cawgijoe
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Post by cawgijoe on Mar 19, 2016 10:17:19 GMT -5
I'm going to have to agree with bmoney here. I would not be into separates if it were not for Emotiva. I would currently have a mid level Denon or Yamaha receiver augmented by a used 3 channel amp for the Thiels. I thank Emotiva for the XPA-5 that I currently have at an amazing price value point. Even if the new Gen 3 is better, which I'm sure it is, It's a shock that it has doubled in price. I don't see the value. Dan did say they are coming out with a less expensive line which is good, but it remains to be seen whether the quality matches that of the Gen1 and Gen2 XPA series. I agree that the price increase is large, but you are omitting a very important point. They are all assembled in house. People love to ask for American made, but do not want to pay the additional cost involved. People requested this and now they have it along with the cost involved with maintaining the required factory and staff. I still view Emotiva as a great value and they compete well with other brands. I do wish they still had the XPR line. I wanted to buy one so badly. Yes, you will have to pay for American labor. I don't have a problem with that, just with double the price. Even at $1,600 for an XPA-5 they still compete, they are just not the super value they were. It's not a quick buying decision for a lot of folks. This is just my opinion. It is what it is. |
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Post by DavidR on Mar 19, 2016 10:31:00 GMT -5
Its just over 60% increase not double. Just sayin'
$999 vs $1599
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Post by monkumonku on Mar 19, 2016 10:47:56 GMT -5
I'mean sorry to speak out of turn, but... I think Big Dan's point is what else is out there that you can buy for $1600 or less for the same wattage. That's not the point I was making (well I could. I could go with all pro amps and have all monoblocks for cheaper than he new gen 3) I was saying it's not a value anymore. The ONLY reason I ever got into separates was because emotiva was affordable! Now it's absurd for the same product. They were leaps and bounds ahead of the competition. Now not so much. For Dan to say "not even close" I don't buy that. There is honestly imho nothing special about emotiva anymore. It was all a super value. Now it's just another amp. Again all my opinion. If he is so sure it's leaps and bounds over th competition. How about HE show me some comparison. Win my money. Cause I don't see where I would ever buy a gen3 amp. But isn't the burden of proof on the accuser?  |
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Post by DavidR on Mar 19, 2016 10:57:54 GMT -5
That's not the point I was making (well I could. I could go with all pro amps and have all monoblocks for cheaper than he new gen 3) I was saying it's not a value anymore. The ONLY reason I ever got into separates was because emotiva was affordable! Now it's absurd for the same product. They were leaps and bounds ahead of the competition. Now not so much. For Dan to say "not even close" I don't buy that. There is honestly imho nothing special about emotiva anymore. It was all a super value. Now it's just another amp. Again all my opinion. If he is so sure it's leaps and bounds over th competition. How about HE show me some comparison. Win my money. Cause I don't see where I would ever buy a gen3 amp. Thing is it is NOT the same product. |
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guitarforlife
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Post by guitarforlife on Mar 19, 2016 11:07:49 GMT -5
For me this is a no brainier. I WILL pay more for ANY product to be made in America Period. When we pay more for a American made product in the long run it helps all of us. I see all the pushing for a $15.00 min wage. Then when someone BRINGS their MAUFATURING BACK to the U.S. all I see is whining over price.
Look you cant have it both ways. I certainly cant speak for Emo.
But I bet they are paying their $15.00 per hour.
Coming from a small business back ground for 3 generations(so I would say it has been a success)It always kills me how when I have to have a price hike some have to complain.
Well would any of you go to work and have your wages CUT ?? I would say NO.
Look you like to make a living, Buy new cars, go on vacation. Well why shouldn't Big Dan and his employees have the same opportunity.
Let alone, lets talk about The cost in facilities, Insurance, Workman's comp, Electricity as well as heat and air conditioning,Property Taxes. You do know Business pay taxes on services others do not.
Now how about the cost of goods, Wages, and the withholding tax. Should I keep going ?
Not to mention look on the internet. Try to find a high wattage good quality made in America power amp.
