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Post by routlaw on Jan 28, 2016 20:44:07 GMT -5
To Audiobill: No its not the cart, it has been playing fine with the XPS-1 for the past couple of years and due to its rather low output 2.2 mVolts I have to run the volume for the phono stage quite a bit higher than will most MM designs and do get a little hiss but its not even close to what the PH 16 exhibits. I would encourage you to read my reply to bluemeanies if interested. To that I will add that setting up a SoundSmith cart, or maybe its just the Zephyr is not for the feint of heart as it requires ultimate precision, exacerbated by the unipivot tone arm of the VPI TT's. Not knocking either of those companies in fact I love what I have, just difficult to setup correctly. Specs on the Mark II version are much different than the VPI Zephyr too and require a much different set of parameters.
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Post by Gary Cook on Jan 28, 2016 21:47:58 GMT -5
The highs are slightly rolled but there's tons of detail. On the downside, bass is not as defined which I miss but I think I'm okay giving that up due to the huge payoff I hear from mid-bass up. What you are describing is typical of tube amplifiers, rolled highs and muddy bass. Plus there's the presence of 2nd order "harmonic" distortion in the mid range. Which to some listeners that can be pleasant sounding and to some others very unpleasant. The fact is the rolled highs, muddy bass and distorted mid range are not "real" in that they aren't present in the original recording. Hence using the terms "realism" in relation to "tube amplifiers" is not something that I personally would remotely consider. Which is not to say that everyone should dislike tube amplifiers, we are all free to like whatever we want. Let's just not be delusional as to the reasons why. Cheers Gary |
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Post by lionear on Jan 29, 2016 1:36:56 GMT -5
A friend of mine who's comprehensively converted his listening to analog (turntable, tube phono preamp, tube preamp, tube power amp) encouraged me to try one of the tube amps he had swapped out for an upgrade. I agreed and brought home a 5 watt per channel amplifier designed and built by Oddwatt (I'll add that I've enjoyed numerous listening sessions to a variety of tube amps in my friend's system and always leave impressed). First, the speakers I'm using with the tube amp (ELAC B6) are not exactly hyper efficient but they aren't exactly pigs. For sure, the speakers benefit from more power (previously drove them with either an XPA-3 or NAD C72) but I went ahead and connected the amp to my UMC-200 with a headless Mac Mini and XDA-2 G2 for source. Well, after two weeks, I think I may be hooked. The sound is definitely different but BETTER to my ears. The highs are slightly rolled but there's tons of detail. The most striking quality is the way the amp reproduces string instruments, voices and cymbals. I hate the word organic but it just seems like there are physical instruments being played. There's also a depth that hard to describe and all music seems to come across as more exciting. On the downside, bass is not as defined which I miss but I think I'm okay giving that up due to the huge payoff I hear from mid-bass up. I do wonder if more power would help the low end? As a side note, I completely understand why Emotiva re-prioritized glass products because it's still a niche customer base and might not make sense business-wise. So, I'm asking for recommendations on affordable tube amps that some of you own or want to own so I can start planning.  It's hard to make recommendations without knowing your budget or the power requirements. I'd check out VTL and Manley amps. They sound very different - the VTL sounds a lot like a solid state amp! There's the Audio Research brand. HP thought the Ref 75 was the best amp available - regardless of price. And I'd love to hear the Decware Zen power amp - the 40 watt stereo unit. A friend has a Decware preamp and I'm very impressed with it. |
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Post by bluemeanies on Jan 29, 2016 6:26:35 GMT -5
routlaw...no problem with the post!
It makes for good therapy.
It seems that you definitely have experience and as you say are not intimated with such projects.
Intidmadation had nothing to do with it for me. Simply put handing the reins to someone who is MORE experienced and to someone who constantly does this kind of work practically daily makes more sense to me and saves more than my pride (stubborn@times) money and aggravation,disgust come to mine.
I hope this problem gets satisfied to your satisfaction.
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Post by vneal on Jan 29, 2016 7:48:02 GMT -5
I have HT upgrades planned for amp & processor this year.( waiting for Emotiva to show and introduce all new models) but I am also planning a dedicated 2 channel room and tubes for system are a definite consideration. The more we learn about different technologies tube & ss ---the more we can make an educated purchase
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Post by pedrocols on Jan 29, 2016 9:36:09 GMT -5
People seem to get soooooo hung up about specs when it comes to tube amps. Most solid state amps over emphisize the bass making it sound "tighter." I invite you to my place and have a listen and if the bass doesn't hit you in the chest, you can have my system for free and do with it whatever you want...
