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Post by jdubs on Aug 27, 2015 6:46:20 GMT -5
Doing some research into doing a DIY sealed sub (actually a pair). I wouldn't have problems calculating and following cubic volume parameters for a certain sub. What I'm having issues with is this: it doesn't make sense to pay $500 for a driver when SVS and PSA have complete units for $500-1000. How do I go about finding a GOOD, price effective driver?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 27, 2015 7:36:50 GMT -5
Thing is. Output of a diy for 500-800 will outperform subs 1200-1500 from Id companies.
Just if you want to put in the time to build it. And it probably won't come out as nicely with fit and finish as with is companies. Ymmv
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Post by jdubs on Aug 27, 2015 7:45:38 GMT -5
Thing is. Output of a diy for 500-800 will outperform subs 1200-1500 from Id companies. Just if you want to put in the time to build it. And it probably won't come out as nicely with fit and finish as with is companies. Ymmv Thanks, something to consider. I was looking at it from a $ saving perspective, but quality per dollar is different. I feel like I could build a cabinet with help from my brother-in-law or my carpenter friend. If it turns out ugly and you already have the raw driver, just redo! I ran across Morel... pricey but seems like a good quality company. Morel Drivers |
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kazoo
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Post by kazoo on Aug 27, 2015 7:48:51 GMT -5
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Post by jdubs on Aug 27, 2015 8:09:11 GMT -5
I guess what I'm asking is: how do I know what is quality? |
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Post by Loop 7 on Aug 27, 2015 9:50:25 GMT -5
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KeithL
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Post by KeithL on Aug 27, 2015 10:04:49 GMT -5
Interesting.... and I would have said the exact opposite.... The price you pay for a certain driver as an individual is often WAY more than what a manufacturer pays for the same driver in large quantities (double or even triple isn't unusual). This isn't true for all drivers, but tends to be more true for expensive or premium drivers than for cheap ones. This is simply due to the normal premium that you'll pay for any part in small quantities (like buying ten screws in a little plastic bag instead of a box of 100 or 1000). Or you could look at it that you're paying retail, and so have to give a profit to the parts house you buy it from, as well as compensate them for all the handling, shipping, and such. Since a manufacturer also pays a lot less for a pre-made cabinet, or for the parts and labor to produce it, it's not at all uncommon for a finished product to be available for less than the retail cost of the parts. The real benefit to doing a DIY project is usually in one of two areas: 1) Customization - You get to build a speaker that does just what you want, fits exactly in the spot you have picked out for it, and has exactly the finish you like. You also get to choose exactly the components you prefer, and the way they're used (things like crossover parameters). 2) Labor - When you build a DIY project you generally don't count the cost of your own labor. How much this affects your project will, of course, depend on the specifics. You can probably buy a pre-fab MDF cabinet, painted in flat black, for less than you can make one for. Add really extensive bracing, or two inches of concrete on the inside surfaces, and it might be cheaper to do it yourself using your own ("free") labor. But, if you want a real solid wood cabinet, or even really nice hand-rubbed veneer, there's going to be a log of hand labor and custom construction involved, so you can save a massive amount of money by doing it yourself. 3) Satisfaction - This one is really "3 of 2" because it's a huge thing to some people and not to others. Some people get a massive amount of satisfaction out of being able to say "I did it myself". 4) Build Quality - I'm listing this one as "4 of 2" because it's even more variable that the previous one. A DIY project may or may not have great workmanship - that depends on your personal level of skill and how much effort you're willing to expend. My woodworking skills aren't very good, and I don't have the patience to spend hours hand sanding a wood cabinet to get that lovely smooth finish - so my hand made cabinet probably won't look better than really good plastic fake veneer. (Let's be honest; I'll probably paint it black, or slap a copy of varnish-stain on it and call it a day.) Likewise, my metalworking skills are only so-so. Which is why I'd love to send a CAD drawing out to a wood fab house or a machine shop, and have then make it for me, but I try to avoid hand-building stuff whenever possible - and doing that works well for production runs but costs way too much for most DIYers. DIYers also have a habit of using absurdly expensive parts - often where they simply don't matter - whereas manufacturers do the opposite. So you may be able to get better performance because you used a better part; or you may end up simply spending a lot more money for a more expensive part that doesn't actually perform any better, or for one that, while it performs better in some applications, doesn't perform any better in your application . There are some places where using a fancy 0.1% bulk tantalum bare resistor really helps, and some where