Heck even old Adcoms sell for 4-5 hundred bucks and they are 25 years old or more. Look on ebay good luck. I'm not saying you will not find something on a fluke on Craig's list or something but that's not the norm
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LCSeminole
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Post by LCSeminole on Mar 19, 2016 13:05:47 GMT -5
Thing is it is NOT the same product. I would agree this is not the same product. The modules are similar in nature to the XPR series amplifiers with an switched mode power supply, that allows up to 7 modules. So on the surface it appears to me that the new XPA gen 3 power amplifiers have taken on more of an XPR spec and has moved past the almost discontinued gen 2 power amplifiers. So in this aspect a substantial improvement. The only unknown(and I'll admit, I'm not familiar with switched mode power supplies) is the new power supply. The gen 3's are quite a bit lighter and easily shipped back to Emotiva for more channels/modules to accommodate those ever changing needs of the home theater enthusiasts. While it is a new power supply, I would bet with a high degree of certainty that Dan and Lonnie have more than done their home work, and I know that Dan wouldn't be producing a power amplifier that doesn't meet his standards. Having said that, if I didn't already have my XPR series amplifiers, I wouldn't be hesitating to try out a new gen 3 amplifier. So, IMO, the bar has definitely moved up for the XPA series, and I'm sure the Emersa and Base X models to come will be filling in the line quite nicely. |
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Post by Gary Cook on Mar 19, 2016 16:45:05 GMT -5
I apologise in advance if this sounds harsh, but for us international buyers there is no good news. Personally I see 3 advantages in the Gen 3, modular, lighter and better sound;
The modular design is quite frankly useless, who in their right mind is going to pay $A500 in freight to have a $US200 board installed?
Airfreight is charged on a combination of dimensions and weight, since the dimensions are the same the weight reduction might just make $A20 to $A50 difference in the freight cost. Which his about 1% of the cost of an XPA-5 Gen 3
Weight wise, I don't have any problem picking up the XPA-1L's or the XPA-100. For sure the XPA-5 is a bit of a lift, but it's in a rack on casters, so ever so easy to move around for changing cables etc.
Better sound is difficult to comment on, haven't heard them, but these days quality Class AB power amplifiers don't have all that different a sound. How does the saying go "you can't hear an inaudible improvement".
Then I see some disadvantages;
If Emotiva won't allow upgrades locally on Gen 3's then I suspect that means no serving locally. Keeping in mind the $A500 freight cost, that also makes warranty next to useless.
Power amplifiers last a long time, decades, they don't really go "out of date" or become "obsolete" overnight like processors for example. A good power amp today will be a good power amp in 10 years, 20 years, 30 years etc. My experience with switching power supplies hasn't been all that great, some have very short lives, die in days/weeks, others have lasted a couple of years. I don't have anything with a switching power supply that has lasted more than 5 years. I have no reason to doubt Dan when he says the Gen 3 power suppliers are built to last, but no amount of bench testing is going to simulate the 20+ years my toroidal/capacitor power supplies last in actual service. My power amplifiers get used every day, up to 15 hours per day quite often, so a proven reliable power supply is must have. I'm not in any way suggesting that it's going to be a problem, but it might be and that's a risk that I currently haven't had to take.
The prices, exchange rate aside as that's beyond Emotiva's control, buying direct the Gen 1 and Gen 2 XPA's used to save us the common 50% to 75% Australian markups in Distributor and Retailer margins. As a result the XPA had a 50% to 60% price advantage over their competition, now it's something like 10% to 15%. So technically the Gen 3 is still at a price advantage but it's now so small that it's easily eroded by a competitor's weekend sale, promotion, bulk buy etc. Particularly relevant since power amplifiers are a long term buying proposition.
Then there was EClub, that additional 10% price advantage for us loyal customers is gone. As is the ability to take advantage of Emotiva promotions, sales etc. None of those have made their way here since the change from Direct selling to retail sales.
Add it up and the Gen 3 XPA-5 is over 3 times the price here of an XPA-5 Gen 1 or 2. I ask myself the question, would I willing to pay 3 times as much for an XPA Gen 3 as I did for a Gen 1 or 2? The law of diminishing returns applies, but seriously Is the sound quality going justify paying 3 times as much? Then there are the other questions, warranty, service, upgrades, freight, switching power supplies etc. Sorry but the answer is no, not a snowball's chance in hell.
