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Post by markc on Nov 9, 2015 1:49:54 GMT -5
Pocobear, that's a handy work-around, using PCM output to avoid a DSD thump, but a work-around nonetheless, and not a fix for the XMC-1 not being able to do what it says it will do and what my other two receivers will do - i.e. play DSD over HDMI as per specification.
Secondly, the Dirac usage as you suggest is a benefit of DSD converted to PCM is a nice argument to support this fudge / workaround, but my Dirac pre-set is set up for movies - i.e. the speakers set to small with crossovers as appropriate for each speaker.
This makes my Dirac preset less that ideal for music listening where sending a stereo signal to my capable floorstanders will sound much smoother than sending it to 2.1, even if the subwoofer can go lower into the deep bass.
Like many "audiophiles" I don't like playing stereo music in 2.1 and I don't like the idea of playing 5.1 music and crossing over every channel to send the main channel signals summed with the LFE (if present) to the subwoofer.
The XMC-1 specification states that these fudges should not be required.
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Post by wizardofoz on Nov 9, 2015 5:07:56 GMT -5
thats like using the headphone out on my iPhone to line in my oppo HA-2 DSD-DAC instead of the lightening connection that is fully digital.
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cawgijoe
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Post by cawgijoe on Nov 9, 2015 6:26:00 GMT -5
I only use the HDMI 2 output from my Oppo 103 to XMC-1 to play an SACD disc outputting DSD with no noise or thumps.
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Post by darien87 on Nov 9, 2015 11:27:40 GMT -5
I've just noticed a new issue with the 3.1 firmware. While watching BD's from my PS 3 via HDMI, the center channel volume fluctuates randomly. It will suddenly go very quiet and then get louder again. It's happened with 3 different movies. I didn't check the audio stream on the first 2 movies but I know the third one was DTS HD MA 7.1 I had the same on a BD extra recently. I paused the player and hit play and the sound was OK again. I don't recall what the audio type was. So I did a little more research last weekend when I noticed that I watched a few movies through the PS4 and didn't have the center channel volume fluctuation issue. The PS4 was outputting audio via linear PCM. I checked the PS3 and it was outputting audio via Bitstream. Also the soft clicks when an audio stream changes isn't completely gone. I still heard it a couple of times from the PS4. When I changed the PS3 to Linear PCM the clicks decreased. When I changed it back to Bitstream, the clicks came back. I didn't watch any movies long enough to manifest the center channel issue but there was definitely a repeatable issue with clicking when using Bitstream from the PS3. So I guess I will leave my PS3 on PCM. Unfortunately that means I don't get to see the pretty DTS MA and Dolby TrueHD logos on the display of my XMC. The clicks aren't completely gone for me but they have decreased. I'd say the noises are about 60% gone for me. I'll give Emotiva a call and inform them of my findings. |
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Post by texthai on Nov 10, 2015 15:48:57 GMT -5
What am I doing wrong guys?  ? Now my SETUP for my inputs is not persistent any more, since 3.1a. I set my inputs for speaker preset to DIRAC, and next time I turn on the machine they are back to Preset 1. I set the 5.1 Mode to Surround and next time I turn on the machine, it has come back to Dolby PLIIx Music. I set the 2.0 mode to DTS Neo 6 Cinema and next time I turn on the machine it is back to Dolby PLIIx Music. I really dislike this setting, and when I set to Auto, I ALWAYS get Dolby PLIIx Music. What can I possibly be doing wrong. Any and all help for the SLOW here will be much appreciated. God Bless, Wayne |
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LCSeminole
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Post by LCSeminole on Nov 11, 2015 17:57:48 GMT -5
I had the same on a BD extra recently. I paused the player and hit play and the sound was OK again. I don't recall what the audio type was. So I did a little more research last weekend when I noticed that I watched a few movies through the PS4 and didn't have the center channel volume fluctuation issue. The PS4 was outputting audio via linear PCM. I checked the PS3 and it was outputting audio via Bitstream. Also the soft clicks when an audio stream changes isn't completely gone. I still heard it a couple of times from the PS4. When I changed the PS3 to Linear PCM the clicks decreased. When I changed it back to Bitstream, the clicks came back. I didn't watch any movies long enough to manifest the center channel issue but there was definitely a repeatable issue with clicking when using Bitstream from the PS3. So I guess I will leave my PS3 on PCM. Unfortunately that means I don't get to see the pretty DTS MA and Dolby TrueHD logos on the display of my XMC. The clicks aren't completely gone for me but they have decreased. I'd say the noises are about 60% gone for me. I'll give Emotiva a call and inform them of my findings. Which version of the PS3 do you have? I ask because only the newer slim versions of the PS3's actually have the capability of bitstreaming the high def audio codecs of DTS-HD MA or Dolby TrueHD. |
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Carlito55
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Post by Carlito55 on Nov 11, 2015 18:52:25 GMT -5
I just upgraded to 3.1a and haven't experimented again but when I was on 3.0 (shipped to me w/3.0) I tried turning the tv on and off and was getting the same speaker cracks as others here. Actually, it didn't occur to me to turn on the tv until I read it here. It reminded me of the UMC-1. When I was done watching a movie recorded on the pvr (cable box) and went back to live TV (cable box) it would produce a loud static-y distortion for several tenths of a second. The XMC has improved significantly on that because it only shows up as a couple of thumps now when doing other things while decoding DSD. I haven't heard the cracks with any other sound format. So the point that I'm taking forever to make is that the thumps are not new to 3.1 in my experience.
