XMC pop/click on song change or digital silence (Part 2)

[foggy1956]

Jan 24, 2016 16:45:12 GMT -5 igorzep said:

Jan 24, 2016 15:12:27 GMT -5 minthral said:

Thanks for the info, but I'm not sure if what Keith states is the complete problem.

Here is his more detailed response about the digital silence problem: emotivalounge.proboards.com/post/761039/thread

3) We have confirmed that strings of digital zeros inside otherwise normal audio tracks sometimes cause the XMC-1 to digitally mute. While this is not especially unusual behavior, and in fact most DAC chips have an option to do it, we would prefer that the XMC-1 not do it - because, when this happens, it may also bite off a few milliseconds of music. We have confirmed that the XMC-1's overall muting isn't the cause. We have also confirmed that the DACs in the XMC_1 aren't doing it (that function is disabled in our DACs). Therefore, we have concluded that this is probably being caused by the code in one of the DSPs - which is hard-coded into the DSP itself. Since most recordings use dithering, very few song tracks actually have stretches of digital zeros which would trigger this behavior, and, of those, most probably have a short lead-up to the audio after the silent space such that the muting is fully off before the music starts again. This means that it only happens with a few tracks, and, to put it bluntly, only one or two people have noticed it at all. (Unfortunately, since it seems to originate with the DSP code, which we don't have access to change, it seems unlikely that we will be able to resolve this.)

So, it it true that they think the problem is too rare. And it is really great suggestion to call them. The more people made them aware this is an issue for them, the more chances they will re-evaluate the importance and make appropriate actions (either find a solution themselves or use their forces to push their chip/dsp code provider).

As Keith stated, with only 1 or 2 people having noticed this at all, wouldn't Emotiva replace those units immediately as defective if for no other reason than to protect their reputation?

[chicagorspec]

Reading the posts on this topic makes me very glad that, despite seeing some folks claim their XMC-1 was equal to or even superior to the XSP-1 for two channel music, I have stuck to this point with the XSP. This issue is not even close to worth dealing with and being repeatedly annoyed by when trying to enjoy to music in order to (maybe) capture some slight improvement that may or may not be there. Good luck to those of you experiencing the issue that you eventually get some resolution.

[audiosyndrome]

I do not have this problem with my ATV Gen3 when using Air Play. I use the ATV optical out to stream my iTunes Music Library. I use the ATV HDMI out for any other content. Always flawless operation.

Russ

[minthral]

Jan 24, 2016 20:51:06 GMT -5 audiosyndrome said:

I do not have this problem with my ATV Gen3 when using Air Play. I use the ATV optical out to stream my iTunes Music Library. I use the ATV HDMI out for any other content. Always flawless operation.

Russ    

Is Dirac enabled? Please confirm you hear zero pop/clicks by simply navigating the start screen icons and zero pop/clicks on song changes?

I have gen2 Apple TV that is jailbroken for Kodi/XBMC. I could try optical or even a gen3/4 to see if its better. Otherwise I'm expecting there must be something wrong with my setup or unit if its not happening to others.

I don't think its fair to dismiss the XMC due to this quirk...its really not that big of deal and probably sounds worse reading about it. I wouldn't make your decision to purchase solely on this. 

[igorzep]

Jan 24, 2016 19:35:35 GMT -5 minthral said:

So that's useful info. Seems the problem is hardcoded into the DSP and that can't be changed via firmware upgrade?

It is a suspect that it is hardcoded into the DSP. But even if it is it usually means the code is inside the chip vendor supplied library. The Emotiva have no ability to change this code themselves, but it is most probably part of the firmware, so, if new version of core library is used then it could still be possible to upgrade.

Jan 24, 2016 19:35:35 GMT -5 minthral said:

I'm sure that many are accustomed to using an Apple TV to AirPlay content and would find the weird pop/click on the start screen obvious and troubling...

Most users turn off audio feedback on such devices very soon after first use. On XBMC, for example, when it is turned on I simply hear nothing instead of audio feedback in 99% of the cases and only hear ticks together with muting artefacts if I scroll really a lot and very fast. So, you could live a lot of time don't even knowing there is some audio feedback from such device, depending on what is configured as feedback sound.