Cheers
Gary
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Post by HTfanHungary on Mar 20, 2016 7:45:34 GMT -5
i dont see emotiva being a good value for amps anymore...too bad...they were class leading in that regard hope my Gen2's never die...then I will be forced to go with a new company Well, I hate to burst your bubble, but Emotiva is the price/performance leader. It's not really close. I invite you to compare. Cheers, Big Dan If there is a BaseX line still to come then I would say that keeping the XPA name for the Gen3 seems to be a mistake from a marketing point of view. Most of us perceive Gen3 as a similar product to the previous amp yet it is a different one! I would call this another evolution. What we see is that Emotiva launches a new generation of an amp for at least 60% higher price (for 5 channels). This sounds brutal even in spite of the considerable innovation. Therefore I would name the new model differently, e.g. XPB modular amp or whatever. Otherwise people will keep comparing it to the predecessor (Gen2). And since there are technical elements from the XPR line incorporated into the Gen3 I would position it higher and make a distinction from the former XPA amplifiers (and that would immediately confirm the higher price). So there would be Emersa, BaseX and XP..whatever. After all of that most of the hardcore Emo fans will miss the former XPR models as flagships.... Peace. |
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Post by mgbpuff on Mar 20, 2016 8:12:58 GMT -5
I don't care what they call them, just make them, make them affordable, build them with quality, and get them on the market.
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robcs
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Post by robcs on Mar 20, 2016 19:30:45 GMT -5
I apologise in advance if this sounds harsh, but for us international buyers there is no good news. Personally I see 3 advantages in the Gen 3, modular, lighter and better sound; The modular design is quite frankly useless, who in their right mind is going to pay $A500 in freight to have a $US200 board installed? Airfreight is charged on a combination of dimensions and weight, since the dimensions are the same the weight reduction might just make $A20 to $A50 difference in the freight cost. Which his about 1% of the cost of an XPA-5 Gen 3 Weight wise, I don't have any problem picking up the XPA-1L's or the XPA-100. For sure the XPA-5 is a bit of a lift, but it's in a rack on casters, so ever so easy to move around for changing cables etc. Better sound is difficult to comment on, haven't heard them, but these days quality Class AB power amplifiers don't have all that different a sound. How does the saying go "you can't hear an inaudible improvement". Then I see some disadvantages; If Emotiva won't allow upgrades locally on Gen 3's then I suspect that means no serving locally. Keeping in mind the $A500 freight cost, that also makes warranty next to useless. Power amplifiers last a long time, decades, they don't really go "out of date" or become "obsolete" overnight like processors for example. A good power amp today will be a good power amp in 10 years, 20 years, 30 years etc. My experience with switching power supplies hasn't been all that great, some have very short lives, die in days/weeks, others have lasted a couple of years. I don't have anything with a switching power supply that has lasted more than 5 years. I have no reason to doubt Dan when he says the Gen 3 power suppliers are built to last, but no amount of bench testing is going to simulate the 20+ years my toroidal/capacitor power supplies last in actual service. My power amplifiers get used every day, up to 15 hours per day quite often, so a proven reliable power supply is must have. I'm not in any way suggesting that it's going to be a problem, but it might be and that's a risk that I currently haven't had to take. The prices, exchange rate aside as that's beyond Emotiva's control, buying direct the Gen 1 and Gen 2 XPA's used to save us the common 50% to 75% Australian markups in Distributor and Retailer margins. As a result the XPA had a 50% to 60% price advantage over their competition, now it's something like 10% to 15%. So technically the Gen 3 is still at a price advantage but it's now so small that it's easily eroded by a competitor's weekend sale, promotion, bulk buy etc. Particularly relevant since power amplifiers are a long term buying proposition. Then there was EClub, that additional 10% price advantage for us loyal customers is gone. As is the ability to take advantage of Emotiva promotions, sales etc. None of those have made their way here since the change from Direct selling to retail sales. Add it up and the Gen 3 XPA-5 is over 3 times the price here of an XPA-5 Gen 1 or 2. I ask myself the question, would I willing to pay 3 times as much for an XPA Gen 3 as I did for a Gen 1 or 2? The law of diminishing returns applies, but seriously Is the sound quality going justify paying 3 times as much? Then there are the other questions, warranty, service, upgrades, freight, switching power supplies etc. Sorry but the answer is no, not a snowball's chance in hell. Cheers Gary I'm with you Gazza! I have some great Gen 1 gear that will last for years. Will I be able to notice any difference with the Gen 3 stuff. Unlikely! I have had some gear that has survived for over 40 years !! (My KEF Concerto's). Still Big Dan must address his US market before he concerns himself with us down here in the antipodes. However there must be some way that we can get more competitive pricing and warranty support. Perhaps you and I Garry can set up an Emotiva outpost in Australia to service and support Big Dan's products. We an do the burn-ins in Aus for our region? Kind regards Robo |
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Post by autocrat on Mar 20, 2016 20:27:37 GMT -5