I actually didn't come across the thumps until I started playing with sending DSD from the 103. Since I have never heard what my sacd's actually sound like (always had to output PCM until getting the XMC), it was high time to compare PCM to DSD. My go-to reference recording is the MoFi edition of Tin Pan Alley from Couldn't Stand The Weather by SRV. While the track was playing, I was in the Oppo 's settings and was switching back and forth between PCM and DSD output. Going from DSD to PCM there was barely a noise during the second or 2 of silence while the XMC shifted gears. Going from PCM to DSD was another story: CRACK! CRACK! Then I tried the TV thing. On and off with PCM output was just silence but with DSD, that produced thumps.
To me it reeks of side effects from the HDMI handshake. I stop short of declaring that DSD decoding doesn't work properly since it seems like an HDMI issue to me. It is very annoying and would be very nice if it didn't happen but I am willing to believe that it will be hard to fix. Therefore I am prepared to live with it. However, if there are folks who can't reproduce the issue using the same equipment, then I would want to pursue the fix as well.
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Post by texthai on Nov 12, 2015 11:14:22 GMT -5
Hi Carlito55, and all,
This is a known bug for quite some time, and it was supposedly addressed (fixed) in the 3.1 and 3.1a FW upgrades. It has not been fixed.
In some ways for me it has gotten worse.
I cannot change back and forth from DSD to PCM on my Oppo fast enough to really compare the sound effectively. Can you? Have you decided which one sounds better?
On the positive side of things, my settings in SETUP are now staying in place, staying persistent.
Day before yesterday all my input settings were gone, but some yesterday stayed where I set them, and today they are all in place,
That is especially good news IF I must stay with PCM for my SACDs.
Any suggestions, any notice from Emotiva about what they are going to do to sort this bug out, will be VERY welcome!!!!!
God Bless,
Wayne
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KeithL
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Post by KeithL on Nov 12, 2015 11:51:00 GMT -5
We are looking into the thump thing... and, not to change the subject, but... Do you actually hear any significant difference between playing DSD as DSD and letting the Oppo convert it to PCM first? And, if so, is is a positive difference, or just a tiny but "quality neutral" difference? (Personally, while every conversion has the potential to introduce a tiny difference, and I've heard plenty of SACD versions of albums that are mastered quite differently than their PCM equivalents, I can't say that I find any benefit to the format itself. In other words, while I do have a few SACDs that, at least to me, sound better than the equivalent "non SACD" versions of the same album, they don't sound especially different - or worse - if I convert them to PCM before listening to them; the difference seems to be in the mastering and not in the format itself.) I just upgraded to 3.1a and haven't experimented again but when I was on 3.0 (shipped to me w/3.0) I tried turning the tv on and off and was getting the same speaker cracks as others here. Actually, it didn't occur to me to turn on the tv until I read it here. It reminded me of the UMC-1. When I was done watching a movie recorded on the pvr (cable box) and went back to live TV (cable box) it would produce a loud static-y distortion for several tenths of a second. The XMC has improved significantly on that because it only shows up as a couple of thumps now when doing other things while decoding DSD. I haven't heard the cracks with any other sound format. So the point that I'm taking forever to make is that the thumps are not new to 3.1 in my experience. I actually didn't come across the thumps until I started playing with sending DSD from the 103. Since I have never heard what my sacd's actually sound like (always had to output PCM until getting the XMC), it was high time to compare PCM to DSD. My go-to reference recording is the MoFi edition of Tin Pan Alley from Couldn't Stand The Weather by SRV. While the track was playing, I was in the Oppo 's settings and was switching back and forth between PCM and DSD output. Going from DSD to PCM there was barely a noise during the second or 2 of silence while the XMC shifted gears. Going from PCM to DSD was another story: CRACK! CRACK! Then I tried the TV thing. On and off with PCM output was just silence but with DSD, that produced thumps. To me it reeks of side effects from the HDMI handshake. I stop short of declaring that DSD decoding doesn't work properly since it seems like an HDMI issue to me. It is very annoying and would be very nice if it didn't happen but I am willing to believe that it will be hard to fix. Therefore I am prepared to live with it. However, if there are folks who can't reproduce the issue using the same equipment, then I would want to pursue the fix as well. |