[igorzep]

Jan 24, 2016 20:32:51 GMT -5 foggy1956 said:

As Keith stated, with only 1 or 2 people having noticed this at all, wouldn't Emotiva replace those units immediately as defective if for no other reason than to protect their reputation?

I am sure they would replace them if they had something to replace to. Keith had tested a number of XMC-1s they have from different batches, and all of them had the issue muting around digital silence in the stream.

[wilburthegoose]

My take - 99.9% of the time, the XMC-1 gives flawless and amazing audio performance. For one short millisecond I hear a click.

Personally, I couldn't care less because I'm so happy with the performance.

[Talley]

I have an audible clicking when changing songs and/or mostly using REW for test signals before the test begins as you pull up the menu to hit start measurement it clicks twice. Outside of that the XMC rocks.

[foggy1956]

Jan 25, 2016 7:13:59 GMT -5 igorzep said:

Jan 24, 2016 20:32:51 GMT -5 foggy1956 said:

As Keith stated, with only 1 or 2 people having noticed this at all, wouldn't Emotiva replace those units immediately as defective if for no other reason than to protect their reputation?

I am sure they would replace them if they had something to replace to. Keith had tested a number of XMC-1s they have from different batches, and all of them had the issue muting around digital silence in the stream.

Seems odd as the multitude of people here have stated their unit simply does not exhibit this behavior

[skippy1977]

I have the clicking/popping issue when using Dirac with my Oppo 103. What I think would be very useful is if those with this issue post their audio settings used with the sources that are causing the clicking/popping issue. geebo shared his setiings in the now locked thread that was discussing this issue. If everyone posts their pertinent settings then maybe as XMC-1 owners we can figure out what is going on. I will post my settings audio settings of my 103 shortly. Also FW versions used is important as well.

I find it interesting that when I called Emotiva they did not ask these questions. All they said was that they were aware of the issue and were working on it. They did say a solution to the clicking/popping issue did not look good.

[mick]

Jan 22, 2016 11:51:35 GMT -5 minthral said:

Every time a song starts or when it switches from silence to volume, I'm getting a pop/click sound...this is happening no matter what I try. Different sources and different settings. Similar sound to hitting mute and un-mute. 

Anyone know how to fix this? Or maybe something is wrong with mine? I don't get this using DC-1 Dac direct to amp. Never had this on my last receivers.

i did a search and seems maybe this is a firmware problem?

I have the clicking and pop from the left front and left surround only when changing channels on foxtel.

[doc1963]

For those who experience the "tics" (or "clicks", if you will, as I'm sure we're all describing the same thing) using the Dirac speaker preset, have you checked and/or re-balanced your speaker levels after running Dirac?

From my personal experience, I too have encountered the same behavior, but only when the source is my Oppo BDP-103 and "Dirac" is the speaker preset. I do not recall hearing odd noise from any other source (see my sig).

However, what I have found (in "my" situation) is that Dirac sets the levels way too high (by as much as 6dB) and you must go back and re-balance to re-achieve accurate reference levels (Setup > Speakers > Dirac > Levels). After doing so, those same "tics" are barely audible in my system. When using either of the "non-Dirac" presets, I do not experience any superfluous noise from any source.

IMHO, since Dirac must re-sample all incoming material to 48k for processing, I have to wonder "if" this is somehow a resulting artifact of the internal Dirac engine. Again, I'm just thinking out loud…

For those who listen to music and experience the "chopping off" of the first millisecond or two of a song, this is indeed caused by material that is mastered using "absolute" digital silence and how certain DSPs deal with it.

FWIW, the XMC-1 is not the first processor or AVR I've ever encountered that behaves this way and I sincerely doubt that there's anything they (Emotiva) can do about it. I don't know why any experienced engineer would master digital audio without the use of proper dithering, but therein lies the problem.

In the instances where I find a CD that is affected, what I have done is import it into Audacity or, now, Adobe Audition and export the WAV files with "dithering" applied. At this point, I can use those dithered WAVs to either re-burn an audio CD or re-export to FLAC for streaming.

