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Post by Cogito on Jul 15, 2016 14:51:22 GMT -5
To some people a nickel is meaningful, to others a five dollar bill, and even more $500 dollars...this whole debate started with the statement meaniful output at 30 hz...i look at it and think its a nickle statement...to others it might be a five dollar bill...to the original poster he gets his $500 worth of meaniful vibrations...to others we get quality brown jokes.... If you were referring to MY statement, it reads as " useful output into the mid 30's". This sir, is a direct observation. While not purely scientific, it is exceptionally easy to confirm with simple test tones. Yet you assert that's not possible because you claim I can't hear anything below 40Hz, and that I can only "feel" it as vibrations. This goes against all common sense and common knowledge. Did you try using headphones to do a tone test yet? Maybe you'll be enlightened... BTW The brown tone joke was funny as $hit. |
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Post by gzubeck on Jul 15, 2016 15:02:01 GMT -5
To some people a nickel is meaningful, to others a five dollar bill, and even more $500 dollars...this whole debate started with the statement meaniful output at 30 hz...i look at it and think its a nickle statement...to others it might be a five dollar bill...to the original poster he gets his $500 worth of meaniful vibrations...to others we get quality brown jokes.... If you were referring to MY statement, it reads as " useful output into the mid 30's". This sir, is a direct observation. While not purely scientific, it is exceptionally easy to confirm with simple test tones. Yet you assert that's not possible because you claim I can't hear anything below 40Hz, and that I can only "feel" it as vibrations. This goes against all common sense and common knowledge. Did you try using headphones to do a tone test yet? Maybe you'll be enlightened... BTW The brown tone joke was funny as $hit. The only thing meaningful about playing down to 30hz for a speaker means that the drivers are well engineered and that they can cleanly play base all the way through the audible range. Yes you will will have a combination of audio and vibrational pulses between 30-40 hz and to some people this might be meaningful in certain circumstances. The question for me is that for day to day listening worrying about 30 hz is not meaningful for most of my program material that i listen to. Worrying about 30hz to me is like worrying about making an extra point in a football game when your team is leading by 6 touchdowns and three minutes left on the clock. |
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Post by geebo on Jul 15, 2016 15:53:05 GMT -5
If you were referring to MY statement, it reads as " useful output into the mid 30's". This sir, is a direct observation. While not purely scientific, it is exceptionally easy to confirm with simple test tones. Yet you assert that's not possible because you claim I can't hear anything below 40Hz, and that I can only "feel" it as vibrations. This goes against all common sense and common knowledge. Did you try using headphones to do a tone test yet? Maybe you'll be enlightened... BTW The brown tone joke was funny as $hit. The only thing meaningful about playing down to 30hz for a speaker means that the drivers are well engineered and that they can cleanly play base all the way through the audible range. Yes you will will have a combination of audio and vibrational pulses between 30-40 hz and to some people this might be meaningful in certain circumstances. The question for me is that for day to day listening worrying about 30 hz is not meaningful for most of my program material that i listen to. Worrying about 30hz to me is like worrying about making an extra point in a football game when your team is leading by 6 touchdowns and three minutes left on the clock. But you did say this: " All you have to do is take a test tone at 35 hz only and play it through your speakers. It will blow your mind away as you watch the cone move with no sound coming out. You will see the cone move and feel the vibrations emanating forth but you will hear nothing other than what cone makes by moving in and out." Is that still your contention? |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 15, 2016 17:27:30 GMT -5
For gzubeck, Please read over this below 100 10 times. Then come back and there will be a test.
.......... A little online research will quickly confirm what is known by all sound experts and most experienced audio enthusiasts.
.......... The average person with normal hearing can hear (yes you can feel them too) low bass notes down to about 20Hz (this is considered as standard knowledge).
.......... Above 80Hz a person can identify the location that the bass is coming from.
.......... Below 80Hz a person cannot locate the source of the bass and the low bass seems to be omni-directional. This is why many experts recommend crossing over a single sub at 80Hz and below and one will usually have multiple choices for the sub's placement.
.......... At or below about 20Hz the average person can no longer hear this very low bass and can only feel it.
