Tell me about Primaluna.

[brubacca]

This tubes vs ss thing is so overplayed. Listen for yourself. Listen to something you can afford. If you like all SS great. If you like all tube great. If you like a mix, great. All these discussions about accuracy and distortion don't mean much in the end. This hobby is about enjoying the sound.

If that is a bose/Sony setup great. In my case Rogue Audio/Sonus Faber. So yes, I am in the tubes camp. In the end it doesn't matter. Just go listen to some music.

[ocezam]

Mar 6, 2016 6:44:34 GMT -5 brubacca said:

You specifically asked about PrimaLuna so here goes.

I had one experience with a PrinaLuna product. I auditioned a Prologue Premium integrated amp. It was built well and sounded really good on jazz and blues style music. It was quite amazing. My memory is a magical midrange and no bass. I attribute that to the power tubes in the amp which were el34.

Summing up- Great Build quality, very good sound, audition required. Designed in Holland and built in China (I believe). Nice products, good prices. I felt that the tube pre-a,p was a bit expensive comparred to the integrated.

I'll also put in a plug for Rogue Audio. The new RP-1 is said to have a phenominal phono stage. I had a brief listen and it sounded really good.

Look at the Rogue Audio Atlas Magnum. Excellent stereo amp. Great price.
www.rogueaudio.com/Products_Atlas_Magnum.htm

[ocezam]

Mar 10, 2016 16:31:14 GMT -5 KeithL said:

I'm trying to avoid an argument - but you keep begging the question....
If they sound different, and the difference ISN'T distortion, then what IS it?

You do know what the difference is. And it is harmonic distortion. Some tubes make more, some less. Some make much less. Some tube amps make such little harmonic distortion, they sound VERY much like solid state amps. Some tube guys like a bunch of it. Some like very little. There's no point in measuring it. A person would still need to listen to decide if a particular amp fell into the range of his personal tastes. And yes Keith you are also correct that generally tubes do not make as accurate bass as solid state. Although my Carver's control my woofers pretty darn well, I still prefer to actively bi-amp and have my SS Emotiva XPRs run my subs. Best of both worlds IMO.

No personal offense here, but I never can get it out of my head that you are one of the primary reasons Emotiva has all but abandoned plans to manufacture tube products. Every time there is a tube thread you jump in with the same arguments against them. I seriously doubt any audio enthusiast who has been in the hobby long enough to be interested in tubes isn't aware of the pros and cons of the technology. I think it's a shame Emotiva hasn't brought their tubes to market. I think they would sell very well.

While you and I disagree on tubes, we agree 100% on vinyl. I personally do not understand the infatuation with vinyl, but I do not jump into every vinyl thread and regurgitate all of the reasons I dislike the medium.

Peace

[mgbpuff]

Amplifier design that seeks to amplify a small signal input into a large signal output with absolute accuracy except for the amplification factor itself is very complicated (maybe even more complicated than rocket science except for relanding a rocket stage on a barge ). There is no end to continued amplifier refinement just like there is no end to a infinite mathematical series except that we cut it off at distortions below that of human perception (but that level is arguable due to dissimilar human sense perception). Tubes actually have a more linear characteristic curve than most solid state devices and that (besides the fact that they were invented first) means that a reasonably simple amplifier open loop circuit can be designed with tubes and very few components that sounds pleasant, thus the simple SET designs appeared. Power output of SETs is quite limited so push pull and multiple stage architecture was developed. Open loop designs mean that you have no way to compensate for characteristic curves that have some non linearity in them. Feedback which can be used to perfect the accuracy of the output waveform is rather difficult to accomplish with tubes (pentodes have extra control elements used in ultralinear circuits which is a type of feedback circuit.) Feedback is easier to use with solid state devices, in fact feedback is almost mandatory with solid state due to their more non linear characteristic curves . Feedback can be used to reduce distortion to very low levels. So feedback plus the fact that interfacing solid state designs to loads does not involve output transformers as tube circuits demand (o.k. there are OTL tube circuits that eliminate transformers but they are very complicated and more expensive). Feedback is good but can be overdone but if so, that is simply bad design. There are many other aspects to consider such as transportation delays and overall speed of devices. But an amplifier that delivers an output than is an exact copy of an input signal except for the amplification is not detectable to the human ear or other senses as to the nature of the components in the box that contains the circuitry. The closer to perfection, the higher that cost to produce, so there is a practical end to amp design, but there is no theoretical end. And then there is the non linear approach to amplification, namely digital or Class D which I won't even get into here again!

