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Post by Loop 7 on Jan 28, 2016 0:32:03 GMT -5
A friend of mine who's comprehensively converted his listening to analog (turntable, tube phono preamp, tube preamp, tube power amp) encouraged me to try one of the tube amps he had swapped out for an upgrade. I agreed and brought home a 5 watt per channel amplifier designed and built by Oddwatt (I'll add that I've enjoyed numerous listening sessions to a variety of tube amps in my friend's system and always leave impressed). First, the speakers I'm using with the tube amp (ELAC B6) are not exactly hyper efficient but they aren't exactly pigs. For sure, the speakers benefit from more power (previously drove them with either an XPA-3 or NAD C72) but I went ahead and connected the amp to my UMC-200 with a headless Mac Mini and XDA-2 G2 for source. Well, after two weeks, I think I may be hooked. The sound is definitely different but BETTER to my ears. The highs are slightly rolled but there's tons of detail. The most striking quality is the way the amp reproduces string instruments, voices and cymbals. I hate the word organic but it just seems like there are physical instruments being played. There's also a depth that hard to describe and all music seems to come across as more exciting. On the downside, bass is not as defined which I miss but I think I'm okay giving that up due to the huge payoff I hear from mid-bass up. I do wonder if more power would help the low end? As a side note, I completely understand why Emotiva re-prioritized glass products because it's still a niche customer base and might not make sense business-wise. So, I'm asking for recommendations on affordable tube amps that some of you own or want to own so I can start planning.  |
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Post by milsap195 on Jan 28, 2016 2:18:18 GMT -5
Welcome to the dark side!
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Post by audiobill on Jan 28, 2016 4:32:03 GMT -5
Welcome to what so many of us have realized!
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Post by bluemeanies on Jan 28, 2016 8:08:10 GMT -5
A friend of mine who's comprehensively converted his listening to analog (turntable, tube phono preamp, tube preamp, tube power amp) encouraged me to try one of the tube amps he had swapped out for an upgrade. I agreed and brought home a 5 watt per channel amplifier designed and built by Oddwatt (I'll add that I've enjoyed numerous listening sessions to a variety of tube amps in my friend's system and always leave impressed). First, the speakers I'm using with the tube amp (ELAC B6) are not exactly hyper efficient but they aren't exactly pigs. For sure, the speakers benefit from more power (previously drove them with either an XPA-3 or NAD C72) but I went ahead and connected the amp to my UMC-200 with a headless Mac Mini and XDA-2 G2 for source. Well, after two weeks, I think I may be hooked. The sound is definitely different but BETTER to my ears. The highs are slightly rolled but there's tons of detail. The most striking quality is the way the amp reproduces string instruments, voices and cymbals. I hate the word organic but it just seems like there are physical instruments being played. There's also a depth that hard to describe and all music seems to come across as more exciting. On the downside, bass is not as defined which I miss but I think I'm okay giving that up due to the huge payoff I hear from mid-bass up. I do wonder if more power would help the low end? As a side note, I completely understand why Emotiva re-prioritized glass products because it's still a niche customer base and might not make sense business-wise. So, I'm asking for recommendations on affordable tube amps that some of you own or want to own so I can start planning. What a refreshing positive post regarding tubes amplifiers. This was a treat. Initially seeing the thread I thought I would be reading a lot of negatives. I was on a journey for about two years ago searching for an upgrade in speakers...what I considered to be a huge step-up were my B&W804S speakers. These speakers were actually a gift from my wife and the diamond series were out of my financial means. Previous speakers I have owned...JBL, KEF's, Avance, Klispch, Definitive and let's not forget Dynaudio.. These were all excellent speakers but I cradled to the sound of B&W. People hate them or love 'em. There is no middle ground. A lot of people believe B&W is over priced and that is relative to everything...it is over priced only if you cannot afford them. Recently I purchased the B&W 803 Diamonds after the announcement that B&W was coming out with their new series 3 speakers. I digress. On this journey in search of music nirvana I realized my choices of B&M stores were more limited than a decade ago. The stores I dealt with were not listening to my needs or desire to own B&W Diamond speakers. Instead I was introduced to Focal and $10,000 preamps. This from a store I had been soliciting for over 20years on and off with the same sales people. I was disgusted and decided to put the brakes on my quest. My upgrading was not solely b/c I could afford the upgrade but I felt I was NOT getting the performance level I have heard with so many other systems. Realizing there is a lot that goes into music recreation in ones own dedicated room, size, room design and most important room ascoutics I came onto the Emotiva forum for advice. All of the fore-mentioned already existed but I was still not content. I purchased a pair of XPA's1 mono-block thinking that I needed more headroom. My amplifier at the time was a 7channel amplifier rated at 200watts and the 804's could handle a lot more. Again after 4months I was still disappointed with the sound of music. Getting back on the forum a sympathetic soul heard my cry for help