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Post by bluemeanies on Jan 29, 2016 9:39:56 GMT -5
The highs are slightly rolled but there's tons of detail. On the downside, bass is not as defined which I miss but I think I'm okay giving that up due to the huge payoff I hear from mid-bass up. What you are describing is typical of tube amplifiers, rolled highs and muddy bass. Plus there's the presence of 2nd order "harmonic" distortion in the mid range. Which to some listeners that can be pleasant sounding and to some others very unpleasant. The fact is the rolled highs, muddy bass and distorted mid range are not "real" in that they aren't present in the original recording. Hence using the terms "realism" in relation to "tube amplifiers" is not something that I personally would remotely consider. Which is not to say that everyone should dislike tube amplifiers, we are all free to like whatever we want. Let's just not be delusional as to the reasons why. Cheers Gary Agreed that we are all free to like what we want but the characization that tube enthusiasts are "delusional" is misplaced. There is a lot that goes into any system as far as correctness and accurency of sound qualities even down to the recording itself. Muddy bass? Distorted mid-range? Perhaps on paper but I listen as thousands of other TUBIES do with their ears. Not graphs and sine waves. Get off the seesaw of bad mouthing tube amplifiers and then petting our heads with "we are all free to like what we want" and then come back again only to slap us with being delusional. Have you ever own a tube amplifier. Not listen to one but own one...big difference. |
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Post by brubacca on Jan 29, 2016 9:44:19 GMT -5
My tube experience is rather limited in the scope of items available, but...
I have listened to two similar amps with the same speakers and can give a limited opinion. The speakers in question are my Sonus Faber 1.5 bookshelf, so they are not exactly full range.
The first tube amp i heard with them was a PrimaLuna Prologue Premium with EL34 tubes. Magical midrange with no real bass. The midrange was to die for. The second was my Rogue Audio Cronus with the KT120 tubes. This amp has balls. Nice bass, but the midrange is not as magical as the EL34.
From what I see reading on the web, this generalization rings true for many. Amps with the KT120 tubes have very good bass control compared to other Push Pull designs. Amps with the smaller El34 type tubes are more of the traditional tube sound.
I have never tried a monster amp like the xpa-2, but I did use a UPA-200 and a Sherbourn PA2-50 on the same speakers ( before the tube amp). While i didn't do a direct comparison I can say that those speakers sound their best with the Rogue.
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Post by garbulky on Jan 29, 2016 10:04:47 GMT -5
People seem to get soooooo hung up about specs when it comes to tube amps. Most solid state amps over emphisize the bass making it sound "tighter." I invite you to my place and have a listen and if the bass doesn't hit you in the chest, you can have my system for free and do with it whatever you want... I believe you. But...don't your subs have something to do with that?!! |
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Post by pedrocols on Jan 29, 2016 10:22:27 GMT -5
People seem to get soooooo hung up about specs when it comes to tube amps. Most solid state amps over emphisize the bass making it sound "tighter." I invite you to my place and have a listen and if the bass doesn't hit you in the chest, you can have my system for free and do with it whatever you want... I believe you. But...don't your subs have something to do with that?!! But of course! However, most people, especially the home theater bass heads, use subwoofers anyways... |
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Post by cheapthryl on Jan 29, 2016 11:13:58 GMT -5
I guess I'm lucky. I have multiple systems for different music venues. SYNERGY works for me. And I DO love My tubes, just not for everything.
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Post by audiobill on Jan 29, 2016 11:18:01 GMT -5
I guess I'm lucky. I have multiple systems for different music venues. SYNERGY works for me. And I DO love My tubes, just not for everything. Agree - the sonic priorities for HT and two channel listening are so very different, two different systems are the way to go. |
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Post by Boomzilla on Jan 29, 2016 11:27:45 GMT -5
What you are describing is typical of tube amplifiers, rolled highs and muddy bass. Plus there's the presence of 2nd order "harmonic" distortion in the mid range... Hi Gary CookI must politely insist that although your comments are accurate concerning tube equipment from the 1940s through the 1960s, modern tube equipment (since 2000 for sure) is different. Stuff from 1970 to 2000 can be either older or newer in tone. So what's new tube equipment sound like? I had a pair of Quicksilver mono block tube amps that nobody could have told from solid state. They were that neutral. Modern tube preamps from McIntosh, Conrad Johnson, & Audio Research maintain the extended treble and tight bass of solid-state equipment while still providing some of the tube "bloom" in the midrange. So don't paint all tube equipment with such a wide brush. It isn't so. Cordially - Boomzilla |
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Post by copperpipe on Jan 29, 2016 12:33:28 GMT -5
