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Post by garbulky on Jun 25, 2016 8:10:16 GMT -5
KeithLI've been critical of the ratings advertised. I just want to say that Emotiva has corrected all of it. I take back everything I said about power ratings. There is nothing wrong with how they do it now. That's great marketing and also integrity in publishing the all channels rating.
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Post by AudioHTIT on Jun 25, 2016 10:49:27 GMT -5
KeithLI've been critical of the ratings advertised. I just want to say that Emotiva has corrected all of it. I take back everything I said about power ratings. There is nothing wrong with how they do it now. That's great marketing and also integrity in publishing the all channels rating. I've been supportive of the two channel rating as many of us use our multi-channel systems for stereo as well. However I agreed with you that the (7 X 110 WPC) rating was misleading for the A-700 – about the only thing you could say was that any two of the seven channels could do 110 WPC. I agree as well that the new specs look the way we've come to expect from Emotiva, truth in advertising! Thanks for pointing that out, I hadn't seen the change. |
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Post by garbulky on Jun 25, 2016 11:12:04 GMT -5
Yeah they added that the higher rating was 2 channels driven. They also mentioned the all channels driven rating and they took off the main gallery power descriptions so there wasn't any confusion between the two.
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Post by leonski on Jun 25, 2016 13:14:57 GMT -5
OK, still, than, How can an AMP be more difficult to build with a single rail PS than a multi-rail PS?
More parts, probably a larger circuit board for either or BOTH the amp and PS. More design time. Might take longer to get it 'right'?
This would be true even IF you could start with the amp portion of an existing product.
Except for the fact that big transformers weigh a LOT (or can) especially for high-powered amps, a conventional linear supply is tough to beat. Sure, you can make a PS lighter and and all that, but a Switcher is more difficult to design.
You'll save lots of SHIPPING $$ in the long run when your amps (again, Especially at higher powers) weigh LESS. The end user will reap Some benefits from a Slightly lower electric bill.
Bolle had said:
More power and/or more efficient... Class H allows for a higher rail voltage when needed (simplified Explanation). An amp as powerful as a XPR for example is more difficult to build with Class AB. Class G and H help here.
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Post by AudioHTIT on Jun 25, 2016 13:19:06 GMT -5
^^^ Maybe that question belongs in the XPA Gen 3 thread since the BasX line uses a tradional linear power supply and Class A/B.
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Post by sycraft on Jun 25, 2016 16:42:33 GMT -5
SMPS can have enough higher efficiency to make a slight difference in your electric bill and your AC bill in summer. However, the CORRECT way to measure amp 'efficiency' is basically from plug to speaker. At 100% output, you MAY pick up 4 or 5 percent of efficiency, but during normal use, probably not that much. I'd be curious as to idle power for the various amps. These amps will probably do better in Europe, where efficiency rules are much stricter than in the US. Making an amp good for all voltages might be easier, too. It is bigger gains than that in efficiency. Switched PSUs are WAY more efficient than linear ones, particularly depending on the design. You can see more than 5% variance between a low end and high end design in SMPSes. Just look at the computer world, the bastion of switched power. In 80 Plus Bronze unit is required to be a minimum of 82% efficient, and 80 Plus Titanium unit is required to be a minimum of 92% efficient at the same power output level. There's more than that though, in that there's another kind of efficiency most people don't know about which is power factor. While the power of a device is specified in watts that isn't how power is delivered, it is delivered in volt-amps. The difference between what a device draws in VA and in watts is the power factor and the extra is off as waste heat. So a 15a line in your house and deliver 15 amps. If you have a device with a crap power factor, say .5, that means that it can pull a maximum of about 900 watts on that line, assuming no voltage sag (probably more like 800 watts in reality). If you have a perfect 1 PF then you could get about twice that. Well, amplifiers with linear supplies don't have great power factors, maybe in the .7-.8 range. However all SPMSes these days are required to have power factor correction built in, giving them a PF in the range of .99. Net effect is they are more efficient in terms of power draw. If a .7 PF linear PSU is trying to draw 500 watts of power from a 120v source, it is going to be pulling like 6 amps. A .99 PF SPMS, more like 4.2 amps. Finally measuring efficiency only at 100% doesn't make sense, because you rarely run you gear at 100%. Measuring at multiple different levels makes sense to get an efficiency curve. For computers they do 20%, 50% and 100% (and also 10% for the highest end stuff). For amps idle, 1 watt, 50% and 100% might make sense. Your amp is going to spend a lot of its time at idle, efficiency there does matter. |
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Post by leonski on Jun 25, 2016 18:03:20 GMT -5
I"m VERY familiar with PF. Try applying your knowledge of PF to SPEAKERS with huge phase angles. And than factor in that some amps are very POOR when working into such phase angles. This is why I've said
more than once that testing amps into a resistor is not very relavent. I'm being nice, here.