and discouragement. audiobill contacted me and graciously invited me to his home after learning we were only an hours' drive away from each other. I took the offer. audiobill's system consisted of pair of Dynaudio Genisis monitor speakers. At first I was not highly impressed looking at these speakers BUT the sound coming from these monitors was amazing filling a room with a 20' ceiling giving you an idea of the size of the listening area. These speakers I soon learned were 20years old and originally were sold in kit form. audiobill upgraded to external crossovers that he also built. Quite impressive. The heart of the system and main reason I was there were the two mono-block tube amplifiers having just two output tubes in each glowing with a low Amber color. In triode mode they were pushing 35watts into the Gensis speakers without effort and without distortion. Distortion/coloration is a whole other animal that people debate with tube amplication. The tube amplifiers were Bob Latino's m125 mono-blocks which he sells in kit form (tubes4hifi). The pre-amp was the GRACE m920 headphone/DAC. The sound was sublime. Open, clear and lifelike. Realism to the point that I felt the musicians were in the room. Another ingredient in audiobill's setup were the were exact positioning of his speakers. At a ever slow slight upright angle but more importantly toed in to a sweet spot that created the illusion of center stage presence with the monitors disappearing in the music. I was blown away. I thought for a moment of how misguided I was with the advice from B&M stores on speakers, pre-amps and lack of information. Tonal balance in the bass, midrange and treble were equally represented. audiobill had a small subwoofer in a corner at a very low volume. However most of the listening demonstration was done without a subwoofer in the mix. Presentation of the music being played seemed to make the artist sound behind the speakers giving a sense of the musician being in the room. For me it was more laid back. The treble was neither bright or aggressive. Midrange to me is the most important since it is the midrange that our ears recognize or are more sensitive to in recordings and the mids in audiobill's system were smooth. A lot goes into this formulation as mentioned above but I have never experienced an IN HOME demonstration such as this. I liked the way the Bob Latino's mono-blocks presented themselves. I won't go on in detail about there specs since you (if interested) can go to the above web-site. They were as bill put it industrial looking and if you wanted that 16 gauge brushed stainless steel chassis in color you could. The m125's are affordable and made 100% in the USA. Something I really like. Likewise so is the GRACE pre. Immediately when I got back home I was online researching where I could place FREE adds for the sale of some of my equipment. A Fathom 112 sub, Sony multi-disc player, and a pair of XPA's gen 1 amplifiers which were in the house for a short visit. Fortunately I sold everything at prices I had posted and quickly I had some positive cash flow. Everything I purchased after the sale of my equipment was made possible with the money I made selling my equipment which I might add was in PRISTENE condition. After purchasing the m125's and the GRACE (Massdrop) I jumped into TIDAL which was also introduced to me by audiobill. In short and I DO want to stop rambling my system WITH the 804's never sounded so good. I have the same quality sound that you would hear in some of the best B&M stores whose rooms are calibrated to precise measurements...or it is more than fair to say I am happy. My upgrade to the 803 diamonds were another gift from my wife along with some the funds I had attain from selling my 804's. I mentioned this only b/c in reality there was no immediate need for the upgrade however I was greedy and spoiled. The performance of the 804's were amazing with the m125's however the diamonds have made an additional improvement in the lower end. Overall the 803's are a jump over the 804S. Thanks for your thread! |
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Post by sonicseeker on Jan 28, 2016 8:47:04 GMT -5
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kazoo
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Post by kazoo on Jan 28, 2016 8:54:08 GMT -5
Welcome to the dark side! Wouldn't that be "Welcome to the light side!"  Because of the tube glow. This is the next amp I would like to get. Its on the wish list. www.decware.com/newsite/TORIIJR.html |
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Post by sonicseeker on Jan 28, 2016 9:11:50 GMT -5
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Post by garbulky on Jan 28, 2016 10:19:23 GMT -5
So I am auditioning a Mcintosh C220 tube preamp. With my current system, this is the best preamp I've used. Now yes there is some small amount of coloration that keeps it from being the ultimate in transparency - mainly around the bass. But the point - I know what you are saying about the sound. For me some time ago I heard a reviewer say if you want the truth, then use tube gear. Well that's what it sounds to me - the truth. Or at least the feel of "the truth". Who cares if what I'm hearing isn't fully the truth. But you know what? It feels right. And the experience is very pleasant. Usually if I detect even a hint of lack of transparency, the gear is usually out of my system. This one though is still there. Very musical. Lots of pleasure. I heard Jennifer Warnes and man this tube pre was pretty much built for her. Very sweet sound. And the beatles. Oh man they sound great!  |
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Post by brubacca on Jan 28, 2016 12:58:05 GMT -5
Congrats on your discovery. You have a lot of decisions to make because even within the tube world there are many choices.