it doesn't work any better than a cheap 1% metal film equivalent, and possibly even a few places where the cheaper part works better. Manufacturers have engineers whose job it is to figure stuff like this out. (I'm not trying to discourage anyone from using better than necessary parts just so they can have the satisfaction of knowing that their pet project "uses the best of everything" - just bear in mind that doing so doesn't necessarily mean that it will work better.) Another variation on this theme is that DIYers tend to "overbuild", which can be a good thing or a bad thing.... I'll give you an example there that I hear pretty often..... adding bigger power supply capacitors to a power amp. The value of power supply filter capacitors required in a power amp depends on a lot of things. If the filters are too small, it might limit the power of the amplifier, or cause higher amounts of distortion at certain frequencies - and, if so, then using bigger ones might improve performance. However, if the value used is optimum to begin with, then using larger ones won't improve performance at all. Even worse, those larger capacitors might put more of a strain on other parts. (The higher inrush current might blow your power supply rectifiers; or it might have been impossible to overload your output section with the original ones because they weren't able to deliver enough power, while your "new and improved" ones have improved things to the point where you can actually set something on fire if something goes wrong.) That's why, if you don't have any circuit design knowledge, or speaker building experience, you're probably better off sticking with "DIY projects" which have been carefully designed by someone who has. Specifically as regards a DIY subwoofer, if you're building a "basic black sub", I doubt you'll build one yourself that's significantly better than a commercial one for less money. If you're trying to get the absolute best performance for each of your dollars, you're probably better off spending time researching used ones you find on eBay until you find a great deal. The real "value" of building your own sub is being able to make one that fits into an odd location, or being able to pick some really nice wood, and spending a lot of time getting a perfect finish on it. And, since the design of the cabinet and crossover is probably more important overall to how your sub will perform than the driver itself, using a known design and sticking with it is especially important. It's not at all difficult to put an excellent driver into a well-made cabinet and end up with really poor performance if your design isn't right. (For example, with some designs, if you make the cabinet 10% smaller, or 10% larger, you will need to adjust the size of the port, or even components in the crossover, or the performance won't be anything like it was with the original specs.) Parts Express generally has DIY projects available online for using the components they sell. They usually include detailed construction plans, modification hints, and specifications about what you can expect from the finished device.And, if you're really concerned with price and performance, simply read the specs, and compare them to commercial equivalents for yourself. Thing is. Output of a diy for 500-800 will outperform subs 1200-1500 from Id companies. Just if you want to put in the time to build it. And it probably won't come out as nicely with fit and finish as with is companies. Ymmv |
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Post by garym on Aug 27, 2015 10:09:48 GMT -5
Doing some research into doing a DIY sealed sub (actually a pair). I wouldn't have problems calculating and following cubic volume parameters for a certain sub. What I'm having issues with is this: it doesn't make sense to pay $500 for a driver when SVS and PSA have complete units for $500-1000. How do I go about finding a GOOD, price effective driver? Have you checked out the Dayton sub drivers? I've built 3 DIY subs, a 15" using a Bravox driver and a pair of 12" using the Dayton RSS315HF drivers. The latter are about $150 ea. Dayton also has a new 18" driver that's been tempting me.  |
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Post by garym on Aug 27, 2015 10:12:28 GMT -5
I guess what I'm asking is: how do I know what is quality? Check DataBass. They have in depth reviews, with measurements, of many sub drivers. www.data-bass.com/home |
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KeithL
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Post by KeithL on Aug 27, 2015 10:29:13 GMT -5
The "bucket sub" is interesting. I've never heard one in person, but it's one of those weird designs that actually does follow reasonably sound engineering practices - even though it may not appear so at first. Other low cost designs use Sonotube for the cabinet (that big heavy cardboard tubing that's used as cement forms to pour round footings). However, do remember that it is a passive sub - so you need an amp to power it. (They call out a "plate amp" but, since the sub is odd shaped, you're going to need a separate box for that amp.... ) |
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Post by monkumonku on Aug 27, 2015 11:27:12 GMT -5
Plus you can sit on it if you get bored.. |
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Post by cheapthryl on Aug 27, 2015 12:24:00 GMT -5
I read that if you use anything other than the original design components the sub sounds lousy. I've really wanted to throw one of these together. Unfortunately no time as of yet.
