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Post by gzubeck on Jul 14, 2016 19:18:30 GMT -5
Maybe the argument should be who cares whats below 40hz because there s a sparsity of actual material unless its in a movie soundtrack. What kind of musical recordings are available that take advantage of these lower frequencies? Does 99% of the population even care if the lowest frequency your speaker can handle is 40 herz before a huge dropoff in decibels. How much is the decibel dropoff between 20-40hz in the audible range for the vast majority of speakers not including a $1000 subwoofer. At what frequecy does the general ambient noise level exceed the decibel level coming from your lower frequency drivers. Maybe the argument should have started with worrying about hearing stuff down lower maybe non relavant on most systems because you cant hear it unless you have specialized equipment to take advantage of that 1% in recordings. My argument should have been one of practicality in real world situations vs the impractibility of even worrying about faint hearings of average day lower frequency usage.
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hemster
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Post by hemster on Jul 14, 2016 19:27:00 GMT -5
Sure, below a certain frequency it transitions to tactile but there are those people that (a) have subs that dip that low and (b) have the necessary grunt in those subs to make a perceptible difference to their overall experience - most likely only for movies. But that shouldn't discount their contention that sub 30Hz sound (pun intended) isn't worthwhile. It does matter in the overall enjoyment of their movies.
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Post by gzubeck on Jul 14, 2016 20:35:28 GMT -5
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 14, 2016 20:52:51 GMT -5
It says: Also, the SPL meter used loses precision below 31 Hz, so the output recorded there is not reliable.
Quite different from your misinterpretation of the article! |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 14, 2016 21:04:11 GMT -5
Maybe the argument should be who cares whats below 40hz because there s a sparsity of actual material unless its in a movie soundtrack. What kind of musical recordings are available that take advantage of these lower frequencies? Does 99% of the population even care if the lowest frequency your speaker can handle is 40 herz before a huge dropoff in decibels. How much is the decibel dropoff between 20-40hz in the audible range for the vast majority of speakers not including a $1000 subwoofer. At what frequecy does the general ambient noise level exceed the decibel level coming from your lower frequency drivers. Maybe the argument should have started with worrying about hearing stuff down lower maybe non relavant on most systems because you cant hear it unless you have specialized equipment to take advantage of that 1% in recordings. My argument should have been one of practicality in real world situations vs the impractibility of even worrying about faint hearings of average day lower frequency usage. You need to do some study to understand simple audio sound basics. Your misinformation posted here and arguments in circles makes me dizzy. There are lots of music sources that go well below 30Hz including synthetic low bass and pipe organ music (16Hz for 32' pipes and 8Hz for 64' pipes such as in the Sydney Opera House). Most movies have low bass down to 25Hz and lower at high levels, especially in the LFE track at +10 decibels. Most people in audio and almost all into HT have one or more subs. All subs go below 40Hz at -3dB's, most go below 30Hz to 25Hz or so and many of the good subs reach 25Hz to 20Hz and the best go below 20Hz at -3dB's. These levels are all at acceptable distortion. Even some very high end tower go below 30Hz at -3dB. |
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Post by gzubeck on Jul 15, 2016 2:17:14 GMT -5
Maybe the argument should be who cares whats below 40hz because there s a sparsity of actual material unless its in a movie soundtrack. What kind of musical recordings are available that take advantage of these lower frequencies? Does 99% of the population even care if the lowest frequency your speaker can handle is 40 herz before a huge dropoff in decibels. How much is the decibel dropoff between 20-40hz in the audible range for the vast majority of speakers not including a $1000 subwoofer. At what frequecy does the general ambient noise level exceed the decibel level coming from your lower frequency drivers. Maybe the argument should have started with worrying about hearing stuff down lower maybe non relavant on most systems because you cant hear it unless you have specialized equipment to take advantage of that 1% in recordings. My argument should have been one of practicality