First choise- price... How juch money do you want to spend?
Second Choice- you going to keep your speakers or get new ones.
Third- what topology/tubes do you like? There are single ended or push pull.
Here are some ideas-
APPJ - several models around $200 on Amazon- reviews online under miniwatt
Jolida fx10 tube Amp- $650
Decware Super Zen- $1000
Rogue Audio Cronus Magnum- $2500
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Post by bluemeanies on Jan 28, 2016 13:12:00 GMT -5
So I am auditioning a Mcintosh C220 tube preamp. With my current system, this is the best preamp I've used. Now yes there is some small amount of coloration that keeps it from being the ultimate in transparency - mainly around the bass. But the point - I know what you are saying about the sound. For me some time ago I heard a reviewer say if you want the truth, then use tube gear. Well that's what it sounds to me - the truth. Or at least the feel of "the truth". Who cares if what I'm hearing isn't fully the truth. But you know what? It feels right. And the experience is very pleasant. Usually if I detect even a hint of lack of transparency, the gear is usually out of my system. This one though is still there. Very musical. Lots of pleasure. I heard Jennifer Warnes and man this tube pre was pretty much built for her. Very sweet sound. And the beatles. Oh man they sound great! :) garbulky...many choices in the world of tubes. If I may offer this suggestion...check out tubes4hi-fi.com Reasonably priced, 100% made in the USA All units come in kit form however a valuable asset if you are not handy is to contact audiobill for assembly. He has helped many on this forum, including myself. He assembled my m125's mono-blocks. Also if you can handle the truth 8-) tubes are NOT that expensive. Of course there are those esoteric tubes that exist but the prices are not to the liking of my palate. Tubes cannot defend themselves against the presence of snake oil...it exist in the world of tubes. Happy Trails |
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Post by garbulky on Jan 28, 2016 13:17:49 GMT -5
So I am auditioning a Mcintosh C220 tube preamp. With my current system, this is the best preamp I've used. Now yes there is some small amount of coloration that keeps it from being the ultimate in transparency - mainly around the bass. But the point - I know what you are saying about the sound. For me some time ago I heard a reviewer say if you want the truth, then use tube gear. Well that's what it sounds to me - the truth. Or at least the feel of "the truth". Who cares if what I'm hearing isn't fully the truth. But you know what? It feels right. And the experience is very pleasant. Usually if I detect even a hint of lack of transparency, the gear is usually out of my system. This one though is still there. Very musical. Lots of pleasure. I heard Jennifer Warnes and man this tube pre was pretty much built for her. Very sweet sound. And the beatles. Oh man they sound great! garbulky...many choices in the world of tubes. If I may offer this suggestion...check out tubes4hi-fi.com Reasonably priced, 100% made in the USA All units come in kit form however a valuable asset if you are not handy is to contact audiobill for assembly. He has helped many on this forum, including myself. He assembled my m125's mono-blocks. Also if you can handle the truth  tubes are NOT that expensive. Of course there are those esoteric tubes that exist but the prices are not to the liking of my palate. Tubes cannot defend themselves against the presence of snake oil...it exist in the world of tubes. Happy Trails Thanks! But right now I think I am set. I really like the detail and headroom of my XPA-1s. I bought them to be essentially my last amps. I don't think I could go to the 35 watt units even though they obviously have plenty of grunt. I think my future is in solid state. But I can understand why tubes are sought after so highly. |
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Post by simpleman68 on Jan 28, 2016 13:50:22 GMT -5
I would love to be able to audition a couple different types of tube amps on my 2 ch system and have been pondering how to do so for a while now.