.......... Note, these are the fundamental tones. Tones also have overtones/harmonics that will also reproduce a tone at a higher frequency. Thus if you have a bass tone of 60Hz you would clearly hear it but not be able to tell that the 60Hz tone was recorded to the right. However, the overtone at 120Hz and usually played thru the right speaker/track would allow you to know that the bass instrument or source came from the right side during the recording.
The above is considered standard entry level knowledge in this hobby.
This is not just my opinion but fact! It is sad that you keep posting this nonsense above. Unfortunately there are some newbies here that might believe your misstatements.
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Post by novisnick on Jul 15, 2016 17:37:21 GMT -5
Is this too strong? 
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Post by Deleted on Jul 16, 2016 2:48:11 GMT -5
Nope ..... Just right.   |
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Post by gzubeck on Jul 16, 2016 3:27:46 GMT -5
Chuckienut...your right....humans can hear down to 20hz and if you put them in an anechoic chamber the very best can hear down to 12hz. The problem is that with normal speakers the drop off in audio given a normal db level of listening that it becomes increasingly meaningless as you move down the frequency curve. Arguing over whether or not somone can hear anything at at all is meaningless unless you continuosly increase the db at lower frequencies. When somebody says meaningful maybe if they have a large woofer or subwoofer hooked up to get that extra 2% of audio bliss they desire. For me ill enjoy the clean bass my sb acoustics give me with a nice rolloff down to that 20hz human threshold. If the dbs are down substantially then it becomes increasingly meaningless but i will still enjoy whatever is leftover in that sub 40hz area that my speakers can give. Just try and answer my posts without regurgitating your 20hz to 20 khz human hearing argument.
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Post by gzubeck on Jul 16, 2016 3:49:48 GMT -5
The only thing meaningful about playing down to 30hz for a speaker means that the drivers are well engineered and that they can cleanly play base all the way through the audible range. Yes you will will have a combination of audio and vibrational pulses between 30-40 hz and to some people this might be meaningful in certain circumstances. The question for me is that for day to day listening worrying about 30 hz is not meaningful for most of my program material that i listen to. Worrying about 30hz to me is like worrying about making an extra point in a football game when your team is leading by 6 touchdowns and three minutes left on the clock. But you did say this: " All you have to do is take a test tone at 35 hz only and play it through your speakers. It will blow your mind away as you watch the cone move with no sound coming out. You will see the cone move and feel the vibrations emanating forth but you will hear nothing other than what cone makes by moving in and out." Is that still your contention? Maybe you can hear things but you are going to have to continuosly increase dbs as you move through the 40hz -30 hz spectrum. It becomes increasingly meaningless. Maybe the drivers i was listening to couldnt reproduce those tones in order for me to hear it at all. No matter what your going to hear less and less as you move down the frequency curve given a fixed db output lvl until it becomes meaningless for audio and becomes a tactile sense. The tactile sense is not meaningless because its a component of the entire user experience that adds realism to the overall human sense experience. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 16, 2016 4:36:38 GMT -5
gzubeck, Sorry, but you posted: You cannot audibly hear below 40 herz as it becomes vibration only.
That is not even close to fact for those with normal hearing. Yes, many years ago most very good and large speakers would only reach about 40-45Hz or so at -3dB's. Plus in those days there were few music sources that were flat down to or below that range. In the more modern days of digital sources in both music and movies, high quality/flat/low distortion playback down even below 20Hz is possible. Most folks serious into music and especially movies now have high quality subs that easily go down to the 25-15Hz range at -3dB's with low distortion. Many towers in reasonable (low to medium) price ranges are still limited to the 35-40Hz range or slightly above. Although some expensive high end towers (w/o built in subs) can reach below 30Hz.
