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Post by sycraft on Jan 5, 2016 18:36:32 GMT -5
It's not exactly silly - but that depends on how you look at it. It's silly because it doesn't stop piracy but it does screw with legit uses. The amount of times I've encountered flickering, dropouts, and coloured static in classroom/conference room presentation systems and it has traced back to issues with HDCP handshake is far too many. Likewise, my computer won't play Blu-rays, despite having everything HDCP protected, because of the way I have to have the GPU split off the video to run my audio on HDMI and monitor on DisplayPort. Never mind just wanting to record something for later viewing (something which the courts have ruled to be explicitly legal). If they want to have some simple technology to prevent something "casual" then fine, I can live with something like SCMS for S/PDIF I guess. However going nuts with the encryption is silly. It doesn't help, and it cannot help, prevent piracy. The issue is simply that the device does have the decryption key, it has to for it to work, and people can and will attack that and get the key. I mean look at Blu-ray: Two different systems, AACS and BD-J, which are both very complex and were supposed to be "secure for more than 20 years", both of which are thoroughly bypassed. They haven't been cracked in the cryptographic sense, but it doesn't matter because they can be bypassed in various ways and there's software out there which does it no problem. There is no need for HDCP 2.2, it just makes things more difficult for compatibility. The original HDCP already works to keep anyone casual from doing anything and the pirates have no problem getting around it in other ways. |
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Post by millst on Jan 6, 2016 2:37:03 GMT -5
I think people are a little too quick to blame HDCP for HDMI problems. I'm not a fan of HDCP, but it won't cause sparkles, flickering, or bad image quality. It's a go or no-go check. We still have these problems on unencrypted links. It's just the nature of the protocol. SPDIF, component, etc. don't push enough data to support TrueHD, 4K, and all the other high quality formats.
-tm
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Post by sycraft on Jan 6, 2016 15:02:59 GMT -5
It has a specific set of problems it causes and you get real good at noticing them when you encounter them a lot. It is to the point that most A/V distribution/conference units can disable HDCP on a per port, or entire unit basis just because of the issues it has. We have started just turning it off in our installs unless there's a reason for it because we have far less issues if we do.
It doesn't cause sparkles, but it causes dropouts and static. The static is when there's a negotiation problem and you see the raw encrypted stream. It is, unsurprisingly, random coloured noise. Dropouts happen when you have a successful link, but then something thinks there might be an issue (the devices are supposed to look if they think you are splitting off the signal or the like) and drop the link. It's easy to confirm it as HDCP problems when you disable it, and then it all stops (computers will use HDCP when available but do not require it).
Also HDCP prevents you from using some other formats, like HD-SDI, which are useful in long-distance distribution.
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Post by millst on Jan 6, 2016 16:24:30 GMT -5
Yeah, not trying to say HDCP is problem free. My comments aren't solely directed towards your comment either. I see lots of people all over blaming all their problems on HDCP. Just pointing out that there's more to it than that.
I'm really not a big fan of the entire HDMI design/implementation. Audio/video connections seemed more reliable before it came out. Price of progress unfortunately. Copy protection existed before HDMI and isn't going anywhere either. In my experience, HDMI has become more robust and I'm hoping things won't take a step back.
-tm
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KeithL
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Post by KeithL on Jan 6, 2016 17:03:49 GMT -5
HDCP itself shouldn't cause problems; the problems arise when something goes wrong. Unfortunately, one of the biggest reasons things go wrong is that technology moves so fast. For a year before the standard became finalized, TV and AVR manufacturers were selling "HDMI ready" products, and TVs and projectors with DVI inputs "which you could connect to an HDMI output with just an adapter". However, when the standard actually went into effect, it turned out that not all of them were quite as ready for HDMI as they claimed. Some DVI inputs supported HDMI perfectly, while others didn't support HDCP at all, or supported it, but not very well. Whether you blame HDMI for HDCP woes is almost a matter of philosophy - after all, while they are separate things, it is HDMI that has forced us to deal with HDCP. Now, for the past year or so, they've been selling "HDMI 2.0 ready" stuff. The other thing that many people don't realize is that USING HDCP is NOT a requirement of HDMI itself. (The various HDMI standards require that devices support HDCP, but it doesn't have to be used.) I can easily produce a personal video in HD, which can be played via HDMI WITHOUT HDCP. The requirement resides in the content. The Blu-Ray disc standard specifies that all Blu-Ray disc content will be configured so as to require HDCP copy protection. Likewise, you can send 4k content between two devices that don't support HDCP 2.2 (and the XMC-1 can pass 4k / 60 content just fine). You might, for example, get this 4k content from the output of an upsampling Blu-Ray player. However, the standard for the new 4k Blu-Ray DISCS specifies that the content must be configured to require a connection with HDCP 2.2 copy protection. Likewise, there is nothing that would prevent a game console from providing an unprotected 4k video output, but the content provided by a particular application - like NetFlix 4k - may require it. (But it's still a fair claim that, while HDCP only provides benefit to the content producers, it does often result in extra headaches for the end user.) I think people are a little too quick to blame HDCP for HDMI problems. I'm not a fan of HDCP, but it won't cause sparkles, flickering, or bad image quality. It's a go or no-go check. We still have these problems on unencrypted links. It's just the nature of the protocol. SPDIF, component, etc. don't push enough data to support TrueHD, 4K, and all the other high quality formats. -tm |
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Post by LuisV on Jan 6, 2016 17:24:36 GMT -5
Any pictures of the new board?