Rogue Audio is about 25 miles North of me so that may be my best option for in home audition.
The Legacy Whispers I have were built with 1000W ICE amps to handle the bass below 300 Hz so the amp to drive them only needs to handle
the mids, tweets and "super tweets" which seems like a perfect job for tubes.
On the other hand, I just bought a pair of JC1 monos..... lol
Scott
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Post by routlaw on Jan 28, 2016 14:00:23 GMT -5
If I may offer this suggestion...check out tubes4hi-fi.com Reasonably priced, 100% made in the USA All units come in kit form however a valuable asset if you are not handy is to contact audiobill for assembly. He has helped many on this forum, including myself. Hmm, my experience with Tubes4Hifi has not been as positive as yours. Ordered the PH16 phono stage kit before the holidays, took a couple of weeks or so before I could start working on it but once finished not only was its performance sub par, but its anything but dead quiet exhibiting a very noticeable hum. With numerous emails the designer has been unable to figure out the problem. I sent him high res images of my build which he said was a good one and did not think this to be the problem. At this point my options are to send the kit to him to fix the what ever ails it. But at the heart of the matter the XSP-1 with built in XPS-1 phono stage annihilates the PH16 except for one area, that being a more forgiving treble. Bass barely shows up to the event with the PH16 while by comparison the XPS-1 exhibits very fast, precise, and deep tuneful bass with impact. Its not even close. The XPS-1 is noticeably more transparent with clarity. To add insult the kit came with lots of missing parts which had to be sent out in numerous other shipments as it became clear things were missing as I dug further into building the kit. The rectifier tube was not outputting to its full potential and that had to be replaced but still did not fix the humming part. This rectifier tube is a 12X4, which are no longer made and hasn't been for years so supply is limited, very limited in fact, yet he chooses to use this tube for all of his designs or so he stated on another forum. If this were not enough, there are NO substitute or replacement tubes for this particular tube, again stated by the designer himself on another forum. I know others think this phono stage is superb, which makes me inclined to think they really have never heard decent bass or many other phono stages. So now I'm stuck with a $600 paper weight, or throw more good money after bad for RT shipping to have him fix my PH16. Between this kit and my recent experiences with the XMC-1 I'm on the verge of finding another hobby and blowing off audiophilia/videophilia nervosa. Not finding much fun in it these days. Sorry for the rant. |
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KeithL
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Post by KeithL on Jan 28, 2016 14:26:01 GMT -5
Yes, more power will probably help the low end (5 watts is really not much power). Also, while tube amps always have a relatively low damping factor, a more power one may offer a bit more damping, which will make the bass at least somewhat more solid. You also might consider a hybrid, which might get you the "sound" of the tubes, combined with the damping factor of a solid state output section, which would improve the bass. (The way hybrids sound is all over the map, so don't assume one way or the other there.) A friend of mine who's comprehensively converted his listening to analog (turntable, tube phono preamp, tube preamp, tube power amp) encouraged me to try one of the tube amps he had swapped out for an upgrade. I agreed and brought home a 5 watt per channel amplifier designed and built by Oddwatt (I'll add that I've enjoyed numerous listening sessions to a variety of tube amps in my friend's system and always leave impressed). First, the speakers I'm using with the tube amp (ELAC B6) are not exactly hyper efficient but they aren't exactly pigs. For sure, the speakers benefit from more power (previously drove them with either an XPA-3 or NAD C72) but I went ahead and connected the amp to my UMC-200 with a headless Mac Mini and XDA-2 G2 for source. Well, after two weeks, I think I may be hooked. The sound is definitely different but BETTER to my ears. The highs are slightly rolled but there's tons of detail. The most striking quality is the way the amp reproduces string instruments, voices and cymbals. I hate the word organic but it just seems like there are physical instruments being played. There's also a depth that hard to describe and all music seems to come across as more exciting. On the downside, bass is not as defined which I miss but I think I'm okay giving that up due to the huge payoff I hear from mid-bass up. I do wonder if more power would help the low end? As a side note, I completely understand why Emotiva re-prioritized glass products because it's still a niche customer base and might not make sense business-wise. So, I'm asking for recommendations on affordable tube amps that some of you own or want to own so I can start planning. |
