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Post by Cogito on Jul 14, 2016 8:32:33 GMT -5
Useful output into the mid 30s...what does this mean? You cannot audibly hear below 40 herz as it becomes vibration only. You would feel the vibrational pulse only. I had an audio salesman show this to me with a 40hz test tone twenty years ago. It was eye opening to say the least. Are you sure it becomes a vibration only? Have you tried it with a different sub? Then again, all sound is nothing but vibrations. So technically, he's right.  In my experience, 40Hz is definitely a discernible TONE from 30Hz. Hell, a piano goes down to 27.5 Hz, would he feel that as only a vibration? |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 14, 2016 12:13:11 GMT -5
Agree with your thoughts on the difference people have when listening to music as well as comparing speakers and equipment as a whole. My friend was in the market for new speakers last year and purchased a pair of Wharfedale Jade3's. To me there was little on the low end while the highs and mid did sound clear and accurate. He loved these speakers as well as another buddy of ours who claimed he did not like a lot of low end if any in his listening. To me the Jade3's were void of low end and music sounded hollow. I could not imagine how dull music would sound without any bass. Everyone hears differently, everyone likes differently. I respectively will make a comment that may bend the ears of a few on this forum. Spending thousands does not mean you are getting the best nor does it mean the purchase is a good value. That said IMO I do not see where the quality comes in on a $350.00 speaker. It costs money to develop, research, manufacture and market. Whatever is left goes into the quality part of the equation. Good to better crossovers IMO are the most important ingredient in the crafting of a good well rounded speakers. What quality crossover goes into a $350.00 speaker? You decide. blue, that is because you have never hear the Maggie MMG's. $300.00 ea sold in a pair for $599.00. Maybe not for every one but for me panels are the only way to go. There is simply nothing better at their price point. .......Funny you mention that my oldest son and I were in a brick-and-mortar store and where listening to a pair of those that where hooked up to a tube amp mids where to die for. Now yep they where in a demo room but still sweeties mids I have heard, now they where asking a bit more for them. The only thing I notice that once you left The Sweet Spot the sound stage seemed to drop off, but man some great looking speakers. It was my son who had told me that he ran into them so we both went check them out. Oh, my bad, it was their electrostatic speakers forgot to put that in same maker though.. |
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Post by gzubeck on Jul 14, 2016 12:26:47 GMT -5
Ive owned b&ws speakers including the cdm with the high end mid range driver. After i started building my own speakers im not so impressed with the brittish sound anymore. Im much more impressed with seas, scanspeak, and sb acoustics etc. Than buying premade expensive speakers. For one the lowish sensitivity in their designs require very powerful amps. My sb acoustics midwoofer with a seas tweater simply embarrases the b&w speakers. Things im looking for are 3d imaging and very natural sounding speakers that absolutely disappear with a high quality source signal. Acually streaming netflix audio provides very good test examples for me even better than bluray discs for movies. Lol! Speakers are subjective IMO. Glad you are happy with your home grown. You were not specific about what B&W's you have had. The 800 series are sublime in all categories. They keep on getting better. I believe below the 800 series the sound changes dramatically, except I will say, in B&W's vintage speakers. IMO the diamond series ALL sound life like and the 3dimensional sound is right there. BTW that 3dimensional sound you mentioned can be acquired with just about any speaker that is toed in properly. Toe in, speaker placement is imperative! Yes, a quality speaker is important but in your post you failed to mention the crossover which is the heart of a speaker design. It makes or breaks what you are listening too. As far as power...you are mistaken that you need mega watts to drive B&W's. In my HT I am using the Outlaw 7700 200watts per channel amplifier in a 25'by 11' room wth 6.5-7' ceilings...it sounds awesome. My 2channel may surprise you. The B&W803 diamonds are being fuel with Bob Latino's tube mono-blocks in triode mode @65watts per channel. I have also driven the diamonds with the same amplifiers with just 2output tubes in triode @35watts per channel. At this writing I am using 4output tubes compared to 2output tubes but I am considering which configuration to use further down the road. Comparing 65watts to 35watts is a challenge but it is also fun to critique your own system...lol Just because theyre home grown does not mean that i dont know what im doing. The drivers alone cost me $110 per speaker ($50 tweeter, $60 for 6.5 inch woofer) the enclosures are off the shelf but they are sturdy with a port in the back that helps reduce cabinet vibration and ive turned the ports into a kind of aperiodic design that lets the woofers move freely but the back wave does not affect the external