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Post by geebo on Nov 12, 2015 12:22:16 GMT -5
We are looking into the thump thing... and, not to change the subject, but... Do you actually hear any significant difference between playing DSD as DSD and letting the Oppo convert it to PCM first? And, if so, is is a positive difference, or just a tiny but "quality neutral" difference? (Personally, while every conversion has the potential to introduce a tiny difference, and I've heard plenty of SACD versions of albums that are mastered quite differently than their PCM equivalents, I can't say that I find any benefit to the format itself. In other words, while I do have a few SACDs that, at least to me, sound better than the equivalent "non SACD" versions of the same album, they don't sound especially different - or worse - if I convert them to PCM before listening to them; the difference seems to be in the mastering and not in the format itself.) I just upgraded to 3.1a and haven't experimented again but when I was on 3.0 (shipped to me w/3.0) I tried turning the tv on and off and was getting the same speaker cracks as others here. Actually, it didn't occur to me to turn on the tv until I read it here. It reminded me of the UMC-1. When I was done watching a movie recorded on the pvr (cable box) and went back to live TV (cable box) it would produce a loud static-y distortion for several tenths of a second. The XMC has improved significantly on that because it only shows up as a couple of thumps now when doing other things while decoding DSD. I haven't heard the cracks with any other sound format. So the point that I'm taking forever to make is that the thumps are not new to 3.1 in my experience. I actually didn't come across the thumps until I started playing with sending DSD from the 103. Since I have never heard what my sacd's actually sound like (always had to output PCM until getting the XMC), it was high time to compare PCM to DSD. My go-to reference recording is the MoFi edition of Tin Pan Alley from Couldn't Stand The Weather by SRV. While the track was playing, I was in the Oppo 's settings and was switching back and forth between PCM and DSD output. Going from DSD to PCM there was barely a noise during the second or 2 of silence while the XMC shifted gears. Going from PCM to DSD was another story: CRACK! CRACK! Then I tried the TV thing. On and off with PCM output was just silence but with DSD, that produced thumps. To me it reeks of side effects from the HDMI handshake. I stop short of declaring that DSD decoding doesn't work properly since it seems like an HDMI issue to me. It is very annoying and would be very nice if it didn't happen but I am willing to believe that it will be hard to fix. Therefore I am prepared to live with it. However, if there are folks who can't reproduce the issue using the same equipment, then I would want to pursue the fix as well. I can say that converting to PCM and then using Dirac makes a huge and favorable difference. |
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hemster
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Post by hemster on Nov 12, 2015 12:29:35 GMT -5
We are looking into the thump thing... and, not to change the subject, but... Do you actually hear any significant difference between playing DSD as DSD and letting the Oppo convert it to PCM first? And, if so, is is a positive difference, or just a tiny but "quality neutral" difference? (Personally, while every conversion has the potential to introduce a tiny difference, and I've heard plenty of SACD versions of albums that are mastered quite differently than their PCM equivalents, I can't say that I find any benefit to the format itself. In other words, while I do have a few SACDs that, at least to me, sound better than the equivalent "non SACD" versions of the same album, they don't sound especially different - or worse - if I convert them to PCM before listening to them; the difference seems to be in the mastering and not in the format itself.) I can say that converting to PCM and then using Dirac makes a huge and favorable difference. Agreed. I can't imagine why I wouldn't want to engage Dirac while listening to SACDs and enjoy the benefit of RC. |
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Post by geebo on Nov 12, 2015 12:44:05 GMT -5
I can say that converting to PCM and then using Dirac makes a huge and favorable difference. Agreed. I can't imagine why I wouldn't want to engage Dirac while listening to SACDs and enjoy the benefit of RC. The improvement is so obvious. The difference between DSD direct to analog or to PCM is very subtle at most. |
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Post by jmilton on Nov 12, 2015 12:57:02 GMT -5
Downsampling from DSD to 16/44.1 is almost always deleterious to the music. The CD is mastered from the original recording (DSD) and the drop in SQ is due to the reduced bits and SR. DSD to PCM is not the problem, per se. My Oppo outputs 88kHz for SACD, and it still sounds great. I agree, being able to use RC trumps the advantage of DSD direct...but choice is still a good thing.
