XMC pop/click on song change or digital silence (Part 2)

[foggy1956]

Jan 26, 2016 12:07:45 GMT -5 hemster said:

Jan 26, 2016 11:38:24 GMT -5 amt said:

I get the pops/clicks without Dirac, when using AppleTV. The "pings" when navigating the OSD are heard as pops/clicks. This is on the latest firmware.

I agree with your "live with it or get rid of XMC-1", as I have no confidence at all that Emotiva will fix this. I wish I could have known about this problem before I purchased the XMC-1. Perhaps I can sell my XMC-1 without taking a loss. The Anthem AVM-60 is very tempting considering:

	AVM60	XMC-1
room correction	customizable at no extra cost 4 ARC profiles EQ up to 192KHz	costs $100 for custom only 1 Dirac profile EQ must be down-sampled to 48KHz
HDMI 2.0	all inputs/outputs	1 input/output,$300 extra, eventually more(?)
channels	11.2	7.2
Dolby Atmos	included	never going to happen

"never" definitely suggests a certain... certainty.  Never say never.  Wait, that should be the next Bond movie!  

I don't see where he said never?

[geebo]

Jan 26, 2016 12:34:33 GMT -5 foggy1956 said:

Jan 26, 2016 12:07:45 GMT -5 hemster said:

"never" definitely suggests a certain... certainty.  Never say never.  Wait, that should be the next Bond movie!  

I don't see where he said never?

	AVM60	XMC-1
room correction	customizable at no extra cost 4 ARC profiles EQ up to 192KHz	costs $100 for custom only 1 Dirac profile EQ must be down-sampled to 48KHz
HDMI 2.0	all inputs/outputs	1 input/output,$300 extra, eventually more(?)
channels	11.2	7.2
Dolby Atmos	included	never going to happen

[Bonzo]

Well wow, I'd hadn't seen the new Anthem until now. Nice!

With a very quick once over without doing any homework, here's what I see VS XMC-1:

UPs
- Gain Atmos & DTS-X
- 11.2.4 capability
- HDMI 2.0 throughout
- I'd be willing to bet that this Anthem (and the Marantz) will have less little "glitches" and the like, and may even work more reliably over the course of their lives. Just a gut feeling, no proof here.
- Costs WAY less than it's predecessor. Now affordable by comparison.
- Much better looking that it's predecessors which I always hated.

EVENs
- I'd bet that both these units both sound fantastic, but that is pure conjecture at this point.
- Room correction has more profiles, but how does ARC compare with Dirac. I've heard nothing but good things about both. Both seems to have their strong suites.
- Same amount of 2 channel unbalanced analog inputs.
- Looks are rather ho-hum. I much preferred the prototype XMC-1 with the silver knobs etc.

DOWNs
- Costs more
- Loose 7.1 unbalanced outputs (which can currently be used to bi-amp, and MIGHT eventually be a way for Emotiva to get the height channels into the XMC-1)
- Loose 7.1 analog inputs
- Loose 1 set of balanced XLR inputs
- Loose 1 HDMI input
- Loose 1 Coax digital input
- Loose Coax digital output (although it does still have 1 Toslink output!,something that is a major FAIL on the Marantz for me)
- Loose 3 trigger outputs
- Don't like a single button toggle as an input selector on front, much prefer XMC-1 direct input, or for better looks, the Marantz rotary wheel.

I'm sure I missed several things but that's what I've got for now.

[foggy1956]

Jan 26, 2016 12:55:34 GMT -5 geebo said:

Jan 26, 2016 12:34:33 GMT -5 foggy1956 said:

I don't see where he said never?

	AVM60	XMC-1
room correction	customizable at no extra cost 4 ARC profiles EQ up to 192KHz	costs $100 for custom only 1 Dirac profile EQ must be down-sampled to 48KHz
HDMI 2.0	all inputs/outputs	1 input/output,$300 extra, eventually more(?)
channels	11.2	7.2
Dolby Atmos	included	never going to happen

my bad

[millst]

If one doesn't need XLR outs, there is also the MRX710. You get amps (it's a receiver) and it costs the same as the XMC-1, but lose sound quality. The latter is theoretical at this point. I know I've seen some people up in arms that Anthem is watering down their pre-pro line, assuming that the AVM60 is just an MRX with the amps stripped out and different connectors.