sound allowing for deep lows. I use half inch foam and real wool for internal cabinet dampening. I cross over low because my seas tweeter can and the sb acoustics woofer has enough headroom up 3000 khz. It is a simple two way system unlike the wharfdale which uses a 3 inch metal composite for the midrange. The wharfdale is a threeway just by looking at it...for me the seas has the most natural sounding tweeter and the b&ws are harsh sounding in the higher frequencies. I have not been impressed with their tweeters. What b&w excels at is their $300 midrange driver which is attached to the back of their cabinet in their speakers. Also their low frequency drive units are interesting but im really not into full tower speakers as you lose too much imaging for my taste. Might as well have an external subwoofer and have smaller speakers on stands imho. The crossover components are somewhat important as i would be concerned about dcr resistence in the design and usually use 18 gauge or larger to keep dcr at .6 or lower. If your going to lose sound quality its with using poor resistors when designing your lpad in crossover design. As long as you use quality caps ...meaning not super expensive stuff...you will not really notice any degradtion of sound quality. Ive learned that managing speaker plaecemnt and reducing some room reflexions affect your sound quality much more than crossover components. Also, do not under estimate break in time. It took three months for my woofers to break in and seemlessly work with the tweeters. But once it happened its magic. |
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Post by gzubeck on Jul 14, 2016 12:35:57 GMT -5
Are you sure it becomes a vibration only? Have you tried it with a different sub? Then again, all sound is nothing but vibrations. So technically, he's right. In my experience, 40Hz is definitely a discernible TONE from 30Hz. Hell, a piano goes down to 27.5 Hz, would he feel that as only a vibration? Let me know what you hear at the 40 khz region mr bat ears....below 40 hz you will only see the cone moving and feel the the pressure waves of the cone when you eliminate the sound frequencies higher than 40 hz. What you really are talking about are the different harmonic interactions and the behavior of the woofer cone curve down to 30 hz. From 30-40 hz you hear nothing and feel everything... |
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Post by gzubeck on Jul 14, 2016 12:42:53 GMT -5
By the way...ive watched a few youtube videos on the jade 3 and one guy has alot of demo tracks but he has them over tile floors. He would be better served by placing small carpets under the speakers to reduce room interaction and echo chamber sound reflections.
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Post by Cogito on Jul 14, 2016 13:26:19 GMT -5
Then again, all sound is nothing but vibrations. So technically, he's right. In my experience, 40Hz is definitely a discernible TONE from 30Hz. Hell, a piano goes down to 27.5 Hz, would he feel that as only a vibration? Let me know what you hear at the 40 khz region mr bat ears....below 40 hz you will only see the cone moving and feel the the pressure waves of the cone when you eliminate the sound frequencies higher than 40 hz. What you really are talking about are the different harmonic interactions and the behavior of the woofer cone curve down to 30 hz. From 30-40 hz you hear nothing and feel everything... "Mr. Bat Ears"? Really? How cute, considering a bat is known for it's SUPERSONIC hearing prowess... Up to around 100 Khz, BTW. Anyway, I "hear" no reason to continue with this back-n-forth. You'll hear what you hear or not... BTW Just what is that red bar under your profile that says "50%"? |
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Post by gzubeck on Jul 14, 2016 14:03:38 GMT -5
Let me know what you hear at the 40 khz region mr bat ears....below 40 hz you will only see the cone moving and feel the the pressure waves of the cone when you eliminate the sound frequencies higher than 40 hz. What you really are talking about are the different harmonic interactions and the behavior of the woofer cone curve down to 30 hz. From 30-40 hz you hear nothing and feel everything... "Mr. Bat Ears"? Really? How cute, considering a bat is known for it's SUPERSONIC hearing prowess... Up to around 100 Khz, BTW. Anyway, I "hear" no reason to continue with this back-n-forth. You'll hear what you hear or not... BTW Just what is that red bar under your profile that says "50%"? The point is that human hearing cannot hear above 20khz and below 40hz. You can get sonic interactions that might affect sound in the audible spectrum but you cannot actually hear these frequencies but they might have affects on our audible ranges with second, third, harmonics. The 50% bar i have no clue what this rating is. Iv enever been banned or anything like that. |
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Post by indyscammer on Jul 14, 2016 14:35:51 GMT -5
The allmighty Google says: Sensitivity of Human Ear. The human ear can respond to minute pressure variations in the air if they are in the audible frequency range, roughly 20 Hz - 20 kHz. It is capable of detecting pressure variations of less than one billionth of atmospheric pressure.
As with most human things I assume somes better than this and somes worse than this.
