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Post by Gary Cook on Jan 29, 2016 22:02:29 GMT -5
I haven't actually counted how many tube pre amps, amps etc that I have owned, it would be close to 100 if I counted the pro gear. Of which about 20 or so were DIY assembled. I will have to take your word of ownership for all of the tube equipment You have owned over the years. Maybe your were in the business? No matter, I will still stand by the performance of my tube amplifiers over SS as many others do. It boils down to a matter of choice....tubes/SS Having owned so many tube products...100 I have to wonder why you kept on going back to tubes if you felt disappointed in there performance. Nothing to debate about b/c everyone has opinions and preferences. To pay for my university degrees I worked weekends as a roady, sound and lights in the 70's so I had plenty of opportunity to audition pro and home audio gear. I still have contacts in the industry and have access to pretty much any pro gear that I want to listen to. In regards to the amount of tube gear, full time I worked for 12 years in a company that manufactured and distributed audio gear. Back then they had a huge tube testing and manufacturing facility so I had ready access to all sorts of tube based equipment. Through the late 70s' and early 80's I used to buy, refurbish, tube role and tune gear, all the time searching for the sound that I liked. I finally found what I wanted in a 25 WPC Class A solid state amp and whilst I have revisited tube amps and pre amps many times since they still display the symptoms that I moved away from. I'm sure if I searched hard enough I'd probably find a tube amp that I liked, but it would sound solid state like so why would I bother with the tube associated hassles? Cheers Gary |
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Post by vneal on Jan 29, 2016 22:12:43 GMT -5
For 2 channel would I prefer a current modern Air Tight, Manley, VTL, McIntosh, Audio Research tubed equipment.  Short answer HELL YES |
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Post by Boomzilla on Jan 29, 2016 23:35:18 GMT -5
Hi again Gary Cook - I can agree with you. If the absolute utmost fidelity to the source material is one's goal, then (in general) solid-state gear is more neutral. There are exceptions, but as Mr. Levkof said, accuracy can be done with transistors or (at greater cost) with tubes. But the source material is often far from "absolute fidelity" already. Mixing boards, microphones, mic placement, equalization, etc. have all already tampered with the original sound. Your own room imposes a huge additional "filter" on the recorded sound. Many, as you do, say that you have no control over those things, therefore do no further harm to the signal. Others take a contrary approach. Their claim is that whatever makes the original re recording sound best in their room is the correct option. I've been in both camps from time to time, but I'm currently leaning toward the latter approach - thus tubes. As has been mentioned, this debate (if we're debating preference, rather than fact) can continue endlessly. De gustibus non est disputandum! Boom |
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Post by bluemeanies on Jan 30, 2016 5:05:15 GMT -5
I will have to take your word of ownership for all of the tube equipment You have owned over the years. Maybe your were in the business? No matter, I will still stand by the performance of my tube amplifiers over SS as many others do. It boils down to a matter of choice....tubes/SS Having owned so many tube products...100 I have to wonder why you kept on going back to tubes if you felt disappointed in there performance. Nothing to debate about b/c everyone has opinions and preferences. To pay for my university degrees I worked weekends as a roady, sound and lights in the 70's so I had plenty of opportunity to audition pro and home audio gear. I still have contacts in the industry and have access to pretty much any pro gear that I want to listen to. In regards to the amount of tube gear, full time I worked for 12 years in a company that manufactured and distributed audio gear. Back then they had a huge tube testing and manufacturing facility so I had ready access to all sorts of tube based equipment. Through the late 70s' and early 80's I used to buy, refurbish, tube role and tune gear, all the time searching for the sound that I liked. I finally found what I wanted in a 25 WPC Class A solid state amp and whilst I have revisited tube amps and pre amps many times since they still display the symptoms that I moved away from. I'm sure if I searched hard enough I'd probably find a tube amp that I liked, but it would sound solid state like so why would I bother with the tube associated hassles? Cheers Gary Interesting Gary...roadie...and with your college background you should have written a book. I'm sure there are some stories buried back in the 70's. 8-) Everyone has there own poison. Tubes/SS it boils down to the individual and what they like to hear. I have two friends that recently purchased speakers...FOCAL FLOORSTANDING and WARFARDALE MONITORS both speakers IMHO sound bright. However that is the sound to my friends likening. In fact one of the two (FOCAL) doesn't like bass at all. I don't understand it but My friends stick by their guns and are enjoying what they hear. Frankly I have had to walk out of their rooms b/c my ears could not take that brightness. It was so annoying. Again to each their own. I am happy with my system and feel it is very well balanced. If I had to change anything I wish I had a little bigger room. I do not look at tubes as a hassle, in fact I like participating setting the bias. I check it twice, three X's maybe and enjoy the music. Whatever label people put on it. Smooth, lifelike, it's all there for me and honestly I have had several systems along life's journey and more people have complimented me more with my 2channel tube system then with any 2channel SS. I let the music do the talking. Nice chatting Gary...maybe someday you will come back to the light...8-) |
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Post by frenchyfranky on Jan 30, 2016 16:25:17 GMT -5