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Post by texthai on Nov 12, 2015 12:58:23 GMT -5
It may be that DSD to PCM in my Oppo and then played back with DIRAC MIGHT be the best sounding, I don't know.
I SHOULD be able to play in DSD without risking damage to my speakers so that I can compare and decide which does sound better.
Until today, everytime I have tried to do a listening comparison, the change was not fast enough, had to TURN the volume WAY DOWN to make sure I did not blow out my speakers with the THUMPS, then make changes on the Oppo, and then my XMC-1 was not keeping my input settings, my surround setting and my preset to DIRAC. By the time I got those sorted out, and tried to get the volume back the same, I was ticked off and unable to feel like I was comparing apples to apples.
Today it seems to be holding my settings, I REALLY hope it stays this way.
Keith, it will be great if we can get some resolution to the problem by way of a FW update.
Thanks guys,
God Bless,
Wayne
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Post by darien87 on Nov 12, 2015 13:24:58 GMT -5
So I did a little more research last weekend when I noticed that I watched a few movies through the PS4 and didn't have the center channel volume fluctuation issue. The PS4 was outputting audio via linear PCM. I checked the PS3 and it was outputting audio via Bitstream. Also the soft clicks when an audio stream changes isn't completely gone. I still heard it a couple of times from the PS4. When I changed the PS3 to Linear PCM the clicks decreased. When I changed it back to Bitstream, the clicks came back. I didn't watch any movies long enough to manifest the center channel issue but there was definitely a repeatable issue with clicking when using Bitstream from the PS3. So I guess I will leave my PS3 on PCM. Unfortunately that means I don't get to see the pretty DTS MA and Dolby TrueHD logos on the display of my XMC. The clicks aren't completely gone for me but they have decreased. I'd say the noises are about 60% gone for me. I'll give Emotiva a call and inform them of my findings. Which version of the PS3 do you have? I ask because only the newer slim versions of the PS3's actually have the capability of bitstreaming the high def audio codecs of DTS-HD MA or Dolby TrueHD. It is the slim. Per my previous post I had the PS3 bitstreaming. That seems to be the culprit with the center channel volume fluctuation issue. The PS4 outputting PCM didn't have this issue. |
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Post by skippy1977 on Nov 12, 2015 14:47:05 GMT -5
The bottom line is there should be no "thumps" or any unwanted noise with any audio type whether it be DSD or PCM. I find that playing stereo SACDs, CDs, DVD-As or Blu-ray audio discs with Dirac does not appeal to me. I do not like using my subs and prefer to use the Reference Stereo mode for all two channel music playback. Whether someone can tell the difference between DSD and PCM is a discussion for another thread IMO.
Emotiva goes to great lengths to promote the DSD playback capability of the XMC-1. Those that prefer to use DSD direct shouldn't have to explain why they prefer it or be told that using Dirac is the better alternative IMO. If one prefers to use DSD they should be able to do so without the unwanted "thumps".
