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Post by brutiarti on Mar 9, 2016 14:48:04 GMT -5
As suggested by a member here, Im looking at these products, dont get me wrong I do love my Emo gear but im thinking maybe a tube preamp with my vinyl set-up. Im guessing no 30 day trial? Dont know if ill like the sound, but I do know that if I step in with something cheap, thats what it will sound like. Like when I purchased my Rega RP 6 with the Exact cartridge, cheaper rige would not have satisfied me. Do you have experience? What are your thoughts? Should I gamble in hopes that I like it? Is Primaluna a good honest value like I consider Emotiva? Should I ba asking elsewhere? I ask here because I trust my friends on this forum, not so much at others. Thanks all. I have a primaluna preamp and I think it is a fantastic piece of gear. I don't have much experience with other brands but my ears like how the prologue 2 sounds and I plan to keep it for a very long time. The only con is that it doesn't have a remote but I don't mind getting up to adjust the volume. Highly recommended |
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Post by jmilton on Mar 9, 2016 15:23:17 GMT -5
I recently reviewed a Raven Audio Nighthawk MK2 with a remote. American made and very nice sounding. Dave Thomas sent along several other NOS tube to switch out with it. Self biasing, so set it and forget it.
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Post by bluemeanies on Mar 9, 2016 16:56:24 GMT -5
Tube amplifiers have much more distortion than solid-state amplifiers, but most of it is second-order, which is quite musical. That's why it's called "harmonic" distortion.
Tube amplifiers overload gradually. Add more input and they distort more, but there is no precise level above or below which they suddenly start to clip.
Contrast this to solid state, where there is a very definite clipping point.
As mentioned I listen with my ears and could care less about measurements.
However if solid state is the musical food of choice...to each his own.
bon appetit
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Post by audiobill on Mar 9, 2016 17:10:59 GMT -5
All this talk about "distortion" is very misleading.........inaudible is inaudible.
Per Axiom:
"Axiom's tests of a wide range of male and female listeners of various ages with normal hearing showed that low-frequency distortion from a subwoofer or wide-range speaker with music signals is undetectable until it reaches gross levels approaching or exceeding the music playback levels. Only in the midrange does our hearing threshold for distortion detection become more acute. For detecting distortion at levels of less than 10%, the test frequencies had to be greater than 500 Hz. At 40 Hz, listeners accepted 100% distortion before they complained. The noise test tones had to reach 8,000 Hz and above before 1% distortion became audible, such is the masking effect of music. Anecdotal reports of listeners' ability to hear low frequency distortion with music programming are unsupported by the Axiom tests, at least until the distortion meets or exceeds the actual music playback level. "
Yes solid state may measure lower but that's not especially important IMO.
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Post by vcautokid on Mar 9, 2016 18:23:24 GMT -5
I had a Pro Logue 2 for some time, and I concur it is well made, and was delighted by it. I was running some Tung Sol 6550 to good effect. A friend of mine liked my Prima Luna allot. He bought from me. After that I went all Emotiva for the most part. I did have a Vincent Audio SA-T1 Preamplifier and enjoyed it too. Before it all went crazy expensive.
I bought my Prima Luna from Kevin Deal at Upscale Audio. Was a nice experience.
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Post by novisnick on Mar 9, 2016 19:58:17 GMT -5
But No one offers a 15 / 30 day trial? Anyone have a loner I can borrow?? Didnt hurt one bit to ask,,,,,,he,,,,,he,,,,,,he,,,,,,,, anybody???  |
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Post by audiosyndrome on Mar 10, 2016 14:23:45 GMT -5
All this talk about "distortion" is very misleading.........inaudible is inaudible. Per Axiom: "Axiom's tests of a wide range of male and female listeners of various ages with normal hearing showed that low-frequency distortion from a subwoofer or wide-range speaker with music signals is undetectable until it reaches gross levels approaching or exceeding the music playback levels. Only in the midrange does our hearing threshold for distortion detection become more acute. For detecting distortion at levels of less than 10%, the test frequencies had to be greater than 500 Hz. At 40 Hz, listeners accepted 100% distortion before they complained. The noise test tones had to reach 8,000 Hz and above before 1% distortion became audible, such is the masking effect of music. Anecdotal reports of listeners' ability to hear low frequency distortion with music programming are unsupported by the Axiom tests, at least until the distortion meets or exceeds the actual music playback level. " Yes solid state may measure lower but that's not especially important IMO. If the above is correct, why do tube amps and solid state amps sound different? In many cases very different. The answer; harmonic distortion and possibly the significant variation in frequency response due to the high output impedance of tube amps. I'm not familiar with the survey you quoted, and I know many members here are very happy with their Axioms. But Axiom's survey is a little like the fox guarding the chicken coup. In other words, were they trying to prove you don't need say SEAS drivers to keep the distortion down because you can't hear it? As many like to say here, the proof is in the listening. And you can certainly hear it IMHO. Russ |
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Post by audiobill on Mar 10, 2016 14:27:41 GMT -5
I agree with the audible differences.