30 years ago, my friend had a small audiophile stereo shop here in Montreal, he retails some exotic products at this time, to name a few; Snell Acoustic, Counterpoint Audio, Meitner, J.A. Michell, Musical Fidelity, Sonic Frontiers, Bryston, Forté Audio, Acoustat, etc,. We were always impressed by tubes electronic for their lives performances, our preferred products were the hybrid hi-end Counterpoint Audio preamp and mono power amp. I was dreaming to own it, but at this time it wasn't affordable for me. The time period passing, one year, two years, and we realized that the sounds of tubes change slowly through the years and became not so pleasant to our ears, something changes but we couldn't point exactly what, the tubes are still playing but not so tight, precise, fast, and live like. My friend, the shop owner's, decided to invest in tube replacement and changed it all, don't remember the exact amount but it was a thousand and a few hundred dollars, 30 years ago it represent a significant amount. The sounds immediately jump to the higher level of live, pleasant and astonishing experience we are expecting. At this point we understand that the tubes slowly change their performances in time of use and it's vicious because your ears brain slowly conditioning your appreciation with what you Daily heard, until you noticed that something is definitely changed (approx. 1 1/2 to 2 years). At this time I decided that I will never owned tubes electronic, even if I found that it sounds great, because I will always suspect and asking me if the tubes isn't at is best with the time and the only way to know is to replace it all at every period of appropriately a year. Don't get me wrong, I don't have any bias over tube lovers but I simply think that it's not for me. Counterpoint Audio   |
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harri009
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Post by harri009 on Jan 30, 2016 17:02:08 GMT -5
The best and the worst gear I have ever owned were both tube products. SS is generally never bad, but only a few times has it sounded great, and generally had a tube Pre in front of the SS amp. I currently think my current setup is the best tubes have to offer. It's pretty expensive but it does give me the best of both worlds, even though it's a full tube setup. Yes tubes do degrade over time, I try to replace my tubes about once a year or so, sometimes they last a little longer. I despise tube noise so the first sign of any hiss or hum and the tubes are getting changed. If I was first getting into tube I would get a good tube preamp and go from there. One thing I have found is the cheaper the tube product the more coloration it has. The worst I have ever heard was made from a guy who is no longer in business but a lot of people loved his pre's. I though surely so many love it that it will be great.. Wrong. Most colored dark sounding piece I have owned. I am not into tubes to roll off my highs. I like them because they sound more realistic, which I my ultimate goal.
PS: to replace all the tubes in my system is about $550 a year. That's pre, phono, and monoblocks. We listen about half the day everyday though.
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Post by Gary Cook on Jan 30, 2016 17:17:44 GMT -5
Hi again Gary Cook - I can agree with you. If the absolute utmost fidelity to the source material is one's goal, then (in general) solid-state gear is more neutral. There are exceptions, but as Mr. Levkof said, accuracy can be done with transistors or (at greater cost) with tubes. But the source material is often far from "absolute fidelity" already. Mixing boards, microphones, mic placement, equalization, etc. have all already tampered with the original sound. Your own room imposes a huge additional "filter" on the recorded sound. Many, as you do, say that you have no control over those things, therefore do no further harm to the signal. Others take a contrary approach. Their claim is that whatever makes the original re recording sound best in their room is the correct option. I've been in both camps from time to time, but I'm currently leaning toward the latter approach - thus tubes. As has been mentioned, this debate (if we're debating preference, rather than fact) can continue endlessly. De gustibus non est disputandum! Boom absit inuria Which I think is appropriate Boom, if not please excuse the rusty Latin  I've had the reverse journey, which does't make one direction right and another wrong, just personal choices. Music preferences definitely have an effect as well, for example I prefer a tenor sax accurately reproduced, whereas someone who listens to a lot of symphony orchestras may not have the same view. Similarly someone who listens to a lot of heavy metal. My tastes are pretty eclectic, so accuracy ends up being the common ground, if as a result a bad recording sounds bad then so be it. dum vivimus, vivamus Gary |
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Post by Gary Cook on Jan 30, 2016 17:26:11 GMT -5
30 years ago, my friend had a small audiophile stereo shop here in Montreal, he retails some exotic products at this time, to name a few; Snell Acoustic, Counterpoint Audio, Meitner, J.A. Michell, Musical Fidelity, Sonic Frontiers, Bryston, Forté Audio, Acoustat, etc,. We were always impressed by tubes electronic for their lives performances, our preferred products were the hybrid hi-end Counterpoint Audio preamp and mono power amp. I was dreaming to own it, but at this time it wasn't affordable for me. The time period passing, one year, two years, and we realized that the sounds of tubes change slowly through the years and became not so pleasant to our ears, something changes but we couldn't point exactly what, the tubes are still playing but not so tight, precise, fast, and live like. My friend, the shop owner's, decided to invest in tube replacement and changed it all, don't remember the exact amount but it was a thousand and a few hundred dollars, 30 years ago it represent a significant amount. The sounds immediately jump to the higher level of live, pleasant and astonishing experience we are expecting. At this point we understand that the tubes slowly change their performances in time of use and it's vicious because your ears brain slowly conditioning your appreciation with what you Daily heard, until you noticed that something is definitely changed (approx. 1 1/2 to 2 years). At this time I decided that I will never owned tubes electronic, even if I found that it sounds great, because I will always suspect and asking me if the tubes isn't at is best with the time and the only way to know is to replace it all at every period of appropriately a year. Don't get me wrong, I don't have any bias over tube lovers but I simply think that it's not for me. Vous avez raison, Francois Tubes have a warm up time, burn in time and burn out time. I've had plenty of experiences where I'm not sure exactly whereabouts in the life cycle the tubes are. In a professional environment I used to just stick in a new set of tubes and burn them in ready for the next gig. Plus I carried a spare set of tubes and/or a spare amp already burnt in. I just couldn't afford to stop a live performance while I changed tubes, I would have ended up with Fender between the eyes from the band and a lynching from the audience. Cheers Gary |
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Post by audiobill on Jan 30, 2016 17:36:15 GMT -5
So, Gary, why did you guys use tube equipment at all?
