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Post by bluemeanies on Jun 29, 2016 8:18:22 GMT -5
An interesting read especially for people here if they are in the market for new speakers. I never visualized the complete process of what the importance of the speaker design as a whole consist of for the final package.
From the desk of PS Audio
Every product is the culmination of many things: design, concept, engineering, aesthetics, committees, regulatory requirements, and not to forget, budget constraints.
Indeed, while we may not want to think that every product, from the over-the-top piece to the bottom-of-the-barrel product had a budget, in the end, a finite amount of money was apportioned. That’s building within financial constraints (i.e. a budget).
And where designers place their dollars has a lot to do with both the philosophical views of the company as well as performance. Take, for example, a loudspeaker. On one end of the spectrum really expensive loudspeakers typically put more money into the cabinet than the drivers and crossover, and the opposite is true on the other end (ignoring the really inexpensive).
Think of the most expensive loudspeaker you can and envision what it must cost to craft a massive and heavy aluminum sculpture, or an exotic multi-layer laminate, or cast concrete. Even the most expensive drivers and crossovers rarely approach that of these monolith boxes that grace our living rooms.
And, to be clear, I am not being critical—not in the least. Design philosophies are as varied as the imagination that crafts them—so to are the results.
I have had many a spirited conversation with loudspeaker designers who place the greatest importance on the rigidity and deadness of the cabinet first, driver and crossover performance second. And they may not be wrong.
What’s truly inspiring about our craft is the very word I use to describe it.
Craft.
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Post by Boomzilla on Jun 29, 2016 9:13:20 GMT -5
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Post by Deleted on Jul 12, 2016 16:09:25 GMT -5
Nice post,I was just reading up on what is considered high-end audio, it can be very subjective indeed..."1000 dollar pair of speakers doesn't necessarily mean they will sound better than a $100 pair of speakers. Can they? sure they can all depends, source and equipment used on them. As most audio enthusiast know spending tons of bucks to achieve audio Bliss can be never-ending with minimal return on the top end. But than again what sounds good one may not necessarily sound as good to another.
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Post by bluemeanies on Jul 13, 2016 5:54:31 GMT -5
Nice post,I was just reading up on what is considered high-end audio, it can be very subjective indeed..."1000 dollar pair of speakers doesn't necessarily mean they will sound better than a $100 pair of speakers. Can they? sure they can all depends, source and equipment used on them. As most audio enthusiast know spending tons of bucks to achieve audio Bliss can be never-ending with minimal return on the top end. But than again what sounds good one may not necessarily sound as good to another. Agree with your thoughts on the difference people have when listening to music as well as comparing speakers and equipment as a whole. My friend was in the market for new speakers last year and purchased a pair of Wharfedale Jade3's. To me there was little on the low end while the highs and mid did sound clear and accurate. He loved these speakers as well as another buddy of ours who claimed he did not like a lot of low end if any in his listening. To me the Jade3's were void of low end and music sounded hollow. I could not imagine how dull music would sound without any bass. Everyone hears differently, everyone likes differently. I respectively will make a comment that may bend the ears of a few on this forum. Spending thousands does not mean you are getting the best nor does it mean the purchase is a good value. That said IMO I do not see where the quality comes in on a $350.00 speaker. It costs money to develop, research, manufacture and market. Whatever is left goes into the quality part of the equation. Good to better crossovers IMO are the most important ingredient in the crafting of a good well rounded speakers. What quality crossover goes into a $350.00 speaker? You decide. |
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Post by simpleman68 on Jul 13, 2016 7:47:01 GMT -5
Interesting read.  The other piece of the puzzle for me is combination of gear. When doing comparo tests I've heard substantially different sound attributes just by changing an amp or pre-amp. Talk about a way to drain your wallet in a hurry... Very difficult to find a combo that makes your ears happy without some playing around; oft times that gets costly. Scott |
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guitarforlife
Sensei
Just another busy day in Northern Wisconsin.