They do sound better than my solid state amps did in the same system, and I don't think it's "distortion" that is responsible for the magnificent soundstage, precise imaging and natural midrange I enjoy from my tube amps every day.
To each his own, but I trust my ears in the final analysis.
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KeithL
Administrator 
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Post by KeithL on Mar 10, 2016 16:31:14 GMT -5
I'm trying to avoid an argument - but you keep begging the question.... If they sound different, and the difference ISN'T distortion, then what IS it? "Sound stage" and "imaging" aren't actually separate things - they are simply ways in which your brain interprets the sounds it hears. And so both could be "removed" from a recording if something alters the cues in that recording your brain needs to "hear" them. Likewise, both could be added to a recording if some device or equipment adds phony versions of the cues your brain is expecting to find. (Much as I can sit down with a pen and paper and draw a pair of pictures that your brain will "see" as a single 3D image... if I do it correctly.) And both could be altered if some device alters cues that are there in the recording. Bear in mind that there really is no such thing as magic... and nothing exists which inherently cannot be measured (only things that so far we have failed to measure). If two things both sound perfect, then they MUST sound the same - by definition. And, if you play the same recording on two systems, and the results sound different, then one or both must technically be incorrect. (Although the converse isn't necessarily true; two things could sound the same because they're wrong in exactly the same way.) Therefore, by logic.... If tube equipment and solid state equipment sound different, then either.... 1) tube equipment adds some sort of audible distortion that solid state equipment does not 2) solid state equipment adds some sort of audible distortion that tube equipment does not 3) both tube and solid state equipment add different forms of audible distortion that sound different Those are the ONLY possibilities that logic allows. I agree with the audible differences. They do sound better than my solid state amps did in the same system, and I don't think it's "distortion" that is responsible for the magnificent soundstage, precise imaging and natural midrange I enjoy from my tube amps every day. To each his own, but I trust my ears in the final analysis. |
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Post by audiobill on Mar 10, 2016 16:33:23 GMT -5
"only things that so far we have failed to measure"
Bingo, Keith, you're getting the hang of it!!!
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KeithL
Administrator
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Post by KeithL on Mar 10, 2016 16:45:18 GMT -5
But, then, isn't it about time we figured out what those things are that we need to measure so we can all discuss what they are, and which equipment has more or less of which ones, from a common starting point? "only things that so far we have failed to measure" Bingo, Keith, you're getting the hang of it!!! |
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Post by vcautokid on Mar 10, 2016 16:45:19 GMT -5
Well now I am going to do it. Tube Mono blocks....or does that belong in blurt it out?  Well if one is good, 2 must be better right? Than you have all the other stuff you like, whether it is silicon, or glass. You pick it, and make your music. Easy right? |
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Post by audiobill on Mar 10, 2016 17:00:54 GMT -5
But, then, isn't it about time we figured out what those things are that we need to measure so we can all discuss what they are, and which equipment has more or less of which ones, from a common starting point? "only things that so far we have failed to measure" Bingo, Keith, you're getting the hang of it!!! Who cares, just buy the sound you like.......this isn't rocket science, or doesn't have to be. The human ear is an amazing device in its own right. |
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guitarforlife
Sensei
Just another busy day in Northern Wisconsin.
Posts: 947
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Post by guitarforlife on Mar 10, 2016 17:16:29 GMT -5
But, then, isn't it about time we figured out what those things are that we need to measure so we can all discuss what they are, and which equipment has more or less of which ones, from a common starting point? Who cares, just buy the sound you like.......this isn't rocket science, or doesn't have to be. The human ear is an amazing device in its own right. Sometime we as humans get caught up not trusting our own self. We need validation from others. From those we perceive to know more then us. For example my mother would cook something and ask, does this taste good, Then she would say I thought it was good but wasn't sure. Or how many times do play something on guitar and thing is that good? And I'm sure these who paint hate most of what they paint. My point it is hard to just think, Wow that sounds good to me it must be good. I also believe good to one is not good to all. But if it is your system why would you care? |
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Post by audiobill on Mar 10, 2016 17:25:13 GMT -5
Keith, have you ever heard a tube amp you liked?