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Post by panda88 on Jan 7, 2016 1:18:56 GMT -5
HDCP itself shouldn't cause problems; the problems arise when something goes wrong. Likewise, you can send 4k content between two devices that don't support HDCP 2.2 ( and the XMC-1 can pass 4k / 60 content just fine). You might, for example, get this 4k content from the output of an upsampling Blu-Ray player. However, the standard for the new 4k Blu-Ray DISCS specifies that the content must be configured to require a connection with HDCP 2.2 copy protection. Likewise, there is nothing that would prevent a game console from providing an unprotected 4k video output, but the content provided by a particular application - like NetFlix 4k - may require it. So using a HDfury with existing XMC-1 would support two HDCP2.2 HDMI sources without needing the upgrade card - (under the assumption it really works like they says/claim - essentially stripping the HDCP requirement requested from the source) |
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LCSeminole
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Post by LCSeminole on Jan 7, 2016 17:50:20 GMT -5
This picture was posted in our Tech Talk section of the Lounge in the CES 2016 thread by Axis. Originally found on the Emotiva Facebook page. Showing off our new HDMI 2.0 HDCP 2.2 XMC-1 board!  |
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Post by cawgijoe on Jan 8, 2016 13:49:48 GMT -5
HDCP itself shouldn't cause problems; the problems arise when something goes wrong. Likewise, you can send 4k content between two devices that don't support HDCP 2.2 ( and the XMC-1 can pass 4k / 60 content just fine). You might, for example, get this 4k content from the output of an upsampling Blu-Ray player. However, the standard for the new 4k Blu-Ray DISCS specifies that the content must be configured to require a connection with HDCP 2.2 copy protection. Likewise, there is nothing that would prevent a game console from providing an unprotected 4k video output, but the content provided by a particular application - like NetFlix 4k - may require it. So using a HDfury with existing XMC-1 would support two HDCP2.2 HDMI sources without needing the upgrade card - (under the assumption it really works like they says/claim - essentially stripping the HDCP requirement requested from the source) Which HDfury unit would work best? They have a bunch. |
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Post by cawgijoe on Jan 8, 2016 14:01:58 GMT -5
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Post by 2muchht on Jan 11, 2016 17:59:28 GMT -5
...the XMC-1 can pass 4k / 60 content just fine... That's good to know, but unfortunately it does NOT tell the full story. Yes, even the current HDMI 1.4 board can pass 2160/60p, but one presumes that given the Analog Devices chip used it can ONLY to 8-bit color and 4:2:0 color sampling. That is all you can get with a 300MHz design. Can someone please resolve this once and for all: Is the new HDMI board 300MHz, or 600MHz? I'm hoping that it is latter, as that means we will be able to do 10-bit or 12-bit color. At least 10-bit color depth is mandatory for any of the new HDR standards, including both HDR-10 and Dolby Vision. The 600MHz clock speed, along with the 18 Gbps bandwidth gives you the ability to also jump up up 4:2:2/12-bit or 4:4:4/8-bit. Yes, 4:4:4 is still a dream, but 10-bit color is NOT. The 600MHz capability is really going to be common-place with the likes of UltraHD Blu-ray, and you can pre-order that NOW for delivery this spring. Same for the HDR content coming from a few of the streaming services that some of us will use a Roku 4 or the INCREDIBLE Dish 16 tuner DVR that will record 4 simultaneous 4K/UHD streams with. Before investing in an XMC-1 it would be nice to know this. Would also be helpful to know what the capability of the HDMI inputs on the ESP-1 will be. |
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Post by wizardofoz on Jan 11, 2016 20:29:32 GMT -5
And the xmr-1 also...that's 'supposed' to be out this year too...don't shoot me
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bootman
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Post by bootman on Jan 11, 2016 21:14:17 GMT -5
HDCP itself shouldn't cause problems; the problems arise when something goes wrong. Likewise, you can send 4k content between two devices that don't support HDCP 2.2 ( and the XMC-1 can pass 4k / 60 content just fine). You might, for example, get this 4k content from the output of an upsampling Blu-Ray player. However, the standard for the new 4k Blu-Ray DISCS specifies that the content must be configured to require a connection with HDCP 2.2 copy protection. Likewise, there is nothing that would prevent a game console from providing an unprotected 4k video output, but the content provided by a particular application - like NetFlix 4k - may require it. So using a HDfury with existing XMC-1 would support two HDCP2.2 HDMI sources without needing the upgrade card - (under the assumption it really works like they says/claim - essentially stripping the HDCP requirement requested from the source) Try it. If it works you saved $100. If it doesn't do you get your money back? |
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Post by burnchar on Jan 13, 2016 13:44:07 GMT -5
No one really knows what Emotiva's cost is, but $300 for a custom board in a low-volume, high-end audio product seems cheap to me, and I work in the industry.