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Post by guitarforlife on Jul 13, 2016 8:26:46 GMT -5
Nice post,I was just reading up on what is considered high-end audio, it can be very subjective indeed..."1000 dollar pair of speakers doesn't necessarily mean they will sound better than a $100 pair of speakers. Can they? sure they can all depends, source and equipment used on them. As most audio enthusiast know spending tons of bucks to achieve audio Bliss can be never-ending with minimal return on the top end. But than again what sounds good one may not necessarily sound as good to another. Agree with your thoughts on the difference people have when listening to music as well as comparing speakers and equipment as a whole. My friend was in the market for new speakers last year and purchased a pair of Wharfedale Jade3's. To me there was little on the low end while the highs and mid did sound clear and accurate. He loved these speakers as well as another buddy of ours who claimed he did not like a lot of low end if any in his listening. To me the Jade3's were void of low end and music sounded hollow. I could not imagine how dull music would sound without any bass. Everyone hears differently, everyone likes differently. I respectively will make a comment that may bend the ears of a few on this forum. Spending thousands does not mean you are getting the best nor does it mean the purchase is a good value. That said IMO I do not see where the quality comes in on a $350.00 speaker. It costs money to develop, research, manufacture and market. Whatever is left goes into the quality part of the equation. Good to better crossovers IMO are the most important ingredient in the crafting of a good well rounded speakers. What quality crossover goes into a $350.00 speaker? You decide. blue, that is because you have never hear the Maggie MMG's. $300.00 ea sold in a pair for $599.00. Maybe not for every one but for me panels are the only way to go. There is simply nothing better at their price point. |
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Post by Cogito on Jul 13, 2016 9:35:18 GMT -5
Nice post,I was just reading up on what is considered high-end audio, it can be very subjective indeed..."1000 dollar pair of speakers doesn't necessarily mean they will sound better than a $100 pair of speakers. Can they? sure they can all depends, source and equipment used on them. As most audio enthusiast know spending tons of bucks to achieve audio Bliss can be never-ending with minimal return on the top end. But than again what sounds good one may not necessarily sound as good to another. Agree with your thoughts on the difference people have when listening to music as well as comparing speakers and equipment as a whole. My friend was in the market for new speakers last year and purchased a pair of Wharfedale Jade3's. To me there was little on the low end while the highs and mid did sound clear and accurate. He loved these speakers as well as another buddy of ours who claimed he did not like a lot of low end if any in his listening. To me the Jade3's were void of low end and music sounded hollow. I could not imagine how dull music would sound without any bass. Everyone hears differently, everyone likes differently. I'm currently using a pair of Jade 3's in my main system and in my experience, the bass has useful output into the mid 30's (Not bad for a 6" driver in a bookshelf enclosure). No, they are not going to shake the pictures off the walls, but what is there, is extremely articulate with a very "UNboxey" sound. Vocals are where these speakers really excel at. SUPER natural and uncolored. Norah Jones and Lou Rawls never sounded better! Filling out the bottom end with a quality sub is certainly easier than dealing with flaws in the mid and upper registers. |
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Post by bluemeanies on Jul 13, 2016 10:07:56 GMT -5
Agree with your thoughts on the difference people have when listening to music as well as comparing speakers and equipment as a whole. My friend was in the market for new speakers last year and purchased a pair of Wharfedale Jade3's. To me there was little on the low end while the highs and mid did sound clear and accurate. He loved these speakers as well as another buddy of ours who claimed he did not like a lot of low end if any in his listening. To me the Jade3's were void of low end and music sounded hollow. I could not imagine how dull music would sound without any bass. Everyone hears differently, everyone likes differently. I respectively will make a comment that may bend the ears of a few on this forum. Spending thousands does not mean you are getting the best nor does it mean the purchase is a good value. That said IMO I do not see where the quality comes in on a $350.00 speaker. It costs money to develop, research, manufacture and market. Whatever is left goes into the quality part of the equation. Good to better crossovers IMO are the most important ingredient in the crafting of a good well rounded speakers. What quality crossover goes into a $350.00 speaker? You decide. blue, that is because you have never hear the Maggie MMG's. $300.00 ea sold in a pair for $599.00. Maybe not for every one but for me panels are the only way to go. There is simply nothing better at their price point. guitar...you are correct about the Maggies. That's a speaker I would consider given room allowance. I have heard so many positive qualities about this speaker. Thanks for jogging my bad memory. |
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Post by bluemeanies on Jul 13, 2016 10:26:18 GMT -5