What was it you liked about it?
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Post by audiosyndrome on Mar 10, 2016 20:43:42 GMT -5
Bill- we're not arguing whether or not tube amps sound good. In some cases I think they do and Keith would probably agree. The point I brought up early on is that you're not listening to an accurate reproduction of the source media due to the high levels of distortion generated by the tube amp, not whether this sounds good or bad. That's the point I was making and I don't see how anyone can argue with that as tube amps do sound different than solid state amps.
I started this hobby in the early 60s; had plenty of tube amps but none since the late 80s.
Russ
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Post by novisnick on Mar 10, 2016 20:54:08 GMT -5
Bill- we're not arguing whether or not tube amps sound good. In some cases I think they do and Keith would probably agree. The point I brought up early on is that you're not listening to an accurate reproduction of the source media due to the high levels of distortion generated by the tube amp, not whether this sounds good or bad. That's the point I was making and I don't see how anyone can argue with that as tube amps do sound different than solid state amps. I started this hobby in the early 60s; had plenty of tube amps but none since the late 80s. Russ I dont want to speak out of turn,,,,,,,,,and I've never had or heard a tube anything with the exception of a live band or very old am radio. That said, your talking accurate? What is accurate outside of a live performance?? Im in earnest. Even libe recordings are almoyalways messed with by engineers or producers etc. So what does accurate mean?? A note blown into a horn on stage in front of me,,,,,,that's accurate, no? A string plucked and ran through a mixer and adjusted, it's accurate to the mixers liking! So Im just missing your point of accurate. Im not correct in my assumption? While Im at it, what is definition of accurate when it comes to music? Y'all know me, im not looking for a fight or argument, just some education and conversation. Thanks |
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Post by monkumonku on Mar 10, 2016 21:14:24 GMT -5
Bill- we're not arguing whether or not tube amps sound good. In some cases I think they do and Keith would probably agree. The point I brought up early on is that you're not listening to an accurate reproduction of the source media due to the high levels of distortion generated by the tube amp, not whether this sounds good or bad. That's the point I was making and I don't see how anyone can argue with that as tube amps do sound different than solid state amps. I started this hobby in the early 60s; had plenty of tube amps but none since the late 80s. Russ I dont want to speak out of turn,,,,,,,,,and I've never had or heard a tube anything with the exception of a live band or very old am radio. That said, your talking accurate? What is accurate outside of a live performance?? Im in earnest. Even libe recordings are almoyalways messed with by engineers or producers etc. So what does accurate mean?? A note blown into a horn on stage in front of me,,,,,,that's accurate, no? A string plucked and ran through a mixer and adjusted, it's accurate to the mixers liking! So Im just missing your point of accurate. Im not correct in my assumption? While Im at it, what is definition of accurate when it comes to music? Y'all know me, im not looking for a fight or argument, just some education and conversation. Thanks I don't want to speak out of turn either but since you did first then I'll follow. I think what he means is an accurate reproduction of the signal on the media, not of the original performance. In other words, how much does tube equipment provide a "straight wire with gain" from whatever the signal is on the CD or other file that is being played back. In that respect, tubes add distortion that solid state gear does not. This has nothing to do with which version is preferred, but only that there is a distortion added. Solid state distorts that signal as well, but not necessarily in the same way. |
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Post by audiobill on Mar 10, 2016 21:18:18 GMT -5
"The point I brought up early on is that you're not listening to an accurate reproduction of the source media due to the high levels of distortion generated by the tube amp,"
Thanks, Russ, I know you'll agree that if a very low level of thd in a solid state amp is achieved by applying high levels of negative feedback, sonics may very well suffer.
Thus, maybe misleading to look at this spec alone. In my long experience, specs should be relied on very cautiously when evaluating an amplifier, they can be opmized at the expense of sonics.
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Post by monkumonku on Mar 10, 2016 22:57:22 GMT -5
"The point I brought up early on is that you're not listening to an accurate reproduction of the source media due to the high levels of distortion generated by the tube amp," Thanks, Russ, I know you'll agree that if a very low level of thd in a solid state amp is achieved by applying high levels of negative feedback, sonics may very well suffer. Thus, maybe misleading to look at this spec alone. In my long experience, specs should be relied on very cautiously when evaluating an amplifier, they can be opmized at the expense of sonics. Well we can argue about solid state versus tubes forever but in the end, I agree that our ears should be what leads us to making a decision. Some like tubes, some like SS, some like both. What's the big deal?  |
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Well if one is good, 2 must be better right? Than you have all the other stuff you like, whether it is silicon, or glass. You pick it, and make your music. Easy right?