Since I use JRiver on a dedicated music server (and immediately rip any new CD to FLAC anyway), I have found that the "easier" solution is to simply up-sample all 44.1k material to 88.2k (JRiver's DSP engine will apply "dithering") and voila, everything plays perfectly.

I'm sure that, for some, this won't extinguish the skepticism, but, for others, I hope this helps…..

[millst]

Deja-vu. This has been discussed to death. It's a known issue with the XMC-1. Emotiva has said they aren't going to fix it due to it being in that DSP. It doesn't happen to everybody, but let's not pretend it's only two people:

emotivalounge.proboards.com/thread/43082/popping-clicking-noises-dirac-preset

I only get them on the Dirac preset. Either you live with them or get rid of the XMC-1.

-tm

[Talley]

Jan 25, 2016 13:47:28 GMT -5 millst said:

Deja-vu. This has been discussed to death. It's a known issue with the XMC-1. Emotiva has said they aren't going to fix it due to it being in that DSP. It doesn't happen to everybody, but let's not pretend it's only two people:

emotivalounge.proboards.com/thread/43082/popping-clicking-noises-dirac-preset

I only get them on the Dirac preset. Either you live with them or get rid of the XMC-1.

-tm

I wasn't complaining.  I took it as a part of the package thing.  I heard it and first time I did I knew it was part of the process.  Doesn't affect anything and the XMC sounds great!

[foggy1956]

This occurs on my system using HDMI to jriver with Dirac engaged. Does not occur on other presets. I use jriver to resample all files to 48 khz so
Xmc is not having to do that chore

[amt]

Jan 25, 2016 13:47:28 GMT -5 millst said:

I only get them on the Dirac preset. Either you live with them or get rid of the XMC-1.

-tm

I get the pops/clicks without Dirac, when using AppleTV. The "pings" when navigating the OSD are heard as pops/clicks. This is on the latest firmware.

I agree with your "live with it or get rid of XMC-1", as I have no confidence at all that Emotiva will fix this. I wish I could have known about this problem before I purchased the XMC-1. Perhaps I can sell my XMC-1 without taking a loss. The Anthem AVM-60 is very tempting considering:

	AVM60	XMC-1
room correction	customizable at no extra cost 4 ARC profiles EQ up to 192KHz	costs $100 for custom only 1 Dirac profile EQ must be down-sampled to 48KHz
HDMI 2.0	all inputs/outputs	1 input/output,$300 extra, eventually more(?)
channels	11.2	7.2
Dolby Atmos	included	never going to happen

[mickseymour]

Jan 25, 2016 12:59:50 GMT -5 doc1963 said:

However, what I have found (in "my" situation) is that Dirac sets the levels way too high (by as much as 6dB) and you must go back and re-balance to re-achieve accurate reference levels (Setup > Speakers > Dirac > Levels). After doing so, those same "tics" are barely audible in my system. When using either of the "non-Dirac" presets, I do not experience any superfluous noise from any source.

IMHO, since Dirac must re-sample all incoming material to 48k for processing, I have to wonder "if" this is somehow a resulting artifact of the internal Dirac engine. Again, I'm just thinking out loud…

I've been thinking the same thing but I've no way to prove it save for digging into REW on a non-Dirac preset.

I didn't rebalance my speakers after the Dirac run but I did find that levels on all speakers were approximately 5db higher. I would usually set the volume at -13db but on some material after Dirac my ears started to bleed. Now I set it to -18db which sounds as loud as it used to pre-Dirac and the pops and clicks between Blu-ray/DVD menus and logos, whilst still there, are quieter.

[hemster]

Jan 26, 2016 11:38:24 GMT -5 amt said:

Jan 25, 2016 13:47:28 GMT -5 millst said:

I only get them on the Dirac preset. Either you live with them or get rid of the XMC-1.

-tm

I get the pops/clicks without Dirac, when using AppleTV. The "pings" when navigating the OSD are heard as pops/clicks. This is on the latest firmware.