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Post by geebo on Nov 12, 2015 15:05:30 GMT -5
The bottom line is there should be no "thumps" or any unwanted noise with any audio type whether it be DSD or PCM. I find that playing stereo SACDs, CDs, DVD-As or Blu-ray audio discs with Dirac does not appeal to me. I do not like using my subs and prefer to use the Reference Stereo mode for all two channel music playback. Whether someone can tell the difference between DSD and PCM is a discussion for another thread IMO. Emotiva goes to great lengths to promote the DSD playback capability of the XMC-1. Those that prefer to use DSD direct shouldn't have to explain why they prefer it or be told that using Dirac is the better alternative IMO. If one prefers to use DSD they should be able to do so without the unwanted "thumps". You are correct. It should work without thumping. But Keith asked a question about whether we hear a significant difference and we are just weighing in. Nobody is implying that you should not be able to listen to DSD direct. Many of us just prefer the large gains we get from Dirac over the very small gains from listening to DSD direct. I don't know that I would say they "go to great lengths" to promote DSD playback capability. Certainly not as much as they promote the benefits of Dirac. The do list it in the feature set and in the specs and it should work without thumping and as Keith mentioned they are looking into it. Are you still getting thumping with the 3.1 firmware, Bill? |
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Post by skippy1977 on Nov 12, 2015 15:15:32 GMT -5
The bottom line is there should be no "thumps" or any unwanted noise with any audio type whether it be DSD or PCM. I find that playing stereo SACDs, CDs, DVD-As or Blu-ray audio discs with Dirac does not appeal to me. I do not like using my subs and prefer to use the Reference Stereo mode for all two channel music playback. Whether someone can tell the difference between DSD and PCM is a discussion for another thread IMO. Emotiva goes to great lengths to promote the DSD playback capability of the XMC-1. Those that prefer to use DSD direct shouldn't have to explain why they prefer it or be told that using Dirac is the better alternative IMO. If one prefers to use DSD they should be able to do so without the unwanted "thumps". You are correct. It should work without thumping. But Keith asked a question about whether we hear a significant difference and we are just weighing in. Nobody is implying that you should not be able to listen to DSD direct. Many of us just prefer the large gains we get from Dirac over the very small gains from listening to DSD direct. I don't know that I would say they "go to great lengths" to promote DSD playback capability. Certainly not as much as they promote the benefits of Dirac. The do list it in the feature set and in the specs and it should work without thumping and as Keith mentioned they are looking into it. Are you still getting thumping with the 3.1 firmware, Bill? geebo, To be honest since updating to 3.1a I haven't checked for the thump. I'm almost afraid to. I use my Oppo 103 for multichannel music set to PCM and the 105D for two channel music set to DSD. I'm using Dirac for multichannel music and movies. I'm extremely happy with Dirac for multichannel use. I just don't care for it with two channel music. I feel that Emotiva does go to great lengths to promote the XMC-1's DSD capability. Direct from page 6 of the XMC-1 manual: True DSD Playback - The XMC-1 offers audiophile quality playback of DSD audio (when received via HDMI from an SACD or a DSD audio file), which bypasses all processing for the most accurate audio rendition possible.
So now that there are issues with the use of DSD it's no longer the most accurate audio rendition possible ;-). |
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cawgijoe
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Post by cawgijoe on Nov 12, 2015 15:23:54 GMT -5
Even though I've mentioned it here before, let me reiterate. I have a fairly new Oppo BDP-103. It's connected via HDMI2 from the Oppo to the XMC-1 and I can play DSD SACD discs without any noise or thumps.
Why some are having this problem with the same equipment, I don't know. It beats me.
As to sound quality, I haven't played much in DSD, but I like it and do notice a very pristine sound. It is not a huge improvement over PCM, but I can hear it and do like it.
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Post by geebo on Nov 12, 2015 15:38:22 GMT -5
You are correct. It should work without thumping. But Keith asked a question about whether we hear a significant difference and we are just weighing in. Nobody is implying that you should not be able to listen to DSD direct. Many of us just prefer the large gains we get from Dirac over the very small gains from listening to DSD direct. I don't know that I would say they "go to great lengths" to promote DSD playback capability. Certainly not as much as they promote the benefits of Dirac. The do list it in the feature set and in the specs and it should work without thumping and as Keith mentioned they are looking into it. Are you still getting thumping with the 3.1 firmware, Bill? geebo, To be honest since updating to 3.1a I haven't checked for the thump. I'm almost afraid to. I use my Oppo 103 for multichannel music set to PCM and the 105D for two channel music set to DSD. I'm using Dirac for multichannel music and movies. I'm extremely happy with Dirac for multichannel use. I just don't care for it with two channel music. I feel that Emotiva does go to great lengths to promote the XMC-1's DSD capability. Direct from page 6 of the XMC-1 manual: True DSD Playback - The XMC-1 offers audiophile quality playback of DSD audio (when received via HDMI from an SACD or a DSD audio file), which bypasses all processing for the most accurate audio rendition possible.
So now that there are issues with the use of DSD it's no longer the most accurate audio rendition possible ;-).Maybe you should try it again. Most everyone that could reproduce the issue (myself included) no longer experience it with 3.1. And a user over at AVS wrote this: "I can't read Russian so I haven't a clue as to what the issue could be. You might not be interested in DSD but I am and so are many others be it SACDs or DSD downloads. The DSD thump has been fixed with 3.1 for me and it has for many others. If you're not happy with the XMC-1, the latest FW or Emotiva in general why not sell the XMC-1 and buy something else. It's what I'd do as it's not worth owning any audio component if it doesn't work well in ones system." |
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