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Post by bluemeanies on Jan 28, 2016 16:25:22 GMT -5
If I may offer this suggestion...check out tubes4hi-fi.com Reasonably priced, 100% made in the USA All units come in kit form however a valuable asset if you are not handy is to contact audiobill for assembly. He has helped many on this forum, including myself. Hmm, my experience with Tubes4Hifi has not been as positive as yours. Ordered the PH16 phono stage kit before the holidays, took a couple of weeks or so before I could start working on it but once finished not only was its performance sub par, but its anything but dead quiet exhibiting a very noticeable hum. With numerous emails the designer has been unable to figure out the problem. I sent him high res images of my build which he said was a good one and did not think this to be the problem. At this point my options are to send the kit to him to fix the what ever ails it. But at the heart of the matter the XSP-1 with built in XPS-1 phono stage annihilates the PH16 except for one area, that being a more forgiving treble. Bass barely shows up to the event with the PH16 while by comparison the XPS-1 exhibits very fast, precise, and deep tuneful bass with impact. Its not even close. The XPS-1 is noticeably more transparent with clarity. To add insult the kit came with lots of missing parts which had to be sent out in numerous other shipments as it became clear things were missing as I dug further into building the kit. The rectifier tube was not outputting to its full potential and that had to be replaced but still did not fix the humming part. This rectifier tube is a 12X4, which are no longer made and hasn't been for years so supply is limited, very limited in fact, yet he chooses to use this tube for all of his designs or so he stated on another forum. If this were not enough, there are NO substitute or replacement tubes for this particular tube, again stated by the designer himself on another forum. I know others think this phono stage is superb, which makes me inclined to think they really have never heard decent bass or many other phono stages. So now I'm stuck with a $600 paper weight, or throw more good money after bad for RT shipping to have him fix my PH16. Between this kit and my recent experiences with the XMC-1 I'm on the verge of finding another hobby and blowing off audiophilia/videophilia nervosa. Not finding much fun in it these days. Sorry for the rant. Sorry to hear about your disillusion with your phono stage Since this is a first that I have heard of poor customer satisfaction about tubes4hifi I like to ask you a couple of questions but please do not misunderstand my curiosity about how and why your problems arose in the first place. As you may know wiring is a critical issue with any piece of electronics but especially with a phono stage in regards to GAIN control. So I guess my first question is since you bravely undertook the challenge of assembling the PH16 what kind of experience do you have in reading sensitive directions, electronics and soldering just to name a few. Remember I am not trying to brash you. I myself wanted to assemble my m125 mono-blocks but wanting to do something and having some background in electronics which I didn't...well that argument with myself had the upper hand, and I chose to have a professional do it. I bet I saved myself a lot of heartache. I had purchased a pair of XPA1's from Emotiva and the short story is that I had a problem with the pair. I contacted them by phone and they were very responsive to my needs and sent me a new pair without any hassle. So my second question is did you contact Roy since he is the one on the developmental side of the pre-amps and phono stages. The PH16 is a find piece of equipment but under the circumstances from what I have read there is a strong possibility that your wiring is the culprit and that maybe you jumped into something bigger than what you thought. Contact Roy... |
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Post by monkumonku on Jan 28, 2016 16:36:26 GMT -5
garbulky...many choices in the world of tubes. If I may offer this suggestion...check out tubes4hi-fi.com Reasonably priced, 100% made in the USA All units come in kit form however a valuable asset if you are not handy is to contact audiobill for assembly. He has helped many on this forum, including myself. He assembled my m125's mono-blocks. Also if you can handle the truth tubes are NOT that expensive. Of course there are those esoteric tubes that exist but the prices are not to the liking of my palate. Tubes cannot defend themselves against the presence of snake oil...it exist in the world of tubes. Happy Trails Thanks! But right now I think I am set. I really like the detail and headroom of my XPA-1s. I bought them to be essentially my last amps. I don't think I could go to the 35 watt units even though they obviously have plenty of grunt. I think my future is in solid state. But I can understand why tubes are sought after so highly. Hey now waaaaaaaaaait a minute there... you just got done extolling the virtues of how tubes make the music sound so much more natural. The issue with the bass can probably be rectified with a little bit more power. But if the sonic improvement with tubes is that noticeable, then don't you owe it to yourself to become a tuber?  (and uh, I'm not suggesting you become a potato)  |