Maybe your speakers or your hearing are no good below 40Hz but that is way off the charts for normal hearing. You don't list your speakers or even if you have a sub An audio test CD with test frequencies from 10Hz-300Hz (in 1Hz increments) will do wonders for your ability to feel the low range (20Hz and below) and hear/feel the low range from 20Hz and up. You must have high quality subs for the lowest tones to be audible. You will quickly learn that tones below 40Hz are very audible. If you don't have a sub, buying a quality sub(s) will do wonders for the clean low bass tones you are obviously now missing.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 16, 2016 5:31:40 GMT -5
Maybe you can hear things but you are going to have to continuosly increase dbs as you move through the 40hz -30 hz spectrum. It becomes increasingly meaningless. Maybe the drivers i was listening to couldnt reproduce those tones in order for me to hear it at all. No matter what your going to hear less and less as you move down the frequency curve given a fixed db output lvl until it becomes meaningless for audio and becomes a tactile sense. The tactile sense is not meaningless because its a component of the entire user experience that adds realism to the overall human sense experience. gzubeck still makes no mention of the speakers he has been listening to? If he is talking about B&W they are fine for the UK listening habits but they traditionally lack the lower bass performance. High quality speakers matched with a high quality sub do not fall off a cliff below 40Hz as he implies. A typical quality performance sub such as the SVS PB13-Ultra in the 20Hz selection mode at 20Hz is down only 3.5dB's from its output at 125Hz! The distortion at 20Hz is an incredibly low 5.08%. That is simply amazingly flat performance down to 20Hz! This sub properly matched with a flat response/high quality tower or medium to large high quality bookshelf speaker will likely be able to actually meet the much sought after 20Hz-15,000Hz, +/- 3dB frequency response specification. There a number of similar high performance subs from online direct sub manufacturers such as Rythmik, HSU, Power Sound Audio and others that would also be impressively flat down to the 20Hz range. Remember that subs are required to reproduce 10dB's louder special effects from the LFE channel! Many of these subs can reproduce above 115dB's output! gzubeck has apparently led a very sheltered audio/HT life. Perhaps he is hearing challenged?  PS: You say tactile sense? Are you in the habit of the laying of hands on your speakers as you listen to them?  |
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Post by qdtjni on Jul 16, 2016 6:12:26 GMT -5
If he is talking about B&W they are fine for the UK listening habits but they traditionally lack the lower bass performance. Traditionally? |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 16, 2016 6:25:22 GMT -5
The Brits don't seem to be low bass freaks like us Yanks and others. B&W makes some great speakers but I have always found their subs to be lacking in the lowest bass, same with many Scandinavian and European speaker brands. There certainly are exceptions but I find this generalization to be usually true. (No offenses intended.)
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Post by qdtjni on Jul 16, 2016 6:39:36 GMT -5
The Brits don't seem to be low bass freaks like us Yanks and others. B&W makes some great speakers but I have always found their subs to be lacking in the lowest bass, same with many Scandinavian and European speaker brands. There certainly are exceptions but I find this generalization to be usually true. (No offenses intended.) Fair enough. Don't know about their subs but the last generation of the 800 series, D3 certainly have change that. Even the smallest floor stander, 804 D3, has a frequency response down to 20 Hz and to 24 Hz within +/- 3dB. I find them really good but they won't fill a huge room with deep bass on their own. |
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Post by vneal on Jul 16, 2016 6:43:27 GMT -5
The Brits don't seem to be low bass freaks like us Yanks and others. B&W makes some great speakers but I have always found their subs to be lacking in the lowest bass, same with many Scandinavian and European speaker brands. There certainly are exceptions but I find this generalization to be usually true. (No offenses intended.) I would agree. And I own B&W Speakers. I find most British designed loudspeakers image better. Depends what you want. I can add a good subwoofer. I can't change the way a speaker images |
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Post by geebo on Jul 16, 2016 9:09:25 GMT -5
Using the DVE HD Basics disc both my wife and I can hear a low frequency sweep starting at just before 20Hz and can feel it down to 16Hz. I'm using dual HSU-15 MK2's to reproduce LFE and other channels below 80Hz. This is a sweep from REW with 1/12 smoothing. You can see they pretty much coast down to 20Hz.  |
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Post by monkumonku on Jul 16, 2016 10:33:42 GMT -5