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Post by gzubeck on Jul 14, 2016 14:45:18 GMT -5
The allmighty Google says: Sensitivity of Human Ear. The human ear can respond to minute pressure variations in the air if they are in the audible frequency range, roughly 20 Hz - 20 kHz. It is capable of detecting pressure variations of less than one billionth of atmospheric pressure. As with most human things I assume somes better than this and somes worse than this. 20 hz is most certainly not audible. Your entire body can feel those vibrations and give you the feeling of the sound waves as they hit your entire body. So psychologically you associate the pressure wave with the attached audible wave associated with the music or explosions you heard the nanosecond before the audible frequency hits you. All you have to do is take a test tone at 35 hz only and play it through your speakers. It will blow your mind away as you watch the cone move with no sound coming out. You will see the cone move and feel the vibrations emanating forth but you will hear nothing other than what cone makes by moving in and out. |
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Post by monkumonku on Jul 14, 2016 15:11:13 GMT -5
The allmighty Google says: Sensitivity of Human Ear. The human ear can respond to minute pressure variations in the air if they are in the audible frequency range, roughly 20 Hz - 20 kHz. It is capable of detecting pressure variations of less than one billionth of atmospheric pressure. As with most human things I assume somes better than this and somes worse than this. 20 hz is most certainly not audible. Your entire body can feel those vibrations and give you the feeling of the sound waves as they hit your entire body. So psychologically you associate the pressure wave with the attached audible wave associated with the music or explosions you heard the nanosecond before the audible frequency hits you. All you have to do is take a test tone at 35 hz only and play it through your speakers. It will blow your mind away as you watch the cone move with no sound coming out. You will see the cone move and feel the vibrations emanating forth but you will hear nothing other than what cone makes by moving in and out. Indyscammer posted what Google had to say about the subject so I think it would be helpful if you could reference a source to support what you are saying, that humans are not capable of hearing tones below 40 hz. |
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Post by geebo on Jul 14, 2016 15:18:33 GMT -5
20 hz is most certainly not audible. Your entire body can feel those vibrations and give you the feeling of the sound waves as they hit your entire body. So psychologically you associate the pressure wave with the attached audible wave associated with the music or explosions you heard the nanosecond before the audible frequency hits you. All you have to do is take a test tone at 35 hz only and play it through your speakers. It will blow your mind away as you watch the cone move with no sound coming out. You will see the cone move and feel the vibrations emanating forth but you will hear nothing other than what cone makes by moving in and out. Indyscammer posted what Google had to say about the subject so I think it would be helpful if you could reference a source to support what you are saying, that humans are not capable of hearing tones below 40 hz. +1. I'd like to see that as well. The 20Hz test tone from the HSU test disc is certainly audible. Below that the cone movement is present and the pressure waves can be felt but not heard. And using my Oppo cans I can hear the freq sweep to below 25Hz. |
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hemster
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...still listening... still watching
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Post by hemster on Jul 14, 2016 15:20:50 GMT -5
We all have different hearing acuity but if you wish you can test yours at the site below. It has several useful test tones but we aware of the limitation of your sound card on your device. Also you may find the articles useful.
>>linky for low frequency<<Clink on the play button under "The Test File". |
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Post by monkumonku on Jul 14, 2016 15:28:04 GMT -5
We all have different hearing acuity but if you wish you can test yours at the site below. It has several useful test tones but we aware of the limitation of your sound card on your device. Also you may find the articles useful.