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KeithL
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Post by KeithL on Aug 27, 2015 13:28:43 GMT -5
I could certainly believe that.... The construction they used has a lot of characteristics that should cause it work very poorly - but the exact way it all goes together serves to minimize those negatives. For example, the plastic of the bucket itself isn't very rigid, but the cylinder shape is very strong and stable in certain directions, and the plastic won't stretch much at all. (A flat side made of that material would flex like a drum head, but all of the pressure applied to the bucket is symmetrical, so that pressure is trying to make the cylinder expand and contract, and not trying to make it bend or flex. Since heavy plastic is very resistant to stretching, the direction in which the bucket is strong aligns perfectly with the direction in which it needs to be strong.) The end "plate" where the woofer is mounted probably flexes considerably, but as long as that flex is symmetrical and linear, it might reduce the overall output by a fraction of a dB, but isn't going to introduce much distortion. The concrete base, sitting off the floor on rubber feet, will serve to isolate vibration from reaching the floor, and keep the whole thing from bouncing around. If I were designing it "on paper", I think I might have added a little bit of stuffing, and perhaps one or two horizontal "belts" of Sorbothane circling the inside to absorb and stray resonances, but additions like that often - well - sound good on paper but don't work well in practice. I think there might be a few considerations when selecting materials..... for example the bucket should probably be cylindrical rather than tapered (although a tapered shape has other characteristics to recommend it), and it should be made of as heavy plastic as you can find, but probably still more of the consistency of "stiff rubber" rather than of hard plastic - you would want a bucket more the consistency of a heavy duty recycling container than of a cheap plastic garbage can or a stiff plastic plastic aquarium (I suspect that "hard" plastic might resonate, and soft plastic that's too thin would flex, and the combination of a thick, but soft and tough, plastic is the best one). I read that if you use anything other than the original design components the sub sounds lousy. I've really wanted to throw one of these together. Unfortunately no time as of yet.
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Post by trevordj on Aug 27, 2015 13:48:45 GMT -5
DIYers also have a habit of using absurdly expensive parts - often where they simply don't matter - whereas manufacturers do the opposite. So you may be able to get better performance because you used a better part; or you may end up simply spending a lot more money for a more expensive part that doesn't actually perform any better, or for one that, while it performs better in some applications, doesn't perform any better in your application . There are some places where using a fancy 0.1% bulk tantalum bare resistor really helps, and some where it doesn't work any better than a cheap 1% metal film equivalent, and possibly even a few places where the cheaper part works better. Manufacturers have engineers whose job it is to figure stuff like this out. (I'm not trying to discourage anyone from using better than necessary parts just so they can have the satisfaction of knowing that their pet project "uses the best of everything" - just bear in mind that doing so doesn't necessarily mean that it will work better.) Another variation on this theme is that DIYers tend to "overbuild", which can be a good thing or a bad thing.... I'll give you an example there that I hear pretty often..... adding bigger power supply capacitors to a power amp. The value of power supply filter capacitors required in a power amp depends on a lot of things. If the filters are too small, it might limit the power of the amplifier, or cause higher amounts of distortion at certain frequencies - and, if so, then using bigger ones might improve performance. However, if the value used is optimum to begin with, then using larger ones won't improve performance at all. Even worse, those larger capacitors might put more of a strain on other parts. (The higher inrush current might blow your power supply rectifiers; or it might have been impossible to overload your output section with the original ones because they weren't able to deliver enough power, while your "new and improved" ones have improved things to the point where you can actually set something on fire if something goes wrong.) In the late 90s/early 2000s it was common marketing propaganda to see large stiffening capacitors used in car audio. They still persist but seem less common. I would not say it is common place to see DIYers overhauling amplifiers with esoteric capacitors though. Usually DIYers simply purchase inexpensive pro amplifiers and call it a day. Sometimes a more quiet fan or a 12V trigger is added but otherwise the amplifiers are run stock for the most part. Unless people are going way overboard with esoteric passive crossover components for DIY mains (not subs) I don't see a lot of other places you can go with over the top stuff for a subwoofer... I guess with esoteric speaker wire or silver speaker terminals, but in my experience DIYers (especially for subs) are usually very budget conscious. Subwoofer, speaker wire, cabinet, finish, amplifier, and interconnects is really all there is to it. It is pretty inexpensive to get good performance DIY. A stereo integrity HT18 can be purchased for $174, make that two for $350. Add a Behringer inuke 6000DSP to power them for $400 and two 4 cubic foot subwoofer boxes from DIYSG for $240 and you are looking at a pretty sweet dual subwoofer setup for under $1000. Compare this to a single SVS SB13 with a smaller woofer, less power, and only one woofer for $1600 |
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Post by trevordj on Aug 27, 2015 13:52:39 GMT -5
Doing some research into doing a DIY sealed sub (actually a pair). I wouldn't have problems calculating and following cubic volume parameters for a certain sub. What I'm having issues with is this: it doesn't make sense to pay $500 for a driver when SVS and PSA have complete units for $500-1000. How do I go about finding a GOOD, price effective driver? Have you checked out the Dayton sub drivers? I've built 3 DIY subs, a 15" using a Bravox driver and a pair of 12" using the Dayton RSS315HF drivers. The latter are about $150 ea. Dayton also has a new 18" driver that's been tempting me. View AttachmentAgreed, the Dayton 460HO and UM-18 are pretty sweet. I also like the stereo integrity HST subwoofers. Careful with DIY though, it gets addicting pretty quickly. My plans for DIY subs started with dual HST18s and a speakerpower SP1-4000. I now have expanded the project to include four HST18s, four HST15s and two speakerpower SP2-8000. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 27, 2015 14:21:57 GMT -5
As with most things Keith says. I disagree completely.