[audiobill]

"No personal offense here, but I never can get it out of my head that you are one of the primary reasons Emotiva has all but abandoned plans to manufacture tube products. Every time there is a tube thread you jump in with the same arguments against them. I seriously doubt any audio enthusiast who has been in the hobby long enough to be interested in tubes isn't aware of the pros and cons of the technology."

I have often wondered what Keith would have to say if Emo did come out with tube amps.....It's very clear he doesn't like them, and maybe lets that personal preference "color" his thinking.

Yesterday, I asked if he'd ever heard a tube amp he liked, and what he liked about it, but haven't seen a response.

I know he has to defend what emo sells, but this is supposed to be an open discussion forum I guess.

[KeithL]

I actually have a whole bunch of things I do beyond hang out in the forums - so sometimes it takes me a while to answer.

First off, to answer your initial question, I got interested in audio in the days when tube equipment was just being replaced by early solid state equipment (the Dynaco Stereo 120, the Stereo 400, and the Phase Linear 4000 were "current" models). And, back in those days, a lot of the solid state equipment did in fact sound really bad. So, yes, back then, I most certainly heard a lot of tube equipment that sounded better than a lot of solid state equipment. For example, Dynaco's PAS-3 preamp (their last tube model) sounded a lot better than their solid state replacement (the PAT-4). However, as my tastes evolved, I started to favor accurate and uncolored sound, and solid state equipment improved pretty rapidly. I think the first piece of serious solid state equipment that I bought new was a Dynaco SCA-120. (For the record, I've owned at least fifty tube amplifiers - I used to buy them at flea markets and repair for resale them when I was in high school. I know how to design them, how to fix them, and what makes them tick. I think that the technology involved is cool, and they're fun to work on.) And, every now and then, I buy a piece of new or vintage tube gear out of nostalgia - but I haven't kept one yet. (I also tend to prioritize things like low distortion and low noise over things like sound stage and wide imaging - which is simply a personal preference.) And, to answer your question directly, while I've certainly heard tube equipment that I can listen to, I haven't heard a piece of tube equipment that I think sounds better than a good piece of solid state equipment in about thirty years. (I've heard a few high end tube preamps that I find perfectly lovely, but it's because they sound neutral, and I wouldn't even have known they used tubes if I hadn't been told; it's not because they sounded like tubes.) 

And, no, when tube equipment sounds noticeably different than its solid state counterpart, I don't ever recall preferring the way the tubes sounded any time recently. Every tube power amp I've heard recently has sounded noticeably different from a clean solid state design, and, in every case I can think of, the solid state design has sounded more neutral - and I've personally preferred it. I auditioned a Schiit Lyr - but I like the Asgard much better; the Carver power amps sound nice, and pretty neutral, FOR TUBE AMPS, but I don't like them nearly as well, or find them as neutral or accurate, as our XPA's or XPR's. (I would make the single exception that I think some models of headphones sound better with certain tube headphone amps than with most solid state equivalents.)

However, you're entirely off-base on your other suggestion. I believe in variety, and, as long as we have customers who want tube equipment, I am all in favor of producing it for them. (Just as I think motorcycles are cool, even though I have no desire to drive one, I think designing and servicing tube equipment is fun.) The simple reality is that, while there is enthusiastic support for tube equipment from a few of our customers, it just doesn't seem like we'd sell ENOUGH tube amps to justify spending the minimum up-front cost to put them into production.