If Emotiva won't allow upgrades locally on Gen 3's then I suspect that means no serving locally. Keeping in mind the $A500 freight cost, that also makes warranty next to useless. Won't they be leaving this to the Australian distributor to sort out? That's my assumption anyway. But, if you're going to import them yourself then the above certainly holds true, but if you buy it locally there will be some sort of warranty involved. Not like they have a choice. I have no clue where they'll do the module addition in Australia, because it wouldn't be that cheap to freight it from Perth to Brisbane and back. If they are planning to ship each unit back to the US to get it done then that's their problem, can't imagine that would be the plan though. It will all depend on the local pricing, I don't know that this is available yet even for the upgrade modules. It probably won't look very inexpensive though, given how much the Gen 2 gear costs in Australia. Seems to me that if you're looking at Gen 2 + 60% (as someone above mentioned) you get some numbers that have you looking at the competition with a more favourable eye. |
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Post by Jim on Mar 21, 2016 9:09:04 GMT -5
Thing is it is NOT the same product. I would agree this is not the same product. The modules are similar in nature to the XPR series amplifiers with an switched mode power supply, that allows up to 7 modules. So on the surface it appears to me that the new XPA gen 3 power amplifiers have taken on more of an XPR spec and has moved past the almost discontinued gen 2 power amplifiers. So in this aspect a substantial improvement. The only unknown(and I'll admit, I'm not familiar with switched mode power supplies) is the new power supply. The gen 3's are quite a bit lighter and easily shipped back to Emotiva for more channels/modules to accommodate those ever changing needs of the home theater enthusiasts. While it is a new power supply, I would bet with a high degree of certainty that Dan and Lonnie have more than done their home work, and I know that Dan wouldn't be producing a power amplifier that doesn't meet his standards. Having said that, if I didn't already have my XPR series amplifiers, I wouldn't be hesitating to try out a new gen 3 amplifier. So, IMO, the bar has definitely moved up for the XPA series, and I'm sure the Emersa and Base X models to come will be filling in the line quite nicely. I suspect that the product landscape will look very different when the other amps are released. I think right now, there is a bit of a panic in what is perceived as "affordable" XPA amps being discontinued and replaced with a much more expensive solution (which IS more expensive AND more robust). Hopefully the new products will be released in quick succession. I trust that Emotiva has done their homework and the new amps will meet/exceed specs and expectations. It's just a waiting game... |
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Lsc
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Post by Lsc on Mar 21, 2016 12:21:14 GMT -5
I know most people don't care about anything except for their bottom line but for years Emotiva has been able to pass the labor savings of manufacturing in China to us. If like me you were able to take advantage of this, it really was a great run. Well that option no longer exists and labor costs have gone up. I think they did a great job of offering a better product knowing they will need to charge more. What it comes down to is that if you can't understand this and decide to shop elsewhere, well good luck. Like with anything there are options. And the past is the past...the reality is that if you need a new amplifier in mid-2016 well you can look at Emotivas offering in mid-2016 or its competitors. Looking at Emotiva's or its competitors offering in 2012 isn't going to help you. It's like me looking at a Rolex Submariner that I passed up in 2002 for $3800 bc I thought it was too expensive. Now they retail for $7500! Even my Omega Seamaster that I ended up getting now retails for $4400 vs $1750. It's a freaking watch..sure the movement might be little better and the bezel is now ceramic etc etc. boo hoo for me! Bottom line, time to move on...no pun intended.  |
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Post by Jim on Mar 21, 2016 14:15:23 GMT -5
I know most people don't care about anything except for their bottom line but for years Emotiva has been able to pass the labor savings of manufacturing in China to us. I imagine that the BOM (bill of materials) for the XPA (Gen 3) is much higher than the older XPA models. I suspect that the cost savings in manufacturing in China isn't actually that great - considering what it must cost to ship thousands of heavy amps. I'm not saying that USA manufacturing (especially building up the facility) isn't expensive, my theory is that it's just a small factor. My understanding is that Chinese manufacturing is not as cheap as it once was. |
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Post by Cogito on Mar 21, 2016 14:56:10 GMT -5
I know most people don't care about anything except for their bottom line but for years Emotiva has been able to pass the labor savings of manufacturing in China to us. I imagine that the BOM (bill of materials) for the XPA (Gen 3) is much higher than the older XPA models. I suspect that the cost savings in manufacturing in China isn't actually that great - considering what it must cost to ship thousands of heavy amps. I'm not saying that USA manufacturing (especially building up the facility) isn't expensive, my theory is that it's just a small factor. My understanding is that Chinese manufacturing is not as cheap as it once was. That is true. China often outsources production to India now! |
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Post by DavidR on Mar 21, 2016 15:14:36 GMT -5
Any good company is always going to continue building and selling new, improved products. A 60% increase is quite a large increase, regardless of the reasons.