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Post by audiobill on Jan 28, 2016 17:32:51 GMT -5
If I may offer this suggestion...check out tubes4hi-fi.com Reasonably priced, 100% made in the USA All units come in kit form however a valuable asset if you are not handy is to contact audiobill for assembly. He has helped many on this forum, including myself. Hmm, my experience with Tubes4Hifi has not been as positive as yours. Ordered the PH16 phono stage kit before the holidays, took a couple of weeks or so before I could start working on it but once finished not only was its performance sub par, but its anything but dead quiet exhibiting a very noticeable hum. With numerous emails the designer has been unable to figure out the problem. I sent him high res images of my build which he said was a good one and did not think this to be the problem. At this point my options are to send the kit to him to fix the what ever ails it. But at the heart of the matter the XSP-1 with built in XPS-1 phono stage annihilates the PH16 except for one area, that being a more forgiving treble. Bass barely shows up to the event with the PH16 while by comparison the XPS-1 exhibits very fast, precise, and deep tuneful bass with impact. Its not even close. The XPS-1 is noticeably more transparent with clarity. To add insult the kit came with lots of missing parts which had to be sent out in numerous other shipments as it became clear things were missing as I dug further into building the kit. The rectifier tube was not outputting to its full potential and that had to be replaced but still did not fix the humming part. This rectifier tube is a 12X4, which are no longer made and hasn't been for years so supply is limited, very limited in fact, yet he chooses to use this tube for all of his designs or so he stated on another forum. If this were not enough, there are NO substitute or replacement tubes for this particular tube, again stated by the designer himself on another forum. I know others think this phono stage is superb, which makes me inclined to think they really have never heard decent bass or many other phono stages. So now I'm stuck with a $600 paper weight, or throw more good money after bad for RT shipping to have him fix my PH16. Between this kit and my recent experiences with the XMC-1 I'm on the verge of finding another hobby and blowing off audiophilia/videophilia nervosa. Not finding much fun in it these days. Sorry for the rant. You may wish to look to your cartridge......here's another's experience: "I received this cartridge last Thursday, and have been listening ever since. Great way to celebrate the weekend after a demanding week at the office. Setup on my VPI Classic and JMW 10.5i arm has been more difficult than usual. The pins are good quality, and the cart body is threaded. Once the table was powered on, I was picking up a quite audible hum in my left channel where I had dead silence with my Dynavector DV-20XL (retipped by Soundsmith). The hum with the Zephyr is akin to what you might hear when your turntable ground wire is not connected. I went over all of my tonearm cable, ground wire and cartridge pin connections, and checked the lay of my unshielded DIY silver in cotton dielectric interconnects (Chris Venhaus recipe). I couldn't find any issues, so I swapped in some directionally shielded Audioquest Niagara interconnects, and the hum thankfully disappeared (I wonder what cables Tullman is using). This was all kind of disappointing, since I discovered that my unshielded DIY silver interconnects had synergized so nicely throughout the chain for my vinyl playback with that Dynavector in place. I'd love to understand why certain carts generate hum (anyone?). " |
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KeithL
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Post by KeithL on Jan 28, 2016 18:07:10 GMT -5
It's just possible that the Audioquest cables were quieter because, well, they ARE shielded - and shielding is one pretty well known way of reducing hum  Your new Zephyr cartridge is also a moving iron design, and is very sensitive to external magnetic fields (if it has "a big magnet and a big coil" then that big coil is going to be especially sensitive to external fields as well as the field from the magnet). Perhaps it's especially fussy about being properly shielded. Also, since there's really no such thing as a "directional wire", those Audioquest cables probably have the shield disconnected at one end or the other, which is a common practice for curing ground loops in pro equipment - and ground loops are a very common cause of hum. (So, if you really want to use your homebrew cable with that cartridge, you might experiment - carefully - with lifting the ground at one end of one pair of wires. It just might help.) Hmm, my experience with Tubes4Hifi has not been as positive as yours. Ordered the PH16 phono stage kit before the holidays, took a couple