The other reason, and I'm going to put this where it belongs - on the customers - is that tube equipment is relatively expensive to produce; yet the competition has gotten cheaper, and fewer and fewer customers have your apparent willingness to pay fair prices for it. When we acquired the Carver line, they were selling a few amplifiers a month for relatively high prices; yet when we proposed to sell the exact same models for half their previous prices, many of our customers indicated that "they were hoping for much lower prices" (we had actually hoped we might be able to sell twice as many if we halved the price). All of this contributes to a legitimate concern on our part that there simply isn't much of a market for even reasonably priced tube equipment. The reality is that we are a business, and so we're going to focus on the products that we figure a lot of our customers want and will buy.

And, finally, you seem to be taking even the suggestion that what differentiates tube equipment from solid state is simply distortion very defensively. The difference between wine and water is mostly that wine contains all sorts of decomposition products from spoiled grapes (and it sounds pretty bad when you say it that way). However, that doesn't prevent people from enjoying wine, and it doesn't prevent some wines from being better tasting than others. Several popular pieces of studio equipment were designed specifically to add second harmonic distortion to audio tracks (the most popular is probably the Aphex 204 and its predecessors); in fact, adding second harmonic distortion is known to improve intelligibility in some situations, and has even been used for that purpose in applications ranging from record albums, to public address systems, to expensive hearing aids. The reason I keep harping on measurements, and on knowing what causes the differences you're hearing, is simply expediency. There are thousands of amplifiers and preamps in the world - and none of us has time to listen to more than a tiny percentage of them. Measurements are a way we can pre-screen equipment to narrow down what we listen to, and a way we can describe the way it sounds to each other without resorting to ambiguous adjectives that mean different things to different people. Assumptions are simply inefficient. (For example, I can absolutely find a tube preamp that you would hate - because it is very accurate and uncolored, sounds exactly like a good solid state preamp, and has none of the colorations normally associated with tube sound. Likewise, I wouldn't rule out the possibility that, somewhere out there, someone has built a solid state preamp that precisely mimics the sound of tubes - and actually gotten it right. Wouldn't you like to be able to tell from the specs which one is worth your time to listen to and which one isn't?)

(And, I feel obligated to point out that, if the biggest difference you're hearing really is second harmonic distortion, then, unlike tube equipment, the Aphex 204 allows you to control the amount and character of the distortion introduced, and to vary it precisely to suit each individual track you're playing, and it costs a lot less than all but the cheapest tube equipment - and you can use it with any preamp and power amp you like.)

Mar 11, 2016 9:16:03 GMT -5 audiobill said:

"No personal offense here, but I never can get it out of my head that you are one of the primary reasons Emotiva has all but abandoned plans to manufacture tube products. Every time there is a tube thread you jump in with the same arguments against them. I seriously doubt any audio enthusiast who has been in the hobby long enough to be interested in tubes isn't aware of the pros and cons of the technology."

I have often wondered what Keith would have to say if Emo did come out with tube amps.....It's very clear he doesn't like them, and lets that personal preference "color" his thinking.

Yesterday, I asked if he'd ever heard a tube amp he liked, and what he liked about it, but haven't seen a response.

I know he has to defend what emo sells, but this is supposed to be an open discussion forum I guess.

[audiobill]

Thank you for your response.

[brubacca]

Keith:

I find this part very interesting...

"The other reason, and I'm going to put this where it belongs - on the customers - is that tube equipment is relatively expensive to produce; yet the competition has gotten cheaper, and fewer and fewer customers have your apparent willingness to pay fair prices for it. When we acquired the Carver line, they were selling a few amplifiers a month for relatively high prices; yet when we proposed to sell the exact same models for half their previous prices, many of our customers indicated that "they were hoping for much lower prices" (we had actually hoped we might be able to sell twice as many if we halved the price). All of this contributes to a legitimate concern on our part that there simply isn't much of a market for even reasonably priced tube equipment."

I have to admit this is the kind of business insight that I think a lot of us here would benefit from. There are several projects that we were excited about (well I was at least). In the old days when you guys talked about those things it would have been really cool to hear things like the above, instead of them just going off into oblivion. I think that most of us here want Emotiva to succeed and sometimes our hopes for pricing may just not be realistic (pointing finger at myself).

I also realize that in a competitive marketplace you have to be wary of giving the competition too much info.

[KeithL]

I agree with you absolutely here... right up to the point where conclusions become assumptions.