-tm

[Gary Cook]

Jan 22, 2016 11:51:35 GMT -5 minthral said:

I don't get this using DC-1 Dac direct to amp.

What connections are you using? If you are using HDMI as the input from the source to the XMC-1 then that's the difference (the DC-1 doesn't have HDMI).

Cheers
Gary

[Gary Cook]

Jan 25, 2016 11:05:24 GMT -5 skippy1977 said:

I have the clicking/popping issue when using Dirac with my Oppo 103.

Using the Oppo to play what, CD's, DVD's, BD's, originals or ripped copies, what format lossless or lossy?

Cheers
Gary

[Gary Cook]

Seriously guys, to help resolve an issue such as this it's vitally important to provide the details, the finest details. I had a popping and clicking issue with an UMC-1 and a UMC-200, but only with the cable box when connected via HDMI switching between SD and HD content. No such problem when connected via optical for audio (and HDMI for video) and no problem with any other source.

I used the optical connection until a new cable box fixed the issue. So was the problem the UMC-1 / UMC-200 or the cable box? My view is that it was neither, just stupid HDCP handshaking issues.

Cheers
Gary

[amt]

The details have been gone over and over for months. Emotiva knows how to reproduce it. They just apparently can not fix it.

[millst]

Yeah, there are three pages of details (sources, modes, inputs, etc.) in the thread I linked. Nobody has ever found a common link. Plus, Emotiva made the DSP comment. They said they will always be trying to improve, but it will never be perfect.

-tm

[doc1963]

I've always admired Anthem products, but I see how they've managed to lower their price point. The back of the new AVM 60 states "Made in Vietnam". I hadn't realized they've started manufacturing outside of Canada.

It does look like the XMC-1 will indeed have some formidable competition in its price range.....

[amt]

All of Anthem's receiver line has always been made outside Canada.

One thing I want to clarify about ARC: you do not have full control over the target curve. You do have a lot of controls, including "room gain" which alters the low frequency in the target curve. They also do not EQ above 5Khz, but that is by design, as many (not just Anthem) feel that EQ'ing above that range is not practical or useful. However, one very cool feature is the live testing, where you can move speakers/treatments around while the test is running and get updates on the screen as you do this. This allows very quick testing of different placement to tame room response questions. You also have 4 presets, so you can use different ARC corrections for example, music only, movies, 7.1, 7.1.4, or in my case a completely different set of speakers in an adjacent room.

I am still on the fence regarding a switch. I would suspect the quality of components is better on the XMC-1, but that is a total guess. Honestly as long as the analog section is great on the Anthem, it should sound just as "pure" or great as the XMC-1. There's also the issue that all Dirac audio must be down-sampled to 48KHz, so pretty much all of your hi-res music is being down-sampled.

[millst]

I'd like to see a Secrets review of one of their new releases. I doubt the analog section will be as good. Their HDMI measurements on the XMC-1 and Datasat RS20i were a toss up. Obviously, the Datasat gives you a lot more feature-wise, though. It's straight analog section is better, too. I don't even have any analog sources anymore so that's a don't care for me.

-tm

[Deleted]

Jan 27, 2016 10:36:12 GMT -5 amt said:

All of Anthem's receiver line has always been made outside Canada.

One thing I want to clarify about ARC: you do not have full control over the target curve. You do have a lot of controls, including "room gain" which alters the low frequency in the target curve. They also do not EQ above 5Khz, but that is by design, as many (not just Anthem) feel that EQ'ing above that range is not practical or useful. However, one very cool feature is the live testing, where you can move speakers/treatments around while the test is running and get updates on the screen as you do this. This allows very quick testing of different placement to tame room response questions. You also have 4 presets, so you can use different ARC corrections for example, music only, movies, 7.1, 7.1.4, or in my case a completely different set of speakers in an adjacent room.

I am still on the fence regarding a switch. I would suspect the quality of components is better on the XMC-1, but that is a total guess. Honestly as long as the analog section is great on the Anthem, it should sound just as "pure" or great as the XMC-1. There's also the issue that all Dirac audio must be down-sampled to 48KHz, so pretty much all of your hi-res music is being down-sampled.

Dirac does very little to nothing above 5kHz as well..as measured with rew before and after Dirac. It took a 9db (9db under zero) cut in the dirac target curve to see a 2db difference in the rew measurements. However I've done comparisons of Dirac and Arc. Dirac comes closer to its predicted after measurements. From 200Hz down to 10Hz. As measured before and after with rew. I would really like to have some hands on with the arc implementation in the avm60. They've made a few changes in the past couple years. And this iteration of arc is supposed to be the most advanced so far..