of weeks or so before I could start working on it but once finished not only was its performance sub par, but its anything but dead quiet exhibiting a very noticeable hum. With numerous emails the designer has been unable to figure out the problem. I sent him high res images of my build which he said was a good one and did not think this to be the problem. At this point my options are to send the kit to him to fix the what ever ails it. But at the heart of the matter the XSP-1 with built in XPS-1 phono stage annihilates the PH16 except for one area, that being a more forgiving treble. Bass barely shows up to the event with the PH16 while by comparison the XPS-1 exhibits very fast, precise, and deep tuneful bass with impact. Its not even close. The XPS-1 is noticeably more transparent with clarity. To add insult the kit came with lots of missing parts which had to be sent out in numerous other shipments as it became clear things were missing as I dug further into building the kit. The rectifier tube was not outputting to its full potential and that had to be replaced but still did not fix the humming part. This rectifier tube is a 12X4, which are no longer made and hasn't been for years so supply is limited, very limited in fact, yet he chooses to use this tube for all of his designs or so he stated on another forum. If this were not enough, there are NO substitute or replacement tubes for this particular tube, again stated by the designer himself on another forum. I know others think this phono stage is superb, which makes me inclined to think they really have never heard decent bass or many other phono stages. So now I'm stuck with a $600 paper weight, or throw more good money after bad for RT shipping to have him fix my PH16. Between this kit and my recent experiences with the XMC-1 I'm on the verge of finding another hobby and blowing off audiophilia/videophilia nervosa. Not finding much fun in it these days. Sorry for the rant. You may wish to look to your cartridge......here's another's experience: "I received this cartridge last Thursday, and have been listening ever since. Great way to celebrate the weekend after a demanding week at the office. Setup on my VPI Classic and JMW 10.5i arm has been more difficult than usual. The pins are good quality, and the cart body is threaded. Once the table was powered on, I was picking up a quite audible hum in my left channel where I had dead silence with my Dynavector DV-20XL (retipped by Soundsmith). The hum with the Zephyr is akin to what you might hear when your turntable ground wire is not connected. I went over all of my tonearm cable, ground wire and cartridge pin connections, and checked the lay of my unshielded DIY silver in cotton dielectric interconnects (Chris Venhaus recipe). I couldn't find any issues, so I swapped in some directionally shielded Audioquest Niagara interconnects, and the hum thankfully disappeared (I wonder what cables Tullman is using). This was all kind of disappointing, since I discovered that my unshielded DIY silver interconnects had synergized so nicely throughout the chain for my vinyl playback with that Dynavector in place. I'd love to understand why certain carts generate hum (anyone?). " |
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Post by garbulky on Jan 28, 2016 18:09:57 GMT -5
Thanks! But right now I think I am set. I really like the detail and headroom of my XPA-1s. I bought them to be essentially my last amps. I don't think I could go to the 35 watt units even though they obviously have plenty of grunt. I think my future is in solid state. But I can understand why tubes are sought after so highly. Hey now waaaaaaaaaait a minute there... you just got done extolling the virtues of how tubes make the music sound so much more natural. The issue with the bass can probably be rectified with a little bit more power. But if the sonic improvement with tubes is that noticeable, then don't you owe it to yourself to become a tuber? (and uh, I'm not suggesting you become a potato) Well it was a tube preamp. So the bass was on the same XPA-1 amps. It was the mcintosh pre vs the solid state DC-1's preamp. Though the Mcintosh brought great sound ultimately it's not the direction I want to go. Doesn't mean I don't enjoy it. |
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Post by routlaw on Jan 28, 2016 20:36:35 GMT -5
Sorry to hear about your disillusion with your phono stage Since this is a first that I have heard of poor customer satisfaction about tubes4hifi I like to ask you a couple of questions but please do not misunderstand my curiosity about how and why your problems arose in the first place. As you may know wiring is a critical issue with any piece of electronics but especially with a phono stage in regards to GAIN control. So I guess my first question is since you bravely undertook the challenge of assembling the PH16 what kind of experience do you have in reading sensitive directions, electronics and soldering just to name a few. Remember I am not trying to brash you. I myself wanted to assemble my m125 mono-blocks but wanting to do something and having some background in electronics which I didn't...well