You are absolutely correct that, if a lot of feedback is used to reduce certain types of distortion, the result MAY be truly awful sound.

However, the reason isn't at all mysterious (even though it might have been in 1976.) The reason is that, by using heavy feedback to reduce distortion IN DESIGNS WITH AN INSUFFICIENT SLEW RATE, you reduce the amount of lower order harmonics, but at the cost of increasing higher order harmonics. And, because higher order harmonics are more discordant, it's a bad tradeoff - because even smaller amounts of higher order harmonics sound worse - while relatively large quantities of lower order harmonics don't sound especially annoying - and may even sound "good" under some circumstances.

Therefore, you're entirely right - you can't always tell what an amplifier will sound like by looking at the THD (TOTAL harmonic distortion) spec. In order to predict how an amplifier will sound based on distortion measurements you need to look at the actual spectrum showing the relative levels of the first several harmonics. (And, since both modern solid state circuits and tube circuits have "typical" distortion spectra, you can get some vague idea of how a unit will sound by knowing whether it's tube or solid state. However, it isn't conclusive, and not all units of either type will necessarily be "typical" - so you can still in fact tell more accurately by looking at the measurements - if you know how to interpret them.)

The other thing is that there is still in fact a context. For example, when talking about THD, a tube amplifier with 5% THD will almost certainly sound better than a solid state amplifier with 5% THD (because, TYPICALLY, the tube amp will be producing mostly second harmonic, while the solid state amp will be producing a significant amount of third harmonic). However, if you had a tube amplifier and a solid state amplifier, each of which was producing 0.01% THD, then you wouldn't notice any difference at all - because 0.01% THD isn't audible - regardless of which harmonics it consists of. But, in this case, the context is also that many solid state amplifiers can achieve 0.01% THD, but I have never yet heard of a tube amplifier that was that low in distortion.

Mar 10, 2016 21:18:18 GMT -5 audiobill said:

"The point I brought up early on is that you're not listening to an accurate reproduction of the source media due to the high levels of distortion generated by the tube amp,"

Thanks, Russ, I know you'll agree that if a very low level of thd in a solid state amp is achieved by applying high levels of negative feedback, sonics may very well suffer.

Thus, maybe misleading to look at this spec alone. In my long experience, specs should be relied on very cautiously when evaluating an amplifier, they can be opmized at the expense of sonics.

[monkumonku]

Mar 11, 2016 10:35:49 GMT -5 brubacca said:

Keith:

I find this part very interesting...

"The other reason, and I'm going to put this where it belongs - on the customers - is that tube equipment is relatively expensive to produce; yet the competition has gotten cheaper, and fewer and fewer customers have your apparent willingness to pay fair prices for it. When we acquired the Carver line, they were selling a few amplifiers a month for relatively high prices; yet when we proposed to sell the exact same models for half their previous prices, many of our customers indicated that "they were hoping for much lower prices" (we had actually hoped we might be able to sell twice as many if we halved the price). All of this contributes to a legitimate concern on our part that there simply isn't much of a market for even reasonably priced tube equipment."

I have to admit this is the kind of business insight that I think a lot of us here would benefit from. There are several projects that we were excited about (well I was at least). In the old days when you guys talked about those things it would have been really cool to hear things like the above, instead of them just going off into oblivion. I think that most of us here want Emotiva to succeed and sometimes our hopes for pricing may just not be realistic (pointing finger at myself).

I also realize that in a competitive marketplace you have to be wary of giving the competition too much info.

I think many of us have gotten spoiled by Emotiva's reasonable pricing. That's how I initially got started on ruining my wallet, when I ran across the XPA-3 on sale for $499. That was my first big "high-end" audio purchase and the first of many Emo purchases. Compared to the competition, Emo's pricing was much lower for gear of excellent quality.

When they announced the Carver line, I was eager to see what sort of pricing they would offer. Although it was much lower than prior to the acquisition, it was still too expensive for me so even though I was curious about the tube gear, it was over my budget. I confess to being one of those that was hoping for much lower prices. But that sort of hope or expectation is not practical or realistic. Good tube gear is not cheap. Even though people in this Lounge can point to inexpensive examples, you're talking about products made in China during a time when Emo was in the process of moving its manufacturing of new products to the U.S.