in real world situations vs the impractibility of even worrying about faint hearings of average day lower frequency usage. You need to do some study to understand simple audio sound basics. Your misinformation posted here and arguments in circles makes me dizzy. LP There are lots of music sources that go well below 30Hz including synthetic low bass and pipe organ music (16Hz for 32' pipes and 8Hz for 64' pipes such as in the Sydney Opera House). Most movies have low bass down to 25Hz and lower at high levels, especially in the LFE track at +10 decibels. Most people in audio and almost all into HT have one or more subs. All subs go below 40Hz at -3dB's, most go below 30Hz to 25Hz or so and many of the good subs reach 25Hz to 20Hz and the best go below 20Hz at -3dB's. These levels are all at acceptable distortion. Even some very high end tower go below 30Hz at -3dB. Did you even bother to read the article? They were testing people at different frequencies to determine what they heard and how they responded to the different frequencies. Even though there might be sounds at lower frequencies you cannot hear a pipe organ at 16 hz. Were going around in circles because your not understanding my argument. Even though an object like a pipe organ or piano can produce those lower frequencies you may not be able to hear them because most speakers cannot produce those sounds and if they did those sounds are over shadowed by the tactile sounds. Thats always been my argument...the relevance of those sounds not the fact that there might be some slight audible sounds at 30 hz. Unless you can tell me exactly where the audible becomes tactile sound only or so greatly diminished that audible sound becomes pointless we will continue to go round and round on this. Just because something is measured to 16hz doesnt mean that you can hear it. It is simply measured! |
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Post by bluemeanies on Jul 15, 2016 5:31:09 GMT -5
Speakers are subjective IMO. Glad you are happy with your home grown. You were not specific about what B&W's you have had. The 800 series are sublime in all categories. They keep on getting better. I believe below the 800 series the sound changes dramatically, except I will say, in B&W's vintage speakers. IMO the diamond series ALL sound life like and the 3dimensional sound is right there. BTW that 3dimensional sound you mentioned can be acquired with just about any speaker that is toed in properly. Toe in, speaker placement is imperative! Yes, a quality speaker is important but in your post you failed to mention the crossover which is the heart of a speaker design. It makes or breaks what you are listening too. As far as power...you are mistaken that you need mega watts to drive B&W's. In my HT I am using the Outlaw 7700 200watts per channel amplifier in a 25'by 11' room wth 6.5-7' ceilings...it sounds awesome. My 2channel may surprise you. The B&W803 diamonds are being fuel with Bob Latino's tube mono-blocks in triode mode @65watts per channel. I have also driven the diamonds with the same amplifiers with just 2output tubes in triode @35watts per channel. At this writing I am using 4output tubes compared to 2output tubes but I am considering which configuration to use further down the road. Comparing 65watts to 35watts is a challenge but it is also fun to critique your own system...lol Just because theyre home grown does not mean that i dont know what im doing. The drivers alone cost me $110 per speaker ($50 tweeter, $60 for 6.5 inch woofer) the enclosures are off the shelf but they are sturdy with a port in the back that helps reduce cabinet vibration and ive turned the ports into a kind of aperiodic design that lets the woofers move freely but the back wave does not affect the external sound allowing for deep lows. I use half inch foam and real wool for internal cabinet dampening. I cross over low because my seas tweeter can and the sb acoustics woofer has enough headroom up 3000 khz. It is a simple two way system unlike the wharfdale which uses a 3 inch metal composite for the midrange. The wharfdale is a threeway just by looking at it...for me the seas has the most natural sounding tweeter and the b&ws are harsh sounding in the higher frequencies. I have not been impressed with their tweeters. What b&w excels at is their $300 midrange driver which is attached to the back of their cabinet in their speakers. Also their low frequency drive units are interesting but im really not into full tower speakers as you lose too much imaging for my taste. Might as well have an external subwoofer and have smaller speakers on stands imho. The crossover components are somewhat important as i would be concerned about dcr resistence in the design and usually use 18 gauge or larger to keep dcr at .6 or lower. If your going to lose sound quality its with using poor