still has them. We've re-coned, and re-foamed them but they still do what they were designed to do. What is it about what I'm saying that is bugging you? Essentially, we are disagreeing about a crossover frequency and you want to take that personally? I think Maggies sound MUCH better crossed over in the mid bass. You can disagree. I conceded most Magnepan owners would. But far from ALL of them would. I personally don't like planer bass. Simple as that. OK? Jeez... I only quote you in one comment and is just basically a general statment. I am sorry if you took personal this or any other post.
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Post by ocezam on Jan 3, 2015 16:39:25 GMT -5
Who said I "wanted a maggie to sound and play music like a cone speaker"? Ridiculous straw man argument. I simply want a lot better bass and mid-bass performance. And yeah, it's infinitely possible. Many, many guys have done it to their satisfaction. Earlier you accused me of giving advice without having any Magnepan experience. Well I have fairly significant Magnepan experience. As an owner and a fan. How much speaker design and construction experience do you have? I built my first set of full range speakers in 1978. My cousin still has them. We've re-coned, and re-foamed them but they still do what they were designed to do. What is it about what I'm saying that is bugging you? Essentially, we are disagreeing about a crossover frequency and you want to take that personally? I think Maggies sound MUCH better crossed over in the mid bass. You can disagree. I conceded most Magnepan owners would. But far from ALL of them would. I personally don't like planer bass. Simple as that. OK? Jeez... I only quote you in one comment and is just basically a general statment. I am sorry if you took personal this or any other post. Well I in turn apologize if I'm taking your comments out of context. But saying I "wanted a maggie to sound and play music like a cone speaker" is putting words in my mouth. And they are words I do not agree with. I simply want better bass. Better to MY ears.
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Post by pedrocols on Jan 3, 2015 17:18:44 GMT -5
I only quote you in one comment and is just basically a general statment. I am sorry if you took personal this or any other post. Well I in turn apologize if I'm taking your comments out of context. But saying I "wanted a maggie to sound and play music like a cone speaker" is putting words in my mouth. And they are words I do not agree with. I simply want better bass. Better to MY ears. No problem.
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klinemj
Emo VIPs
Honorary Emofest Scribe
Posts: 14,776
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Post by klinemj on Jan 3, 2015 17:47:34 GMT -5
I am leaning to one of the SVS at this point. A new sub is next on my list, but I need to see how this year's taxes work out before I buy. I got slammed last year due to unexpected income at the last minute, and I hope to not get bit so hard this year to leave room for a sub. Maybe by that time, the new Emo line will be out!
Mark
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