And now we've gotten so spoiled by the historically low pricing and frequent sales, that the increased prices of the current line plus even higher prices of the coming gear seems shocking - even though it still is very reasonable for what you get compared to the competition. We're a bunch of price-sensitive people and that's just human nature.

Keith's take on Emo producing tube gear makes sense to me. It has to be profitable to engage in it but at the prices they'd have to charge for quality products, the demand isn't there. People love to talk about what they want, like healthier food at restaurants, but when it actually becomes available, the number who actually follow through is usually a whole lot less than the number who were talking.

[sounder]

Mar 9, 2016 10:56:27 GMT -5 audiosyndrome said:

Nov- I've never heard any of the Primaluna pres or amps, and I have nothing against tube equipment BUT. Check out any of the Primaluna reviews and their measurements in Stereophile. "Not bad for a tube amp" according to Atkinson. But to me terrible. You're listening to all sorts of harmonic distortion which many people may find pleasing but you're not listening to what's on your media IMO.

Russ

Ah, so very nice of you to criticize what you haven't heard. I'll disagree with you and invite you to give it a listen. Form your own opinion, then feel free to criticize. I think you'll be quite surprised. 

[sounder]

Mar 6, 2016 0:37:09 GMT -5 novisnick said:

As suggested by a member here, Im looking at these products, dont get me wrong I do love my Emo gear but im thinking maybe a tube preamp with my vinyl set-up.

Im guessing no 30 day trial? Dont know if ill like the sound, but I do know that if I step in with something cheap, thats what it will sound like.

Like when I purchased my Rega RP 6 with the Exact cartridge, cheaper rige would not have satisfied me.

Do you have experience? What are your thoughts? Should I gamble in hopes that I like it? Is Primaluna a good honest value like I consider Emotiva?

Should I ba asking elsewhere?
I ask here because I trust my friends on this forum, not so much at others.

Thanks all.

You guys are having an argument that is no help to th OP. Nick came asking for some sage advice and after three pages, only a few people actual answered his question. I love my PL amp. The others who chimed in like theirs too. I would also agree that Rogue seems to make some very fine equipment. I chose PL over Rogue because I think PL is easier on tubes, so it will all last longer. Maybe, maybe not. 

Nick I suggest finding a dealer to check it out. Or, find a friend who can show you theirs. (Yes, I heard it). You can let your ears decide.  I'd also suggest calling Upscale Audio and talk to Kevin. I bet they do have a liberal return policy, but I don't know for sure.
 
As for PL I challenge you to find anyone who says it's unreliable. I've read a lot and never heard a bad word. That says something to me.  Even emotiva has people who complain about quality control. Not saying PL is perfect... Just well made. 

If if you're ever in Minneapolis, you're welcome to listen to my system. 

[novisnick]

Mar 12, 2016 11:04:01 GMT -5 sounder said:

Mar 6, 2016 0:37:09 GMT -5 novisnick said:

As suggested by a member here, Im looking at these products, dont get me wrong I do love my Emo gear but im thinking maybe a tube preamp with my vinyl set-up.

Im guessing no 30 day trial? Dont know if ill like the sound, but I do know that if I step in with something cheap, thats what it will sound like.

Like when I purchased my Rega RP 6 with the Exact cartridge, cheaper rige would not have satisfied me.

Do you have experience? What are your thoughts? Should I gamble in hopes that I like it? Is Primaluna a good honest value like I consider Emotiva?

Should I ba asking elsewhere?
I ask here because I trust my friends on this forum, not so much at others.

Thanks all.

You guys are having an argument that is no help to th OP. Nick came asking for some sage advice and after three pages, only a few people actual answered his question. I love my PL amp. The others who chimed in like theirs too. I would also agree that Rogue seems to make some very fine equipment. I chose PL over Rogue because I think PL is easier on tubes, so it will all last longer. Maybe, maybe not. 