>>linky for low frequency<<Clink on the play button under "The Test File". Well maybe there's some truth to that. I can't hear those tones through my desktop speakers. In fact, my theory is anything below 150 hz is not audible.  |
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Post by doc1963 on Jul 14, 2016 15:31:26 GMT -5
From Wikipedia... The commonly stated range of human hearing is 20 Hz to 20 kHz. Under ideal laboratory conditions, humans can hear sound as low as 12 Hz and as high as 28 kHz, though the threshold increases sharply at 15 kHz in adults, corresponding to the last auditory channel of the cochlea. Humans are most sensitive to (i.e. able to discern at lowest intensity) frequencies between 2,000 and 5,000 Hz. Individual hearing range varies according to the general condition of a human's ears and nervous system. The range shrinks during life, usually beginning at around age of eight with the upper frequency limit being reduced.If you cannot "hear" a 20hz tone, maybe your ears haven't ran out of gas, but your speakers likely have....  |
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Post by garbulky on Jul 14, 2016 15:37:01 GMT -5
The allmighty Google says: Sensitivity of Human Ear. The human ear can respond to minute pressure variations in the air if they are in the audible frequency range, roughly 20 Hz - 20 kHz. It is capable of detecting pressure variations of less than one billionth of atmospheric pressure. As with most human things I assume somes better than this and somes worse than this. 20 hz is most certainly not audible. Your entire body can feel those vibrations and give you the feeling of the sound waves as they hit your entire body. So psychologically you associate the pressure wave with the attached audible wave associated with the music or explosions you heard the nanosecond before the audible frequency hits you. All you have to do is take a test tone at 35 hz only and play it through your speakers. It will blow your mind away as you watch the cone move with no sound coming out. You will see the cone move and feel the vibrations emanating forth but you will hear nothing other than what cone makes by moving in and out. Imo it may depend on the drivers. I have heard speakers which did that. The cone moves no sound except for port chuffing. But I think I recall hearing my speakers down to 25 hz. At that point the volume had dropped quite a bit. But I was still getting some decent output at 30 hz. I may be wrong. I have to go back and check. B'zillas dual subs went strong at 25 hz and kept going lower, but I am not sure where they were. |
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Post by gzubeck on Jul 14, 2016 15:50:38 GMT -5
Basically....i think i can hear the birds chirping....20 miles away....i wonder what amount of sound vs. feeling the pressure wave has in the bigger picture of this argument. If i can feel it 99% of the time and think i can hear that faint 1% it must have a meaningful impact on my user experience as a home audio enthusiast!
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Post by garbulky on Jul 14, 2016 16:06:19 GMT -5
Basically....i think i can hear the birds chirping....20 miles away....i wonder what amount of sound vs. feeling the pressure wave has in the bigger picture of this argument. If i can feel it 99% of the time and think i can hear that faint 1% it must have a meaningful impact on my user experience as a home audio enthusiast! Well most music is not "supposed" to have much music down there. It's supposed to be relatively sparse below 50 hz. Though I have encountered several with low bass notes like the open bass of the double bass. Kick drums will also carry low notes. Home theater though has tons of deep bass. |
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Post by Cogito on Jul 14, 2016 17:09:24 GMT -5
Basically....i think i can hear the birds chirping....20 miles away....i wonder what amount of sound vs. feeling the pressure wave has in the bigger picture of this argument. If i can feel it 99% of the time and think i can hear that faint 1% it must have a meaningful impact on my user experience as a home audio enthusiast! Well most music is not "supposed" to have much music down there. It's supposed to be relatively sparse below 50 hz. Though I have encountered several with low bass notes like the open bass of the double bass. Kick drums will also carry low notes. Home theater though has tons of deep bass. All depends on what type of music you listen to. Not much deep bass in typical rock/pop, but much of classical music does. BTW I wonder What gzubecks explanation of earphones reproduction of sub 40Hz sounds. Not sure you are going to get a lot of "feeling the bass". Yet magically, the bass is there!!!! |
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Post by vneal on Jul 14, 2016 17:31:11 GMT -5
My JL Audio sends out test tones and you can hear and feel below 30 at 10 you feel no hear
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Post by Deleted on Jul 14, 2016 17:39:57 GMT -5
Then again, all sound is nothing but vibrations. So technically, he's right. In my experience, 40Hz is definitely a discernible TONE from 30Hz. Hell, a piano goes down to 27.5 Hz, would he feel that as only a vibration? Let me know what you hear at the 40 khz region mr bat ears....below 40 hz you will only see the cone moving and feel the the pressure waves of the cone when you eliminate the sound frequencies higher than 40 hz. What you really are talking about are the different harmonic interactions and the behavior of the woofer cone curve down to 30 hz. From 30-40 hz you hear nothing and feel everything... gzubeck, a little online research will quickly confirm what is known by all sound experts and most experienced audio enthusiasts. .......... The average person with normal hearing can hear (yes you can feel them too) low bass notes down to about 20Hz (this is considered as standard knowledge). .......... Above 80Hz a person can identify the location that the bass is coming from. .......... Below 80Hz a person cannot locate the source of the bass and the low bass seems to be omni-directional. This is why many experts recommend crossing over a single sub at 80Hz and below and one will usually have multiple choices for the sub's placement. .......... At or below about 20Hz the average person can no longer hear this very low bass and can only feel it. .......... Note, these are the fundamental tones. Tones also have overtones/harmonics that will also reproduce a tone at a higher frequency. Thus if you have a bass tone of 60Hz you would clearly hear it but not be able to tell that the 60Hz tone was recorded to the right. However, the overtone at 120Hz and usually played thru the right speaker/track would allow you to know that the bass instrument or source came from the right side during the recording. The above is considered standard entry level knowledge in this hobby. |
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