resistors when designing your lpad in crossover design. As long as you use quality caps ...meaning not super expensive stuff...you will not really notice any degradtion of sound quality. Ive learned that managing speaker plaecemnt and reducing some room reflexions affect your sound quality much more than crossover components. Also, do not under estimate break in time. It took three months for my woofers to break in and seemlessly work with the tweeters. But once it happened its magic. Never said or hinted that you did not know what your are doing. As I stated I'm glad your happy with your speakers and your accomplishment. I believe that everyone hears things differently. You mentioned that the B&W tweeters sound harsh to you, but as I mentioned in the previous post you do not list what B&W's you were listening too. I'm curious exactly as to the model. I myself have listened to some B&W models that I did not like but they were not the diamonds or B&W's S series. I previously owned the B&W804S speaker and when I went to tubes I notice a big difference in both tweeter and midrange. Actually there was no real need to step up to the diamond series except for the fact that they were offered to me at a well below retail price and they were never out of the box. In addition I was able to sell my 804's for more than half of what I paid for them after owning them for 8+ years. I have to disagree with you on the crossover. IMO the crossover design is the heart of the speaker and can make the poorest of speaker sound good... Just different strokes for different folks. No hard feelings here. |
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Post by Cogito on Jul 15, 2016 8:11:25 GMT -5
How does this article support your assertion that "You cannot audibly hear below 40 herz as it becomes vibration only". |
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Post by monkumonku on Jul 15, 2016 9:11:57 GMT -5
I'm currently using a pair of Jade 3's in my main system and in my experience, the bass has useful output into the mid 30's (Not bad for a 6" driver in a bookshelf enclosure). No, they are not going to shake the pictures off the walls, but what is there, is extremely articulate with a very "UNboxey" sound. Vocals are where these speakers really excel at. SUPER natural and uncolored. Norah Jones and Lou Rawls never sounded better! Filling out the bottom end with a quality sub is certainly easier than dealing with flaws in the mid and upper registers. Useful output into the mid 30s...what does this mean? You cannot audibly hear below 40 herz as it becomes vibration only. You would feel the vibrational pulse only. I had an audio salesman show this to me with a 40hz test tone twenty years ago. It was eye opening to say the least. *** I quoted the above because that was your initial post in this thread, which to a large degree has now become an argument over whether humans can "hear" frequencies below 40 hz. However, note that Cogito's original statement was that his speakers have "..useful output into the mid 30's..." By that, I would assume he means his speakers generate, and he is able to perceive, tones that are as low as the mid 30 hz range. In other words, his senses recognize that. So whether it is actually hearing it or feeling it, nevertheless he is perceiving it and isn't that what really matters? Because if what you say is true, then what would be the point of having any speaker that went below 40 hz if we can't hear it anyway? That said, I believe we can audibly perceive tones below 40 hz as I can recall playing test tones through my system and being able to hear them (pure tones, not pink or white noise) down to around 20 hz. I believe I "heard" them because I could distinguish between the tones. But even so, even if I did not really "hear" this, I perceived it. In the post in question, Cogito never said he heard frequencies to the mid 30's in a strict audible sense but that his speakers had useful output to that range. To me that is like a subwoofer that has useful output down to 15 hz. I will grant that we cannot audibly distinguish a 15 hz tone, but we can perceive that output. The Audioholics article you referenced does not seem to speak directly to the point of what is audible versus felt; it mainly addresses the tactile aspect of bass. Whether or not we can "hear" the low frequencies, it is still important to have a system that can reproduce those because we can still perceive them. And music does have those frequencies, albeit in a small proportion to the entire tonal range, but it still has it. |
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Post by garbulky on Jul 15, 2016 9:40:48 GMT -5
@guzbeck
The audioholics article is a study on a particular effect of very high output bass. If you notice some of their measurements are at 150 db. Not really about regular experience in real life.