Just check the diy forum on AVS.
Diy is king of bang for your buck
And diy for subs is pretty brainless
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KeithL
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Post by KeithL on Aug 27, 2015 14:32:17 GMT -5
DIYers also have a habit of using absurdly expensive parts - often where they simply don't matter - whereas manufacturers do the opposite. So you may be able to get better performance because you used a better part; or you may end up simply spending a lot more money for a more expensive part that doesn't actually perform any better, or for one that, while it performs better in some applications, doesn't perform any better in your application . There are some places where using a fancy 0.1% bulk tantalum bare resistor really helps, and some where it doesn't work any better than a cheap 1% metal film equivalent, and possibly even a few places where the cheaper part works better. Manufacturers have engineers whose job it is to figure stuff like this out. (I'm not trying to discourage anyone from using better than necessary parts just so they can have the satisfaction of knowing that their pet project "uses the best of everything" - just bear in mind that doing so doesn't necessarily mean that it will work better.) Another variation on this theme is that DIYers tend to "overbuild", which can be a good thing or a bad thing.... I'll give you an example there that I hear pretty often..... adding bigger power supply capacitors to a power amp. The value of power supply filter capacitors required in a power amp depends on a lot of things. If the filters are too small, it might limit the power of the amplifier, or cause higher amounts of distortion at certain frequencies - and, if so, then using bigger ones might improve performance. However, if the value used is optimum to begin with, then using larger ones won't improve performance at all. Even worse, those larger capacitors might put more of a strain on other parts. (The higher inrush current might blow your power supply rectifiers; or it might have been impossible to overload your output section with the original ones because they weren't able to deliver enough power, while your "new and improved" ones have improved things to the point where you can actually set something on fire if something goes wrong.) In the late 90s/early 2000s it was common marketing propaganda to see large stiffening capacitors used in car audio. They still persist but seem less common. I would not say it is common place to see DIYers overhauling amplifiers with esoteric capacitors though. Usually DIYers simply purchase inexpensive pro amplifiers and call it a day. Sometimes a more quiet fan or a 12V trigger is added but otherwise the amplifiers are run stock for the most part. Unless people are going way overboard with esoteric passive crossover components for DIY mains (not subs) I don't see a lot of other places you can go with over the top stuff for a subwoofer... I guess with esoteric speaker wire or silver speaker terminals, but in my experience DIYers (especially for subs) are usually very budget conscious. Subwoofer, speaker wire, cabinet, finish, amplifier, and interconnects is really all there is to it. It is pretty inexpensive to get good performance DIY. A stereo integrity HT18 can be purchased for $174, make that two for $350. Add a Behringer inuke 6000DSP to power them for $400 and two 4 cubic foot subwoofer boxes from DIYSG for $240 and you are looking at a pretty sweet dual subwoofer setup for under $1000. Compare this to a single SVS SB13 with a smaller woofer, less power, and only one woofer for $1600 I would tend to agree with you that "true DIYers" usually don't add extra power supply capacitance. However, "audio tweakers", who I would put in a separate category, very often fiddle with capacitors. I would say that the two most common tweaks are to replace any electrolytic capacitors in the signal path with polypropylene or metal film equivalents, which may sometimes give a slight audible improvement, and to bypass the electrolytic caps in the power supply with smaller high frequency ones, which may help rejection of high-frequency noise, and probably won't hurt in any case. However, there is a bit of a tendency for DIYers to "use good audiophile capacitors instead of ordinary ones"; and, while this usually won't hurt, it can often waste a lot of money better spent elsewhere. Also, because modern power supply capacitors of a given electrical value are much smaller than their vintage counterparts, I do sometimes see people replacing the originals with modern ones of higher value - but the same physical size (the logic seems to be "more must be better - and it fits"). I would agree with you about the construction of subs, but there are a few fancy drivers out there with die cast baskets and fancy binding posts that, to put it bluntly, make the driver look and feel a lot nicer while you're holding it, but don't contribute to it's actually performing any better once the cover is