I don't know the exact rules, but the EC is getting REAL picky about PS efficiency. And yes, 100% power draw is probably 'best case' with less of a difference as you draw less power. 'D' amps will have 80%+ efficiency at
full power. this drops as power required also drops. This is Plug to Speaker, which IMO, is the only way that makes sense. These amps have built-in onboard SMPS which probably DO have PFC, as mandated by some of the
markets in which the amp will be sold. Don't forget that when there is NO load on such a PS, it may still draw SOME current. This will be at ZERO % Efficiency.
You can STILL draw max power from a line. The question is DELIVERED or UTILIZED power.
Your 500 watt @0.7pf amp is being BILLED for 500 watts by the power company but USING about 714VA. That's why large factories with LOW PF can receive a supplemental bill. Industrial size PFC is a viable alternative. Your example of using a PF of 0.7 is right at 45 degrees between voltage and current peaks. COS45 = 0.707
I may take the time to MEASURE my ampfliers. If I do, I'll send you a PM with my results.
Can we look at the math a different way? I'm not sure if this works, but here goes.
Let's try a slightly different example: I have a '40 watt' fluorescent tube. When warm the PF is about 0.8 and when cold maybe .75 or even less. An irrelevent point, but something I just noticed.
So, by my METER, it is 0.33amp x 118.6vac = 39v a or about 31 watts. Is that correct? The person who told me about this originally spoke about 'real' and 'apparent' power. The real being WATTS and the APPARENT being VA. The important thing is that the COSINE of the PHASE ANGLE between voltage and current, yields what we are agree is PF. Certain other things can happen, a 'negative' PF and even when voltage leads current or when voltage LAGS current.
I came upon this when reading about speakers storing energy and just how BAD a load most are, treating the amp as a power supply and the speaker as a load. My Christmas Wish would be for amp manufacturers and Speaker builders to have a little chat.
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Post by knucklehead on Jun 26, 2016 14:56:36 GMT -5
Has anyone done a comparison between the BASX-500/700 and the UPA-500/700? They look to be very similar in a side by side comparison.
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Post by Gary Cook on Jun 26, 2016 18:24:18 GMT -5
I honestly couldn't give a rats about my HT power usage, it's peanuts when compared to the fridges, air conditioning, washing machine, drier, welder, linisher, pedestal drill, air compressor etc. How it sounds is all that matters.
Cheers
Gary
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Post by leonski on Jun 27, 2016 1:52:19 GMT -5
European rules may drive PS efficiency. When B&O makes a module with included PS, like the ASC stuff the Emotiva is buying, it comes 'free' with such low PF / High Efficiency supplies.
Companies like Pass Labs which sells MOST of its production overseas will conform and everyone will benefit.
I get it, though. Buying a stereo or HT based on PS is nutty. But times ARE changing. Maybe one day I'll own a 'd' amp again.
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Post by kewlmunky on Jun 27, 2016 14:33:17 GMT -5
I was checking out pictures of the BasX A-300 and noticed on both of the back side pictures that the model number says A-250. Was the amp a misprint?
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Post by Hair Nick on Jun 27, 2016 15:02:38 GMT -5
I was checking out pictures of the BasX A-300 and noticed on both of the back side pictures that the model number says A-250. Was the amp a misprint? That has been fixed now. |
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Post by captainvane on Jul 16, 2016 13:22:57 GMT -5
Will you be listing the A-150 soon? Looking for a good amp to drive my PC audio. A-300 is overkill, but I'll get it if the price isn't much higher than the 150.