[amt]

Yes, a review would be great. I don't have analog either, so HDMI -> pre-out is all I am concerned about regarding SQ

[doc1963]

Jan 27, 2016 10:36:12 GMT -5 amt said:

All of Anthem's receiver line has always been made outside Canada.

Thanks, I didn't know that. I had always thought Anthem manufactured "all" of their products in Canada. "Vietnam" struck me as being a bit odd, but according to Audioholics, this new facility is "state of the art".

[Lsc]

Anthem definitely looks very good on paper. Granted , I'm in the UFL and paid $1520 for my XMC-1 so the Anthem is double the cost of my XMC-1.

2 channel sound quality is where some a/b testing would be of great service. The XMC-1 for all practical purposes is as good a pre/pro as you need for most folks - at least for me.

After I dialed in the sub vs rerunning Dirac (something just sounded slightly off), I couldn't stop listening to the awesome 2 channel sound for 2 hours+. Can the Anthem give you this level of sound quality?

Well, for me to replace the XMC-1, it needs to or else it'll be unlistenable to me...can't go backwards in sound quality unless you are Andrew R .

So, time will tell...

[igorzep]

Jan 25, 2016 12:59:50 GMT -5 doc1963 said:

I don't know why any experienced engineer would master digital audio without the use of proper dithering, but therein lies the problem.

While I agree with your thinking in some way and agree that dithering of at least 2LMB (TPDF) must be used on any audio content, I know a lot of reasons for digital zero strings to be present in the audio stream. After all the non-dithered areas doesn't really contain any sound, so there is no reason to dither it unless this silence is part of a single continuous event that is recorded, but recorded silence is never absolute, so there is simply no possibility for that to happen. So, while I agree, that dithering whole-disc at the end of mastering it in high-resolution is a preferred way there could be a reasons not to do it, for example if the disc is composed from several pre-mastered pieces without wanting to touch them more, preserving the original quality (that is well dithered per-piece already). There are also synthesized sounds composed from pre-recorded samples as with menu navigation audio-feedback, games, etc. So, the thing is - this is valid contend and it practically exists, so, rephrasing you - I don't know why any experienced engineer would code the processing so that it distorts given such valid and trivial content.

Jan 25, 2016 12:59:50 GMT -5 doc1963 said:

In the instances where I find a CD that is affected, what I have done is import it into Audacity or, now, Adobe Audition and export the WAV files with "dithering" applied. At this point, I can use those dithered WAVs to either re-burn an audio CD or re-export to FLAC for streaming.

While this is kind of workarounds the problem with XMC-1 and actually doesn't fix the problem with the content in case if reason for those zeroes is lack of dithering in the mastering. It only adds additional bit of noise to the recording, meaning - makes it worse. While this 'worsening' might be negligible it is still there (and given 16 bit resolution - it is not quite negligible actually or else different noise shaping schemes would not be invented).

Jan 25, 2016 12:59:50 GMT -5 doc1963 said:

Since I use JRiver on a dedicated music server (and immediately rip any new CD to FLAC anyway), I have found that the "easier" solution is to simply up-sample all 44.1k material to 88.2k (JRiver's DSP engine will apply "dithering") and voila, everything plays perfectly.

Yes, it kind of works if your source is a PC, but started to work very recently, the price I've paid for this is to be hard-banned from their support forums (includes reading them). If I wouldn't raise the problem with the way they dither a year ago, no one would even believe it can be wrong, except the XMC-1 owners... that would get no help from JRiver's dithering that being 1LSB in amplitude would dither digital silence back to exactly the same digital silence).

Jan 25, 2016 12:59:50 GMT -5 doc1963 said:

I'm sure that, for some, this won't extinguish the skepticism, but, for others, I hope this helps…..

Unfortunately it won't help with any hardware player that honestly pass content as it is with no processing applied (after all I bought the XMC-1 to do the processing and to be independent of a PC - if all would be possible on a PC I wouldn't need a processor then)... as well it can't help with content that I get over cable-TV.

[Axis]

I bet some WD 40 will fix it. It fixed my pickup truck when I drove it in the pond. That stuff will fix anything.

[amt]

or duct tape