I agree with your "live with it or get rid of XMC-1", as I have no confidence at all that Emotiva will fix this. I wish I could have known about this problem before I purchased the XMC-1. Perhaps I can sell my XMC-1 without taking a loss. The Anthem AVM-60 is very tempting considering:

	AVM60	XMC-1
room correction	customizable at no extra cost 4 ARC profiles EQ up to 192KHz	costs $100 for custom only 1 Dirac profile EQ must be down-sampled to 48KHz
HDMI 2.0	all inputs/outputs	1 input/output,$300 extra, eventually more(?)
channels	11.2	7.2
Dolby Atmos	included	never going to happen

"never" definitely suggests a certain... certainty.  Never say never.  Wait, that should be the next Bond movie!  

[skippy1977]

Jan 25, 2016 12:59:50 GMT -5 doc1963 said:

For those who experience the "tics" (or "clicks", if you will, as I'm sure we're all describing the same thing) using the Dirac speaker preset, have you checked and/or re-balanced your speaker levels after running Dirac?

From my personal experience, I too have encountered the same behavior, but only when the source is my Oppo BDP-103 and "Dirac" is the speaker preset. I do not recall hearing odd noise from any other source (see my sig).

However, what I have found (in "my" situation) is that Dirac sets the levels way too high (by as much as 6dB) and you must go back and re-balance to re-achieve accurate reference levels (Setup > Speakers > Dirac > Levels). After doing so, those same "tics" are barely audible in my system. When using either of the "non-Dirac" presets, I do not experience any superfluous noise from any source.

IMHO, since Dirac must re-sample all incoming material to 48k for processing, I have to wonder "if" this is somehow a resulting artifact of the internal Dirac engine. Again, I'm just thinking out loud…

For those who listen to music and experience the "chopping off" of the first millisecond or two of a song, this is indeed caused by material that is mastered using "absolute" digital silence and how certain DSPs deal with it.

FWIW, the XMC-1 is not the first processor or AVR I've ever encountered that behaves this way and I sincerely doubt that there's anything they (Emotiva) can do about it. I don't know why any experienced engineer would master digital audio without the use of proper dithering, but therein lies the problem.

In the instances where I find a CD that is affected, what I have done is import it into Audacity or, now, Adobe Audition and export the WAV files with "dithering" applied. At this point, I can use those dithered WAVs to either re-burn an audio CD or re-export to FLAC for streaming.

Since I use JRiver on a dedicated music server (and immediately rip any new CD to FLAC anyway), I have found that the "easier" solution is to simply up-sample all 44.1k material to 88.2k (JRiver's DSP engine will apply "dithering") and voila, everything plays perfectly.

I'm sure that, for some, this won't extinguish the skepticism, but, for others, I hope this helps…..

I'm not finding that the speaker level volumes with the Dirac preset matter much as to the loudness of the clicks/pops. I also get the same clicks/pops when accessing Dirac to do a calibration or change saved projects. Same when the Dirac calibration is done loading and closes. That is with the Oppo 103 off so the 103 is not part of the issue there.

I've also owned AVRs/prepros in the past that had clicking/popping issues. But it's been a number of years that I've owned any that have the issue. To state that it's an issue that can't be fixed and to "just deal with it" doesn't cut it with me. It will be interesting to see if the new Arcam AVRs that will have Dirac will also have the same clicking/popping issue.

[Deleted]

Jan 26, 2016 11:38:24 GMT -5 amt said:

Jan 25, 2016 13:47:28 GMT -5 millst said:

I only get them on the Dirac preset. Either you live with them or get rid of the XMC-1.

-tm

I get the pops/clicks without Dirac, when using AppleTV. The "pings" when navigating the OSD are heard as pops/clicks. This is on the latest firmware.

I agree with your "live with it or get rid of XMC-1", as I have no confidence at all that Emotiva will fix this. I wish I could have known about this problem before I purchased the XMC-1. Perhaps I can sell my XMC-1 without taking a loss. The Anthem AVM-60 is very tempting considering:

	AVM60	XMC-1
room correction	customizable at no extra cost 4 ARC profiles EQ up to 192KHz	costs $100 for custom only 1 Dirac profile EQ must be down-sampled to 48KHz
HDMI 2.0	all inputs/outputs	1 input/output,$300 extra, eventually more(?)
channels	11.2	7.2
Dolby Atmos	included	never going to happen

And on this note... someone please buy my xmc.