Agree with your thoughts on the difference people have when listening to music as well as comparing speakers and equipment as a whole. My friend was in the market for new speakers last year and purchased a pair of Wharfedale Jade3's. To me there was little on the low end while the highs and mid did sound clear and accurate. He loved these speakers as well as another buddy of ours who claimed he did not like a lot of low end if any in his listening. To me the Jade3's were void of low end and music sounded hollow. I could not imagine how dull music would sound without any bass. Everyone hears differently, everyone likes differently. I'm currently using a pair of Jade 3's in my main system and in my experience, the bass has useful output into the mid 30's (Not bad for a 6" driver in a bookshelf enclosure). No, they are not going to shake the pictures off the walls, but what is there, is extremely articulate with a very "UNboxey" sound. Vocals are where these speakers really excel at. SUPER natural and uncolored. Norah Jones and Lou Rawls never sounded better! Filling out the bottom end with a quality sub is certainly easier than dealing with flaws in the mid and upper registers. cogito For my friends taste it's an ideal speaker. When demoing the Jade3's both of my friends thought there was enough bass/low end. Now after owning the Jade 3's he intends to add a sub. I do not think that auditioning speakers in a store atmosphere is the best thing...however in my area there's not one dealer who will let you audition at home before you buy. As I mentioned the Jades were clear and accurate I meant no offense. As far as pictures shaking on the wall...I don't want that either when I listen to my two channel. My B&W's are heavier on the low end than the Jades but far from annoying. Actually they are perfect. HT is of course is a different color. My 2channel is powered by the Bob Latino tube amplifier in triode mode delivering 65watts per channel. I point that out referring to the bass output not being overbearing. |
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Post by Cogito on Jul 13, 2016 11:41:01 GMT -5
I'm currently using a pair of Jade 3's in my main system and in my experience, the bass has useful output into the mid 30's (Not bad for a 6" driver in a bookshelf enclosure). No, they are not going to shake the pictures off the walls, but what is there, is extremely articulate with a very "UNboxey" sound. Vocals are where these speakers really excel at. SUPER natural and uncolored. Norah Jones and Lou Rawls never sounded better! Filling out the bottom end with a quality sub is certainly easier than dealing with flaws in the mid and upper registers. cogito For my friends taste it's an ideal speaker. When demoing the Jade3's both of my friends thought there was enough bass/low end. Now after owning the Jade 3's he intends to add a sub. I do not think that auditioning speakers in a store atmosphere is the best thing...however in my area there's not one dealer who will let you audition at home before you buy. As I mentioned the Jades were clear and accurate I meant no offense. As far as pictures shaking on the wall...I don't want that either when I listen to my two channel. My B&W's are heavier on the low end than the Jades but far from annoying. Actually they are perfect. HT is of course is a different color. My 2channel is powered by the Bob Latino tube amplifier in triode mode delivering 65watts per channel. I point that out referring to the bass output not being overbearing. Absolutely no offense taken. Just sharing my experience with them. For what they are, they really are a gem. |
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Post by gzubeck on Jul 14, 2016 3:33:56 GMT -5
Nice post,I was just reading up on what is considered high-end audio, it can be very subjective indeed..."1000 dollar pair of speakers doesn't necessarily mean they will sound better than a $100 pair of speakers. Can they? sure they can all depends, source and equipment used on them. As most audio enthusiast know spending tons of bucks to achieve audio Bliss can be never-ending with minimal return on the top end. But than again what sounds good one may not necessarily sound as good to another. A $1000 dollar speaker should sound alot better than a $100 speaker or the manufacturer is a fraud. If the signal is a high quality one and the amp is quality then the $1000 speaker should blow the toy speaker out of the water. |
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Post by gzubeck on Jul 14, 2016 3:38:44 GMT -5
Agree with your thoughts on the difference people have when listening to music as well as comparing speakers and equipment as a whole. My friend was in the market for new speakers last year and purchased a pair of Wharfedale Jade3's. To me there was little on the low end while the highs and mid did sound clear and accurate. He loved these speakers as well as another buddy of ours who claimed he did not like a lot of low end if any in his listening. To me the Jade3's were void of low end and music sounded hollow. I could not imagine how dull music would sound without any bass. Everyone hears differently, everyone likes differently. I'm currently using a pair of Jade 3's in my main system and in my experience, the bass has useful output into the mid 30's (Not bad for a 6" driver in a bookshelf enclosure). No, they are not going to shake the pictures off the walls, but what is there, is extremely articulate with a very "UNboxey" sound. Vocals are where these speakers really excel at. SUPER natural and uncolored. Norah Jones and Lou Rawls never sounded better! Filling out the bottom end with a quality sub is certainly easier than dealing with flaws in the mid and upper registers. Useful output into the mid 30s...what does this mean? You cannot audibly hear below 40 herz as it becomes vibration only. You would feel the vibrational pulse only. I had an audio salesman show this to me with a 40hz test tone twenty years ago. It was eye opening to say the least. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 14, 2016 3:52:38 GMT -5
Some here forget we are at a forum of a factory direct online seller (at least for speakers I believe, that might be changing for Emo electronics). That $1000 speaker we refer to might sell for $1000 retail at a local high end dealer but a speaker of the same quality build and sound might sell for $300-$400 factory direct. We are talking about factory/wholesale/retail pricing. I'm not talking about online discount dealers but online dealers who actually design and build their own speakers and sell direct to the end user with no wholesalers or retail dealers in between.