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Post by pfarinelli on Jul 19, 2016 20:41:36 GMT -5
Obviously Dan can do anything he likes with his company, and his warranties. I just don't understand having different levels of warranty offered for different levels of products. I see that even Bryston offers different warranties so maybe this is becoming the norm. I was impressed with the five year warranty and just as impressed with the three years....just to a lesser extent....hahaha Back in the day 80's. Sony had their regular line product and the ES line. Part of the step up was ES shipped with a 3 year warranty. It adds value to the step up piece. |
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Post by leonski on Jul 19, 2016 21:48:48 GMT -5
You basically PRE PAY for any warranty work AT THE TIME OF PURCHASE.
A 10 year warranty could be offered at a price NOBODY would pay.
Parts must be stocked for the duration of such warranty's, unless you have some kind of 'replace with new' provision.
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Post by garbulky on Jul 19, 2016 23:54:51 GMT -5
You basically PRE PAY for any warranty work AT THE TIME OF PURCHASE. A 10 year warranty could be offered at a price NOBODY would pay. Parts must be stocked for the duration of such warranty's, unless you have some kind of 'replace with new' provision. True 10 year warranty's come with a price. However Audio Gd's warranty is 10 years and their prices are very reasonable - even if they had a three year warranty. |
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Post by leonski on Jul 20, 2016 0:09:13 GMT -5
Bryston a 'premium priced' amp is 20 years, to the original owner, I think. Not certain if the warranty is transferrable. For OTHER stuff in the Bryston line, the warranty is shorter.
Over the years I've seen a LOT of car company manipulations with Warranty Duration. Longer usually meant Mo/Betta but sometimes was just used as a tool to build market share.
My personal philosophy has always been 'infant mortality' whereby if something is GOING to break, it's gonna do so sooner than later. 2 or 3 years is PLENTY to find out if you've got a 'lemon'.
California even has 'Lemon Laws' where if a car needs the same fix 3x or more, the dealer BUYS it. Maybe that should be expanded to cover OTHER consumer stuff?
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Post by deltadube on Jul 20, 2016 0:18:55 GMT -5
Bryston a 'premium priced' amp is 20 years, to the original owner, I think. Not certain if the warranty is transferrable. For OTHER stuff in the Bryston line, the warranty is shorter. Over the years I've seen a LOT of car company manipulations with Warranty Duration. Longer usually meant Mo/Betta but sometimes was just used as a tool to build market share. My personal philosophy has always been 'infant mortality' whereby if something is GOING to break, it's gonna do so sooner than later. 2 or 3 years is PLENTY to find out if you've got a 'lemon'. California even has 'Lemon Laws' where if a car needs the same fix 3x or more, the dealer BUYS it. Maybe that should be expanded to cover OTHER consumer stuff? if you buy extended warranty up here in Ontario on certain things eg computer and it need fixing the 4th time not the 3rd u get a new one of equal or better value.. check that 3x bets its the 4th.. cheers.. |
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Post by leonski on Jul 20, 2016 0:58:30 GMT -5
oag.ca.gov/consumers/general/carsLink to California Lemon Law (automotive). It's a lot more complicated than I was led to believe after listening to the talking heads on TV or Radio. But, bottom line, put on your LAWYER HAT to read the link.
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KeithL
Administrator 
Posts: 10,261
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Post by KeithL on Jul 20, 2016 8:46:14 GMT -5
The law is virtually always complex and somewhat impenetrable. Note that the link is specifically for the California law for Cars.... I'm also guessing that it covers dealers, but not individual sellers. There are also general laws that govern all products.... And there are Federal laws that sometimes overlap with State and local laws. And even some cities have their own laws. And then there's Civil Law.... which is quite different. You can basically sue someone for anything... even if it doesn't make sense. Of course, if it doesn't make sense, then you won't win. (And they can sue you for harassing them.) The best way to look at it is that, if you're quite certain you were cheated by someone, then you should ask an actual lawyer. (Preferably one who has experience with the type of case you think you have - and in your state or city.) oag.ca.gov/consumers/general/carsLink to California Lemon Law (automotive). It's a lot more complicated than I was led to believe after listening to the talking heads on TV or Radio. But, bottom line, put on your LAWYER HAT to read the link. |
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