I did a bass test and my axioms were quite strong to 40hz. Then the output slowly decreased to the mid 30's. After it started dropping but with some decent audible output at 25 hz yet quite attenated at that point. In large living rooms the axioms only got to about 50 hz or hte upper 60 hz with authority.
But let's talk about actual music.In my smaller more bass friendly room, the axioms feel nearly ful lrange. So much so that I do not really miss the subwoofer. However I can tell that there is a bit missing. You can tell there is an obvious cut off. For instance when the room is pressurized by a sound, it is not done completely. also when double bass play you can tell that about 3/4's is what you hear. The last 25% is what the speaker can't reproduce completely.
Then I went to B'zilla's room. His subs are full range and I could hear the difference. The kick drum was more full. The double bass felt more of real instment wit the note being more "round" in sound. More importantly, with dual subs, the imaging was better. The sound felt more full bodied and anchored in space better.
That setup happened to be right there in the top two sound quality I've heard and the dual subs contributed hugely to that.
Part of that is because the frequency response was more even, but part of it may have been due to more extended full range bass.
However the more full range a speaker, the harder it is to get locked in quite right. One position may have better imaging while another position may have a bit more bass.
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Post by Cogito on Jul 15, 2016 9:57:11 GMT -5
Useful output into the mid 30s...what does this mean? You cannot audibly hear below 40 herz as it becomes vibration only. You would feel the vibrational pulse only. I had an audio salesman show this to me with a 40hz test tone twenty years ago. It was eye opening to say the least. *** I quoted the above because that was your initial post in this thread, which to a large degree has now become an argument over whether humans can "hear" frequencies below 40 hz. However, note that Cogito's original statement was that his speakers have "..useful output into the mid 30's..." By that, I would assume he means his speakers generate, and he is able to perceive, tones that are as low as the mid 30 hz range. In other words, his senses recognize that. So whether it is actually hearing it or feeling it, nevertheless he is perceiving it and isn't that what really matters? Because if what you say is true, then what would be the point of having any speaker that went below 40 hz if we can't hear it anyway? That said, I believe we can audibly perceive tones below 40 hz as I can recall playing test tones through my system and being able to hear them (pure tones, not pink or white noise) down to around 20 hz. I believe I "heard" them because I could distinguish between the tones. But even so, even if I did not really "hear" this, I perceived it. In the post in question, Cogito never said he heard frequencies to the mid 30's in a strict audible sense but that his speakers had useful output to that range. To me that is like a subwoofer that has useful output down to 15 hz. I will grant that we cannot audibly distinguish a 15 hz tone, but we can perceive that output. The Audioholics article you referenced does not seem to speak directly to the point of what is audible versus felt; it mainly addresses the tactile aspect of bass. Whether or not we can "hear" the low frequencies, it is still important to have a system that can reproduce those because we can still perceive them. And music does have those frequencies, albeit in a small proportion to the entire tonal range, but it still has it. I believe gzubeck's argument can be disproved by simply listening to these 40Hz and below test tones through headphones or earbuds as I have done, where there's no actual interaction between the tones and the rest of my body (Obviously). My results using a pair of inexpensive Sony XB50AP in-ear headphones (rated down to 4Hz, BTW. And yes, I know this is WELL below AUDIBILTY), the tones between 40Hz, and 30Hz were EASILY discernable from one another, even at low levels. Let me emphasize that there were AUDIBLE tone differences and not simply vibrations I could "feel". I'd suggest everyone to give it a try and let me know if I'm NOT hearing things. |
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Post by pedrocols on Jul 15, 2016 10:04:48 GMT -5
I am running test tones of 40hz as I write this and I can guarantee you I can hear the tones. Be mindful I am also using a SPL meter to make sure the tone is playing and I am not hearing things.