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Post by gzubeck on Jul 14, 2016 3:52:54 GMT -5
Nice post,I was just reading up on what is considered high-end audio, it can be very subjective indeed..."1000 dollar pair of speakers doesn't necessarily mean they will sound better than a $100 pair of speakers. Can they? sure they can all depends, source and equipment used on them. As most audio enthusiast know spending tons of bucks to achieve audio Bliss can be never-ending with minimal return on the top end. But than again what sounds good one may not necessarily sound as good to another. Agree with your thoughts on the difference people have when listening to music as well as comparing speakers and equipment as a whole. My friend was in the market for new speakers last year and purchased a pair of Wharfedale Jade3's. To me there was little on the low end while the highs and mid did sound clear and accurate. He loved these speakers as well as another buddy of ours who claimed he did not like a lot of low end if any in his listening. To me the Jade3's were void of low end and music sounded hollow. I could not imagine how dull music would sound without any bass. Everyone hears differently, everyone likes differently. I respectively will make a comment that may bend the ears of a few on this forum. Spending thousands does not mean you are getting the best nor does it mean the purchase is a good value. That said IMO I do not see where the quality comes in on a $350.00 speaker. It costs money to develop, research, manufacture and market. Whatever is left goes into the quality part of the equation. Good to better crossovers IMO are the most important ingredient in the crafting of a good well rounded speakers. What quality crossover goes into a $350.00 speaker? You decide. Ive owned b&ws speakers including the cdm with the high end mid range driver. After i started building my own speakers im not so impressed with the brittish sound anymore. Im much more impressed with seas, scanspeak, and sb acoustics etc. Than buying premade expensive speakers. For one the lowish sensitivity in their designs require very powerful amps. My sb acoustics midwoofer with a seas tweater simply embarrases the b&w speakers. Things im looking for are 3d imaging and very natural sounding speakers that absolutely disappear with a high quality source signal. Acually streaming netflix audio provides very good test examples for me even better than bluray discs for movies. Lol! |
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Post by gzubeck on Jul 14, 2016 4:00:13 GMT -5
Some here forget we are at a forum of a factory direct online seller (at least for speakers I believe, that might be changing for Emo electronics). That $1000 speaker we refer to might sell for $1000 retail at a local high end dealer but a speaker of the same quality build and sound might sell for $300-$400 factory direct. We are talking about factory/wholesale/retail pricing. I'm not talking about online discount dealers but online dealers who actually design and build their own speakers and sell direct to the end user with no wholesalers or retail dealers in between. Markup is not that high on retail speakers. An oem direct might be able to shave off 25-35% but no more if were comparing apples to apples...there are shippings costs and returns etc. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 14, 2016 4:16:03 GMT -5
Markup is not that high on retail speakers. An oem direct might be able to shave off 25-35% but no more if were comparing apples to apples...there are shippings costs and returns etc. Baloney! Not even close! |
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Post by gzubeck on Jul 14, 2016 4:43:30 GMT -5
Markup is not that high on retail speakers. An oem direct might be able to shave off 25-35% but no more if were comparing apples to apples...there are shippings costs and returns etc. Baloney! Not even close! What speaker manufacturers are we talking about? Markup is not 150% on b&w speakers...or any high quality speaker manufacturer. The cheaper ones yes.... |
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Post by bluemeanies on Jul 14, 2016 5:56:28 GMT -5
Agree with your thoughts on the difference people have when listening to music as well as comparing speakers and equipment as a whole. My friend was in the market for new speakers last year and purchased a pair of Wharfedale Jade3's. To me there was little on the low end while the highs and mid did sound clear and accurate. He loved these speakers as well as another buddy of ours who claimed he did not like a lot of low end if any in his listening. To me the Jade3's were void of low end and music sounded hollow. I could not imagine how dull music would sound without any bass. Everyone hears differently, everyone likes differently. I respectively will make a comment that may bend the ears of a few on this forum. Spending thousands does not mean you are getting the best nor does it mean the purchase is a good value. That said IMO I do