Nick I suggest finding a dealer to check it out. Or, find a friend who can show you theirs. (Yes, I heard it). You can let your ears decide.  I'd also suggest calling Upscale Audio and talk to Kevin. I bet they do have a liberal return policy, but I don't know for sure.
 
As for PL I challenge you to find anyone who says it's unreliable. I've read a lot and never heard a bad word. That says something to me.  Even emotiva has people who complain about quality control. Not saying PL is perfect... Just well made. 

If if you're ever in Minneapolis, you're welcome to listen to my system. 

Thank you so much for your sage advice. I just may make that call, on Kevin and someday on you.
I may take boomzilla up on his generosity and borrow his Preamp ( don't think I can afford to make that purchase though )
many of us have this problem,,,,,,,,do we want to experience what we can't have??,,,,,,or shouldn't afford,,,,,,he,,,,,he,,,,,he,,,,,,

[brubacca]

I would say don't try that McIntosh unless you can afford it. Try something you can afford. PrimaLuna is a good brand, so is Rogue. According to AudioBill so is tubes4hifi.
Don't be shy about the Prima Luna. It's been around about a decade now with a good track record.

[audiobill]

An interesting comparison between the Bob Latino/VTA ST120 and the McIntosh MC275 (4x the price):

dynacotubeaudio.forumotion.com/t1930-comparing-my-vta-st-120-with-my-mcintosh-mc275

[audiosyndrome]

Mar 12, 2016 10:48:13 GMT -5 sounder said:

Mar 9, 2016 10:56:27 GMT -5 audiosyndrome said:

Nov- I've never heard any of the Primaluna pres or amps, and I have nothing against tube equipment BUT. Check out any of the Primaluna reviews and their measurements in Stereophile. "Not bad for a tube amp" according to Atkinson. But to me terrible. You're listening to all sorts of harmonic distortion which many people may find pleasing but you're not listening to what's on your media IMO.

Russ

Ah, so very nice of you to criticize what you haven't heard. I'll disagree with you and invite you to give it a listen. Form your own opinion, then feel free to criticize. I think you'll be quite surprised. 

Excuse me but why do you think that I'm being critical. I pointed out right off that I've never heard any Primaluna equipment. But I did state that Primaluna measurements, as easily found in Stereophile, are pretty bad, even for a tube amp. That can't be argued, the proof is in the reviews. I never said Primaluna equipment sounds bad, only that they measure bad. One of the amps measured output impedance is 4-ohms!!! Pretty bad; the frequency response for that amp is all over the place. Let alone the harmonic distortion, also real bad.

People with technical backgrounds tend to like measurements. While you can't always predict how a pieced of equipment sounds from the measurements, one can get a good idea. For me, bad measurements equates to dissatisfaction in the long run. YMMV.

Russ

[brutiarti]

Mar 12, 2016 20:28:27 GMT -5 audiosyndrome said:

Mar 12, 2016 10:48:13 GMT -5 sounder said:

Ah, so very nice of you to criticize what you haven't heard. I'll disagree with you and invite you to give it a listen. Form your own opinion, then feel free to criticize. I think you'll be quite surprised. 

Excuse me but why do you think that I'm being critical. I pointed out right off that I've never heard any Primaluna equipment. But I did state that Primaluna measurements, as easily found in Stereophile, are pretty bad, even for a tube amp. That can't be argued, the proof is in the reviews. I never said Primaluna equipment sounds bad, only that they measure bad. One of the amps measured output impedance is 4-ohms!!! Pretty bad; the frequency response for that amp is all over the place. Let alone the harmonic distortion, also real bad.

People with technical backgrounds tend to like measurements. While you can't always predict how a pieced of equipment sounds from the measurements, one can get a good idea. For me, bad measurements equates to dissatisfaction in the long run. YMMV.

Russ

You really need to listen primaluna gear. I turned down several preamps worth 4 or 6 times the price of a primaluna preamp and I kept the primaluna every time. Just my 2 cents

[pedrocols]

Mar 12, 2016 20:28:27 GMT -5 audiosyndrome said:

Mar 12, 2016 10:48:13 GMT -5 sounder said:

Ah, so very nice of you to criticize what you haven't heard. I'll disagree with you and invite you to give it a listen. Form your own opinion, then feel free to criticize. I think you'll be quite surprised. 