Could sonics have had anything to do with it?
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Post by Gary Cook on Jan 30, 2016 18:51:42 GMT -5
So, Gary, why did you guys use tube equipment at all? Could sonics have had anything to do with it? I had no choice, no say, the band chose their amplifiers. But that's not the only reason, I used what was available at the time, in a pro environment it was tubes which gradually migrated to Class AB solid state amplifiers and more recently Class D amplifiers. Sound effects where pretty much all solid state, analogue of course. For home equipment, well it was what I was used to, plus I had ready access to as much tube gear as I wanted to try out, for a long as ai wanted. I chose a few, actually a lot, over the years that I liked at the time. But gradually I found that solid state gear was sounding more to my liking, most likely a combination of my tastes changing as well as improvements in the gear itself. Plus I was over the continuous tube maintenance requirements, my gear works 8 to 10 hours a day every day. Obviously I revisit tube gear every now and then, plus I used to work quite a bit on servicing tube gear for my muso friends, which of course needs a good testing before returning. I check that my tastes haven't reverted and/or tube gear hasn't aligned with my unchanged tastes, neither of which so far has been the case. Let me finish on this, I don't believe that there is a solid state amp that could be made to sound remotely like a Kornford tube guitar amplifier. They are just unique and give a sound that for the right music played on the right guitar (a Gibson Les Paul) is heaven on a stick  Cheers Gary |
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Post by pedrocols on Jan 30, 2016 19:28:09 GMT -5
Every time there is a thread about anybody liking tubes there are always people arguing why they don't. Kind of pathetic if you ask me...
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Post by frenchyfranky on Jan 30, 2016 20:06:18 GMT -5
Every time there is a thread about anybody liking tubes there are always people arguing why they don't. Kind of pathetic if you ask me... If you read me correctly I just said that it sounds great but for practical reasons over the time it's not for me. Please do not distort reality before clearly understand what happened. |
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Post by copperpipe on Jan 30, 2016 20:10:43 GMT -5
Every time there is a thread about anybody liking tubes there are always people arguing why they don't. Kind of pathetic if you ask me... To be fair, the same can be said about any thread here; think how often TIDAL streaming comes up in a media server thread, just for example; don't be so prickly  |
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Post by pedrocols on Jan 30, 2016 20:10:48 GMT -5
Every time there is a thread about anybody liking tubes there are always people arguing why they don't. Kind of pathetic if you ask me... If you read me correctly I just said that it sounds great but for practical reasons over the time it's not for me. Please do not distort reality before clearly understand what happened. Huh! |
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Post by frenchyfranky on Jan 30, 2016 20:18:34 GMT -5
If you read me correctly I just said that it sounds great but for practical reasons over the time it's not for me. Please do not distort reality before clearly understand what happened. Huh! Come on kid! Be mature. |
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Post by pedrocols on Jan 30, 2016 20:21:17 GMT -5
If you felt like I was calling you out with my post I have no control over that. It is mature to accept the facts so you can start being the role model. |
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Post by jlafrenz on Jan 31, 2016 12:19:26 GMT -5
Time to move on from the bickering.
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Post by Talley on Jan 31, 2016 12:48:47 GMT -5
tubes and electrostatics excel at natural instruments (strings, voice, cymbals) Their resolution cannot be compared. Solid state brings benefits to amplified instruments. My uncle has both for this reason. Krell FPB-350mcx monoblocks for solid state and Audio Research Ref-600s for tube all though tube preamps. Attachments:
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Post by pedrocols on Jan 31, 2016 13:10:55 GMT -5
Time to move on from the bickering. Precisely! |
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Post by garbulky on Jan 31, 2016 13:43:52 GMT -5
tubes and electrostatics excel at natural instruments (strings, voice, cymbals) Their resolution cannot be compared. Solid state brings benefits to amplified instruments. My uncle has both for this reason. Krell FPB-350mcx monoblocks for solid state and Audio Research Ref-600s for tube all though tube preamps. Are those baskets room treatments of some sort?! |
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