What do we actually know?
1) Emotiva promised that the XMC-1 would be upgradeable. This proves that it is (once it is actually available)
2) $300 is much less than $1999 - $2499, the cost of a new unit (assuming the price remains after upgrade)
3) Almost all receivers and pre-amps are non-upgradeable except for firmware and plug-in accessories.
Perhaps everyone had a different idea of what the cost might be. I predicted $400-$500 myself.
I do not yet have an XMC-1, but if the price does not go up, I plan to get one once upgraded units are shipped and once forum posts widely agree that it works perfectly and supports 4:4:4 10-bit color @60fps.
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nuts
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Post by nuts on Jan 13, 2016 16:00:56 GMT -5
UHD 4:4:4 10bit @60fps will not work anyway, because its not supported by hdmi 2.0a.
Thats not emotivas fault.
2muchht was asking for 300/600 mhz because of 10bit output (important for UHD content) and it's strange that there is no answer.
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Post by burnchar on Jan 13, 2016 16:12:04 GMT -5
UHD 4:4:4 10bit @60fps will not work anyway, because its not supported by hdmi 2.0a. Thats not emotivas fault. 2muchht was asking for 300/600 mhz because of 10bit output (important for UHD content) and it's strange that there is no answer. I didn't realize that.  I guess at 4K, 4:2:0 color will be less noticeable than it is at 1080, but it was very noticeable at 1080. Reds in particular. I'll have to omit the 4:4:4 requirement, then. At least it will work at 1080P, for all those oceans of 4:4:4 content available.  |
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bootman
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Post by bootman on Jan 13, 2016 16:24:02 GMT -5
UHD 4:4:4 10bit @60fps will not work anyway, because its not supported by hdmi 2.0a. Thats not emotivas fault. 2muchht was asking for 300/600 mhz because of 10bit output (important for UHD content) and it's strange that there is no answer. I didn't realize that. I guess at 4K, 4:2:0 color will be less noticeable than it is at 1080, but it was very noticeable at 1080. Reds in particular. I'll have to omit the 4:4:4 requirement, then. At least it will work at 1080P, for all those oceans of 4:4:4 content available. What current Blurays are 4:4:4? I thought they were all 4:2:0? |
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Post by burnchar on Jan 13, 2016 16:26:21 GMT -5
I thought they were all 4:2:0? None. I was joking about the availability of such video because it is nearly impossible to find. You'd pretty much need the raw movie sources or to record your own with high-end equipment. |
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Post by 2muchht on Jan 13, 2016 16:54:09 GMT -5
Just to be clear:
* Yes, those who have said that there is unlikely to be 4:4:4 content are correct on a number of levels. Yes, the RAW files output from the likes of an F65, Arri Alexa, Red Dragon and similar are capable of being used with 4:4:4, but that won't be done for practical reasons. Indeed, the F65 is apparently capable of shooting 8K, but we won't see any of that outside of demos shot this summer in Rio and similar places.
* The real reason for 600MHz/18Gbps is for 10-bit and 12-bit color. Once you are at 60p you need the greater clock speed and bandwidth than "300MHz" chips such as the ADI one in the current XMC-1 design can deliver.
It shouldn't be that difficult to simply let us know what the specs are.
In addition, it is curious to note that a few posts back someone had a shot of what was purported to be the "new board". Curious to see that it has "Jade Design" screened on the PCB. Given the attention given to the US-based manufacturing for the XMC, and CORRECTLY SO, does that mean that the new HDMI board is made in China rather than the US? At the end of the day it doesn't make any difference given that it is clearly going to perform well and where it is made shouldn't be any more of an issue than the cost of the board. Those are not our concern.
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nuts
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Post by nuts on Jan 13, 2016 17:46:13 GMT -5
Of course this board is made in China. lol
There is nothing wrong about it, if design and development is done well.
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