Excuse me but why do you think that I'm being critical. I pointed out right off that I've never heard any Primaluna equipment. But I did state that Primaluna measurements, as easily found in Stereophile, are pretty bad, even for a tube amp. That can't be argued, the proof is in the reviews. I never said Primaluna equipment sounds bad, only that they measure bad. One of the amps measured output impedance is 4-ohms!!! Pretty bad; the frequency response for that amp is all over the place. Let alone the harmonic distortion, also real bad.

People with technical backgrounds tend to like measurements. While you can't always predict how a pieced of equipment sounds from the measurements, one can get a good idea. For me, bad measurements equates to dissatisfaction in the long run. YMMV.

Russ

Your argument is somewhat inaccurate and based in the assumption you are not going to like something based on Stereophile measurements and bad reviews? Personally, I would not make any YMMV arguments without listening first that is just plain silly!

[Deleted]

Mar 6, 2016 0:37:09 GMT -5 novisnick said:

As suggested by a member here, Im looking at these products, dont get me wrong I do love my Emo gear but im thinking maybe a tube preamp with my vinyl set-up.

Im guessing no 30 day trial? Dont know if ill like the sound, but I do know that if I step in with something cheap, thats what it will sound like.

Like when I purchased my Rega RP 6 with the Exact cartridge, cheaper rige would not have satisfied me.

Do you have experience? What are your thoughts? Should I gamble in hopes that I like it? Is Primaluna a good honest value like I consider Emotiva?

Should I ba asking elsewhere?
I ask here because I trust my friends on this forum, not so much at others.

Thanks all.

My answer is pointed directly at what for me is a 100% requirement (no exceptions) before I purchase any audio/video piece of equipment.  I must audition it in my room/my system and of course have guaranteed right of return if I'm not completely satisfied, no questions asked.  I can't believe how many folks will make a buying decision on how a component sounds in the dealers store or at a friends house.  There are way too many variables here to give me a precise idea how it will sound in my room/system.

So if the dealer will not let me return the item if I'm not satisfied or take a demo unit home for the evening after the store closes to audition or  I can't borrow the same exact model from a friend, then no deal, I will not make the purchase.

This Nut-Policy of mine has saved me a number of times.  Of course I will in fact do auditions at a dealers or friends to narrow down possible buys (this includes lots of online research for specs, info and pro reviews),  but not the final buying decision until I do the in-home audition!
.

[novisnick]

Mar 12, 2016 23:40:41 GMT -5 @chuckienut said:

Mar 6, 2016 0:37:09 GMT -5 novisnick said:

As suggested by a member here, Im looking at these products, dont get me wrong I do love my Emo gear but im thinking maybe a tube preamp with my vinyl set-up.

Im guessing no 30 day trial? Dont know if ill like the sound, but I do know that if I step in with something cheap, thats what it will sound like.

Like when I purchased my Rega RP 6 with the Exact cartridge, cheaper rige would not have satisfied me.

Do you have experience? What are your thoughts? Should I gamble in hopes that I like it? Is Primaluna a good honest value like I consider Emotiva?

Should I ba asking elsewhere?
I ask here because I trust my friends on this forum, not so much at others.

Thanks all.

My answer is pointed directly at what for me is a 100% requirement (no exceptions) before I purchase any audio/video piece of equipment.  I must audition it in my room/my system and of course have guaranteed right of return if I'm not completely satisfied, no questions asked.  I can't believe how many folks will make a buying decision on how a component sounds in the dealers store or at a friends house.  There are way too many variables here to give me a precise idea how it will sound in my room/system.

So if the dealer will not let me return the item if I'm not satisfied or take a demo unit home for the evening after the store closes to audition or  I can't borrow the same exact model from a friend, then no deal, I will not make the purchase.

This Nut-Policy of mine has saved me a number of times.  Of course I will in fact do auditions at a dealers or friends to narrow down possible buys (this includes lots of online research for specs, info and pro reviews),  but not the final decision until I do the in-home audition!
.

Great nuttin idea!!