not see where the quality comes in on a $350.00 speaker. It costs money to develop, research, manufacture and market. Whatever is left goes into the quality part of the equation. Good to better crossovers IMO are the most important ingredient in the crafting of a good well rounded speakers. What quality crossover goes into a $350.00 speaker? You decide. Ive owned b&ws speakers including the cdm with the high end mid range driver. After i started building my own speakers im not so impressed with the brittish sound anymore. Im much more impressed with seas, scanspeak, and sb acoustics etc. Than buying premade expensive speakers. For one the lowish sensitivity in their designs require very powerful amps. My sb acoustics midwoofer with a seas tweater simply embarrases the b&w speakers. Things im looking for are 3d imaging and very natural sounding speakers that absolutely disappear with a high quality source signal. Acually streaming netflix audio provides very good test examples for me even better than bluray discs for movies. Lol! Speakers are subjective IMO. Glad you are happy with your home grown. You were not specific about what B&W's you have had. The 800 series are sublime in all categories. They keep on getting better. I believe below the 800 series the sound changes dramatically, except I will say, in B&W's vintage speakers. IMO the diamond series ALL sound life like and the 3dimensional sound is right there. BTW that 3dimensional sound you mentioned can be acquired with just about any speaker that is toed in properly. Toe in, speaker placement is imperative! Yes, a quality speaker is important but in your post you failed to mention the crossover which is the heart of a speaker design. It makes or breaks what you are listening too. As far as power...you are mistaken that you need mega watts to drive B&W's. In my HT I am using the Outlaw 7700 200watts per channel amplifier in a 25'by 11' room wth 6.5-7' ceilings...it sounds awesome. My 2channel may surprise you. The B&W803 diamonds are being fuel with Bob Latino's tube mono-blocks in triode mode @65watts per channel. I have also driven the diamonds with the same amplifiers with just 2output tubes in triode @35watts per channel. At this writing I am using 4output tubes compared to 2output tubes but I am considering which configuration to use further down the road. Comparing 65watts to 35watts is a challenge but it is also fun to critique your own system...lol |
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Post by Cogito on Jul 14, 2016 7:14:17 GMT -5
I'm currently using a pair of Jade 3's in my main system and in my experience, the bass has useful output into the mid 30's (Not bad for a 6" driver in a bookshelf enclosure). No, they are not going to shake the pictures off the walls, but what is there, is extremely articulate with a very "UNboxey" sound. Vocals are where these speakers really excel at. SUPER natural and uncolored. Norah Jones and Lou Rawls never sounded better! Filling out the bottom end with a quality sub is certainly easier than dealing with flaws in the mid and upper registers. Useful output into the mid 30s...what does this mean? You cannot audibly hear below 40 herz as it becomes vibration only. You would feel the vibrational pulse only. I had an audio salesman show this to me with a 40hz test tone twenty years ago. It was eye opening to say the least. What it means is that those frequencies are audible and add to the bass experience and yes, there's a tactile component to it. This of course, was easily confirmed with test tones. On my SYSTEM (with my sub), I can EASILY hear tones down to 30Hz, but below that, it's certainly more of a tactile experience rather than an audible experience. Here's Stereophiles frequency response graph for the Jade 3's. I think it supports my experience. The speaker designer, Peter Comeau, claims useful response "down to around 30Hz" with room gain. Personally, I think that's a bit optimistic.  |
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Post by garbulky on Jul 14, 2016 7:32:39 GMT -5
I'm currently using a pair of Jade 3's in my main system and in my experience, the bass has useful output into the mid 30's (Not bad for a 6" driver in a bookshelf enclosure). No, they are not going to shake the pictures off the walls, but what is there, is extremely articulate with a very "UNboxey" sound. Vocals are where these speakers really excel at. SUPER natural and uncolored. Norah Jones and Lou Rawls never sounded better! Filling out the bottom end with a quality sub is certainly easier than dealing with flaws in the mid and upper registers. Useful output into the mid 30s...what does this mean? You cannot audibly hear below 40 herz as it becomes vibration only. You would feel the vibrational pulse only. I had an audio salesman show this to me with a 40hz test tone twenty years ago. It was eye opening to say the least. Are you sure it becomes a vibration only? Have you tried it with a different sub? |
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