But you did say this: " All you have to do is take a test tone at 35 hz only and play it through your speakers. It will blow your mind away as you watch the cone move with no sound coming out. You will see the cone move and feel the vibrations emanating forth but you will hear nothing other than what cone makes by moving in and out." Is that still your contention? Maybe you can hear things but you are going to have to continuosly increase dbs as you move through the 40hz -30 hz spectrum. It becomes increasingly meaningless. Maybe the drivers i was listening to couldnt reproduce those tones in order for me to hear it at all. No matter what your going to hear less and less as you move down the frequency curve given a fixed db output lvl until it becomes meaningless for audio and becomes a tactile sense. The tactile sense is not meaningless because its a component of the entire user experience that adds realism to the overall human sense experience. Couple of things, one, it is true that the volume will seem to decrease as you move down the hz spectrum but that's what the Fletcher-Munson curve tells us. That's why many people use a house curve to adjust the bass, and that's why receivers and some other gear have a loudness button/switch. Two, you can indeed hear those tones down to about 20 hz. Just because the tactile impression outweighs the strictly audible part as the frequencies become lower doesn't mean you still can't hear them. I don't recall anyone in this thread saying that the tactile aspect of low frequencies is meaningless. The argument was whether or not those low frequencies were audible. |
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Post by Axis on Jul 16, 2016 10:59:55 GMT -5
Maybe you can hear things but you are going to have to continuosly increase dbs as you move through the 40hz -30 hz spectrum. It becomes increasingly meaningless. Maybe the drivers i was listening to couldnt reproduce those tones in order for me to hear it at all. No matter what your going to hear less and less as you move down the frequency curve given a fixed db output lvl until it becomes meaningless for audio and becomes a tactile sense. The tactile sense is not meaningless because its a component of the entire user experience that adds realism to the overall human sense experience. Couple of things, one, it is true that the volume will seem to decrease as you move down the hz spectrum but that's what the Fletcher-Munson curve tells us. That's why many people use a house curve to adjust the bass, and that's why receivers and some other gear have a loudness button/switch. Two, you can indeed hear those tones down to about 20 hz. Just because the tactile impression outweighs the strictly audible part as the frequencies become lower doesn't mean you still can't hear them. I don't recall anyone in this thread saying that the tactile aspect of low frequencies is meaningless. The argument was whether or not those low frequencies were audible. Hope it is ok to use your quote to post this monkumonku. I do think this member is going to concede to this fact. This is just like when someone gets in there head some snake oil. If this member was going to concede to a fact, he would have already done it with the facts presented. |
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Post by Axis on Jul 16, 2016 11:38:26 GMT -5
I'm currently using a pair of Jade 3's in my main system and in my experience, the bass has useful output into the mid 30's (Not bad for a 6" driver in a bookshelf enclosure). No, they are not going to shake the pictures off the walls, but what is there, is extremely articulate with a very "UNboxey" sound. Vocals are where these speakers really excel at. SUPER natural and uncolored. Norah Jones and Lou Rawls never sounded better! Filling out the bottom end with a quality sub is certainly easier than dealing with flaws in the mid and upper registers. Useful output into the mid 30s...what does this mean? You cannot audibly hear below 40 herz as it becomes vibration only. You would feel the vibrational pulse only. I had an audio salesman show this to me with a 40hz test tone twenty years ago. It was eye opening to say the least. This is the snake oil I am talking about. Once this member said this then it is a fight to the end to back it up. We all can remember something a salesman told us that we held on to for a long time. I could come up with some real zingers that I believed for awhile.  |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 16, 2016 12:43:42 GMT -5
Actually B&W does have one very nice sub along with its mediocre ones, but the darn box costs like $5000 US and that puts it way out of budget for most folks.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 16, 2016 12:50:51 GMT -5
The Brits don't seem to be low bass freaks like us Yanks and others. B&W makes some great speakers but I have always found their subs to be lacking in the lowest bass, same with many Scandinavian and European speaker brands. There certainly are exceptions but I find this generalization to be usually true. (No offenses intended.) Fair enough. Don't know about their subs but the last generation of the 800 series, D3 certainly have change that. Even the smallest floor stander, 804 D3, has a frequency response down to 20 Hz and to 24 Hz within +/- 3dB. I find them really good but they won't fill a huge room with deep bass on their own. Those seem to be great towers by B&W but I'm skeptical of those factory specs. They run almost 10 grand for a pair, yikes! I checked out the review by Brent Butterworth, at Home Theater Review and they tested the 804 D3: Frequency response On-axis: ±3.4 dB from 37 Hz to 17.8 kHz, -5.0 at 20 kHz Average ±30° horiz: ±3.0 dB from 37 Hz to 17.2 kHz, -6.6 at 20 kHz Average ±15° vert/horiz: ±3.2 dB from 37 Hz to 17.8 kHz, -5.7 to 20 kHz ( My bass response measurements did not meet B&W's spec of 24 Hz; the 37 Hz result I got was the best of the two measurement techniques I tried.) |
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