People seem to get soooooo hung up about specs when it comes to tube amps. Most solid state amps over emphisize the bass making it sound "tighter." I invite you to my place and have a listen and if the bass doesn't hit you in the chest, you can have my system for free and do with it whatever you want... I'm not getting into a discussion of "are tubes better / worse"; but I disagree with your "over emphasize the bass" comment. That's not possible, it would show up in frequency response graphs. If you're not refering to frequency, then the only other thing is "control" over the cone, damping factor etc. Again, you can't over emphasize that. You can't over emphasize stopping a woofer from vibrating when it is supposed to stop vibrating. You can only make it more sloppy by not stopping the woofer when it is supposed to stop. |
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Post by pedrocols on Jan 29, 2016 12:57:31 GMT -5
People seem to get soooooo hung up about specs when it comes to tube amps. Most solid state amps over emphisize the bass making it sound "tighter." I invite you to my place and have a listen and if the bass doesn't hit you in the chest, you can have my system for free and do with it whatever you want... I'm not getting into a discussion of "are tubes better / worse"; but I disagree with your "over emphasize the bass" comment. That's not possible, it would show up in frequency response graphs. If you're not refering to frequency, then the only other thing is "control" over the cone, damping factor etc. Again, you can't over emphasize that. You can't over emphasize stopping a woofer from vibrating when it is supposed to stop vibrating. You can only make it more sloppy by not stopping the woofer when it is supposed to stop. Speakers can and will "react" differently regardless of how much "control" a solid state amp can have over the woofers or drivers. To answer your concern yes you can over emphasize control or stopping a woofer. However, tha is taking into account which woofer we are talking about as most speakers have different woofers or drivers. I have magnepan speakers which does not have a "woofer" per say so how do we can apply your theory to magneoan speakers? |
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Post by Gary Cook on Jan 29, 2016 19:02:58 GMT -5
Have you ever own a tube amplifier. Not listen to one but own one...big difference. I haven't actually counted how many tube pre amps, amps etc that I have owned, it would be close to 100 if I counted the pro gear. Of which about 20 or so were DIY assembled. Cheers Gary |
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Post by audiobill on Jan 29, 2016 19:12:09 GMT -5
But to Boom's point, since 1960?
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Post by bluemeanies on Jan 29, 2016 20:25:42 GMT -5
Have you ever own a tube amplifier. Not listen to one but own one...big difference. I haven't actually counted how many tube pre amps, amps etc that I have owned, it would be close to 100 if I counted the pro gear. Of which about 20 or so were DIY assembled. Cheers Gary I will have to take your word of ownership for all of the tube equipment You have owned over the years. Maybe your were in the business? No matter, I will still stand by the performance of my tube amplifiers over SS as many others do. It boils down to a matter of choice....tubes/SS Having owned so many tube products...100 I have to wonder why you kept on going back to tubes if you felt disappointed in there performance. Nothing to debate about b/c everyone has opinions and preferences. |
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Post by Gary Cook on Jan 29, 2016 20:28:48 GMT -5
What you are describing is typical of tube amplifiers, rolled highs and muddy bass. Plus there's the presence of 2nd order "harmonic" distortion in the mid range... Hi Gary CookI must politely insist that although your comments are accurate concerning tube equipment from the 1940s through the 1960s, modern tube equipment (since 2000 for sure) is different. Stuff from 1970 to 2000 can be either older or newer in tone. So what's new tube equipment sound like? I had a pair of Quicksilver mono block tube amps that nobody could have told from solid state. They were that neutral. Modern tube preamps from McIntosh, Conrad Johnson, & Audio Research maintain the extended treble and tight bass of solid-state equipment while still providing some of the tube "bloom" in the midrange. So don't paint all tube equipment with such a wide brush. It isn't so. Cordially - Boomzilla Utmost cordiality right back Boom. Of the above I never owned any tube gear before the 70's, but I heard quite a few designed / manufactured in 60's. I worked for a company that sold "vintage" gear, especially tube based, so I had plenty of opportunity. Over the decades I have noted that tube manufacturers (in general) have been trying to make their tube gear sound more solid state like. In some cases they have been quite successful, their gear does sound almost like solid state gear. e.g. your Quicksilver amps. But the market i.e.; tube gear buyers, don't want their gear to sound solid state, they want some tube artefacts, otherwise why would they buy them? The successful tube gear manufacturers e.g. MacIntosh, know what their customer base wants and meets that expectation. As I have mentioned numerous times I'm a mid range biased listener. In that my favourite instruments, male and female voice etc are concentrated in the mid range. For sure I'm not a fan of exaggerated / rolled off highs or muddy / dominating bass, but I really notice and dislike any mid range distortion. Some may call it "bloom", to me it's just distortion that isn't present in the original source. Don't get me wrong I like for example John Fogerty's Les Paul, mahogany black beauty, through a Kornford tube amp. It sounds just like it should for 60's / 70's rock and roll, real live unmistakable tube sound. I don't need to add any more tubiness to it when I listen at home. Cheers Gary |
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Post by audiobill on Jan 29, 2016 20:52:24 GMT -5
I have said it before, but I've heard many pieces of solid state gear described as "almost tubelike" but rarely if ever the opposite.
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