on. (Thankfully, most of the people who consider amazingly expensive speaker wire with dubious or nonexistent electrical benefits worth buying don't usually extend that to subs.) However, I would caution everyone to always consider actual performance. A lot of what you're paying for in a commercial product is the cost of developing the product, and the knowledge of the designers. I don't know how the performance of the DIY sub you describe compares to the commercial SVS model. It may be better, but it may not. One of the biggest benefits of buying a commercial product is that it is a known quantity. I'm sure you could spend $2000 on drivers and parts and, if you made bad design or construction choices, end up with something that ISN'T as good as its commercial counterpart for half the price. You can read the specs on that SVS sub and be reasonably certain that the unit you purchase will actually meet them. However, I've definitely seen my share of beautifully finished, and lovingly constructed, homemade speakers that nonetheless sounded pretty bad - many of them made out of really nice parts. The trick is to do one's design homework and not fall into the trap of assuming that, if you use really good parts, "you can do no wrong". A well designed speaker made from crappy parts will almost always sound better than a poorly designed speaker made from good parts. (And, although a sub is simpler to design than a multi-way full range speaker, speaker design is still somewhat complicated.) (I would never try to discourage anyone who honestly enjoys building things from making their own sub. However, if the goal is strictly to save money, and acknowledging that a DIY speaker is going to lack things you would get with a commercial unit, like a warranty, and performance that you can reliably predict in advance, then you also need to compare the cost and performance of building your own to the cost of buying a good USED sub. And, if you like fancy woodworking, you might find more satisfaction in buying a good used commercial unit with known performance, and refinishing it to your specifications. The reality is that, while building your own equipment from scratch is a great hobby, especially if you actually enjoy it, it is rarely justified on true price/performance grounds alone. And don't forget, if you're not actually enjoying it, then you need to add the cost of your labor as well.) |
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Post by trevordj on Aug 27, 2015 17:52:59 GMT -5
However, I would caution everyone to always consider actual performance. A lot of what you're paying for in a commercial product is the cost of developing the product, and the knowledge of the designers. I don't know how the performance of the DIY sub you describe compares to the commercial SVS model. It may be better, but it may not. One of the biggest benefits of buying a commercial product is that it is a known quantity. In terms of output, a single HT18 in a 4 ft^3 sealed box outperforms the SVS PB-13 in its 6 ft^3 box with similar distortion measurements all for less than half the price including an amplifier. |
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Post by jhob on Aug 27, 2015 21:58:04 GMT -5
www.data-bass.com/data?page=systems&type=2In terms of output, a single HT18 in a 4 ft^3 sealed box outperforms the SVS PB-13 in its 6 ft^3 box with similar distortion measurements all for less than half the price including an amplifier. Again although Keith used big words and technical jumbo jumbo. He is talking out his ass and has no clue what he's talking about Especially with diy subs. You have to be a complete moron to screw up a sub (a speaker yes cause the xover is tricky) but not a sub. A 200$ driver 150$ flatpack and 300$ dsp amp and you are rivaling subs that cost 1500-2000$ in performance I spend a lot of time reading these boards, and you always seem so negative. I think you are knowledgeable, and I've learned a lot from some of your posts, but you don't have to be rude, and overtly insulting. |
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Post by pedrocols on Aug 27, 2015 22:07:38 GMT -5
Again although Keith used big words and technical jumbo jumbo. He is talking out his ass and has no clue what he's talking about Especially with diy subs. You have to be a complete moron to screw up a sub (a speaker yes cause the xover is tricky) but not a sub. A 200$ driver 150$ flatpack and 300$ dsp amp and you are rivaling subs that cost 1500-2000$ in performance I spend a lot of time reading these boards, and you always seem so negative. I think you are knowledgeable, and I've learned a lot from some of your posts, but you don't have to be rude, and overtly insulting. I think he has been banned from this forum in the past if I remember correctly. However, we are all adults here and hopefully mindful of how we can potentially be disrespectful and try the best of our ability to be able to have an opinion and respect other's opinion. |
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