I guess all this talk of "how these new amps will sound" negates the argument that all amps sound the same. I guess an amp doesn't just amplify sound, but it also adds it's own signature to the sound... Some would passionately disagree!!! 
Who has made that statement? If that were the case why so many companies building amps? My SA-250 sounds different than my XPA-2 G2. A resistor here, carbon film vs metal film resistor, cut the resistor rating here, add a higher value there and you change the sound not to mention other layout circuitry and component types. If it was meant that an XPA-2 G2 sounds like an XPA-3 G2, XPA-5 G2 and XPA-7 G2, yeah probably and most likely so. Back in the 80's Carver built their 'M' line of amps and voiced each one different. On purpose. Many were voiced to sound like a particular high-end amp. I've owned several models over the years - all sound different and perform different. |
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Post by AudioHTIT on Mar 21, 2016 21:41:06 GMT -5
Yes, you will have to pay for American labor. I don't have a problem with that, just with double the price. Even at $1,600 for an XPA-5 they still compete, they are just not the super value they were. It's not a quick buying decision for a lot of folks. This is just my opinion. It is what it is. I think there are a few issues at work here. Yes, American labor is more expensive, but the days of very cheap Chinese labor has also passed, if the old XPA-5 was still made in China, it would also be more expensive. The new modular amp design has to be more expensive to build – slots, cards, accessibility (you're paying extra for this if you use it or not). The XPA-5 G3 has 250 more total Watts than the G1/G2, you're getting more amp. |
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Post by rbk123 on Mar 21, 2016 21:54:22 GMT -5
Who has made that statement? Many people do. Some here, some on every audio forum. There is data out there that *once level calibrated* modern quality amps cannot be distinguished in blind testing. The big key being the amps are calibrated to the exact decibal level and if not, that volume difference is the source of the sonic differences. Many others are of the belief they are different, but not enormously so. That differences are small and subtle; which if true, rankles them further with such a large Emo price increase for small gain. Still others are of the mindset that there are differences however, sonic improvement per dollar is not linear but logarithmic - once you hit a certain point. Meaning at a sufficient quality level, small gains in audio improvements cost substantially more $. This is where higher end components are no longer a good value, and are about performance leading. Ignoring the snake oil, of course. |
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cawgijoe
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Post by cawgijoe on Mar 21, 2016 21:58:45 GMT -5
Yes, you will have to pay for American labor. I don't have a problem with that, just with double the price. Even at $1,600 for an XPA-5 they still compete, they are just not the super value they were. It's not a quick buying decision for a lot of folks. This is just my opinion. It is what it is. I think there are a few issues at work here. Yes, American labor is more expensive, but the days of very cheap Chinese labor has also passed, if the old XPA-5 was still made in China, it would also be more expensive. The new modular amp design has to be more expensive to build – slots, cards, accessibility (you're paying extra for this if you use it or not). The XPA-5 G3 has 250 more total Watts than the G1/G2, you're getting more amp. Maybe, but the XPA-5 gen 1 I own is plenty of amp for me. |
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