that argument with myself had the upper hand, and I chose to have a professional do it. I bet I saved myself a lot of heartache. I had purchased a pair of XPA1's from Emotiva and the short story is that I had a problem with the pair. I contacted them by phone and they were very responsive to my needs and sent me a new pair without any hassle. So my second question is did you contact Roy since he is the one on the developmental side of the pre-amps and phono stages. The PH16 is a find piece of equipment but under the circumstances from what I have read there is a strong possibility that your wiring is the culprit and that maybe you jumped into something bigger than what you thought. Contact Roy... Thanks for your comments bluemeanies. Yes I have had a gazillion emails with Roy, more than I care to think and and probably vice versa. We were in constant contact during the process of my build. You'll get no argument from me most people have been happy with the CS with Roy and perhaps mine is the first negative so take it with a grain of salt. But I can tell you beyond a shadow of a doubt CS with him and CS with Emotiva are worlds apart, not even on the same playing field. But this is not the place to air that out. Now to answer your specific questions, there is a problem with the voltage regulator and its associated parts apparently and we tried everything in the book to deal with it, i.e. new rectifier tube, different resistors in critical places checked and double checked wiring but at the end of the day there simply is not enough DC current flowing through two critical diodes in order for the voltage regulator to clean up the sound thus the hum. This is what I was told. All other measurements, B+1, B+2, DC volts to the phono stage, correct wiring for correct voltage at the PS stage etc however were in proper spec. My qualifications: I'm not an EE and told Roy before purchasing and asked his opinion based upon my experiences and he gave me his blessings and encouraged me to take on the project. Understand too, I'm not easily intimidated. But I have built a couple pairs of speakers including but not limited to all crossover parts and modifications, have made numerous modifications to some circuit boards including but not limited to a pair of Martin Logan Quest Z's I used to own, and all but completely rebuilt the crossovers for those speakers, tore an entire Krell KSA 200s apart because it blew up due to a June 23rd snow storm of about 3-4 feet which created huge power surges and the Krell went up in smoke, sent the PCB's back to Krell they repaired it and I rebuilt the amp, and it worked fine. Discovered a ground loop hum on a PS Audio Classic 250 amp back in the days I worked in the industry and represented them. They redesigned the input PCB, sent it to me, I took the amp apart and installed the PCB with success. This was almost more difficult than the Krell operation, but thats another discussion. The long and short of it is I have tinkered with and soldered various electronics for years though I would never claim to be an expert by any means. The PH 16 was an ambitious project for me without a doubt, and along the way there were a few mistakes I made, well one only that Roy and I are aware of so far. There are a number of jumpers on the main PCB (phono stage not PS) that need jumpers which I over looked (except for two very important ones) in the initial build. Once those were in place at least the sound was balanced from left to right. To that I will add a few comments and while it will sound as though I'm bashing Roy its not meant to be I'm sure he is a nice guy, but suffice it to say his instruction manual is sorely lacking and I'm not the first to state this either. I asked him about it, and he said he preferred to do emails rather than write a long manual. So be it. But just as important there were or are so many contradictions to his photos online and subsequent instructions there with the schematic and illustrations it added a lot of unnecessary confusion and angst. I'm not making this part up. And the online photos of those circuit boards do not even look vaguely like the ones he now sends. In all fairness the new boards are much much nicer, easier to read and understand. They really are laid out quite well and he is to be congratulated for this improvement, but again don't jive with the online photos. He really should be updating those and in fact I offered to let him use the pictures I took for online illustrations but he never did. I will post those later so you can compare yourself. So did I blow? Who knows and the only way to find out is for me to send the unit back for him to look at and fix. But given that it doesn't even perform up to the standards of the XPS-1 its really hard to get excited about doing this. Had it been at least an even playing field between the two I would feel more encouraged. Sorry for the long winded post, but you did ask. |
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tubes are NOT that expensive. Of course there are those esoteric tubes that exist but the prices are not to the liking of my palate.
(and uh, I'm not suggesting you become a potato)