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Post by monkumonku on Jul 15, 2016 10:39:00 GMT -5
I am running test tones of 40hz as I write this and I can guarantee you I can hear the tones. Be mindful I am also using a SPL meter to make sure the tone is playing and I am not hearing things. But how do you test your SPL meter?  |
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Post by geebo on Jul 15, 2016 10:40:07 GMT -5
*** I quoted the above because that was your initial post in this thread, which to a large degree has now become an argument over whether humans can "hear" frequencies below 40 hz. However, note that Cogito's original statement was that his speakers have "..useful output into the mid 30's..." By that, I would assume he means his speakers generate, and he is able to perceive, tones that are as low as the mid 30 hz range. In other words, his senses recognize that. So whether it is actually hearing it or feeling it, nevertheless he is perceiving it and isn't that what really matters? Because if what you say is true, then what would be the point of having any speaker that went below 40 hz if we can't hear it anyway? That said, I believe we can audibly perceive tones below 40 hz as I can recall playing test tones through my system and being able to hear them (pure tones, not pink or white noise) down to around 20 hz. I believe I "heard" them because I could distinguish between the tones. But even so, even if I did not really "hear" this, I perceived it. In the post in question, Cogito never said he heard frequencies to the mid 30's in a strict audible sense but that his speakers had useful output to that range. To me that is like a subwoofer that has useful output down to 15 hz. I will grant that we cannot audibly distinguish a 15 hz tone, but we can perceive that output. The Audioholics article you referenced does not seem to speak directly to the point of what is audible versus felt; it mainly addresses the tactile aspect of bass. Whether or not we can "hear" the low frequencies, it is still important to have a system that can reproduce those because we can still perceive them. And music does have those frequencies, albeit in a small proportion to the entire tonal range, but it still has it. I believe gzubeck's argument can be disproved by simply listening to these 40Hz and below test tones through headphones or earbuds as I have done, where there's no actual interaction between the tones and the rest of my body (Obviously). My results using a pair of inexpensive Sony XB50AP in-ear headphones (rated down to 4Hz, BTW. And yes, I know this is WELL below AUDIBILTY), the tones between 40Hz, and 30Hz were EASILY discernable from one another, even at low levels. Let me emphasize that there were AUDIBLE tone differences and not simply vibrations I could "feel". I'd suggest everyone to give it a try and let me know if I'm NOT hearing things. Exactly. I can easily hear sub 25Hz tones with my Oppo PM-2s. |
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Post by pedrocols on Jul 15, 2016 11:44:26 GMT -5
I am running test tones of 40hz as I write this and I can guarantee you I can hear the tones. Be mindful I am also using a SPL meter to make sure the tone is playing and I am not hearing things. But how do you test your SPL meter? Good question but a little off topic... |
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KeithL
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Post by KeithL on Jul 15, 2016 11:54:46 GMT -5
There are calibration gadgets for testing SPL meters..... they put out calibrated tones at calibrated levels (usually through a little adapter that attached directly to the microphone somehow). Since the calibrators are somewhat expensive, and most people have limited use for them (and THEY themselves also have to be calibrated), it would be more usual to send your SPL meter out to a "test equipment calibration house" who would calibrate it for you.... just like you have test microphones calibrated. Since this usually costs a few hundred dollars, most people don't bother for cheap meters, and just "trust" them to be "within spec". A good calibration house should provide calibration that is traceable to NIST (the National Institute of Standards) standards. The same process applies to colorimeters - used to calibrate projectors and monitors. They are stated to be within certain specs when you buy them. However, they age over time, and so should be rec-calibrated or replaced every so often. As with meters, it may not be possible to calibrate cheap colorimeters, or doing so may cost more than buying a new one, in which case you either toss them or use them for less critical measurements after a certain age. (The manufacturer of a given device SHOULD be able to tell you how long it will remain accurate, how far it is likely to drift over a given period of time, and whether it can be calibrated or not.) But how do you test your SPL meter? Good question but a little off topic... |
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stiehl11
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Post by stiehl11 on Jul 15, 2016 12:47:24 GMT -5
The real question is whether you can hear the "brown note" or just feel it.
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Post by vneal on Jul 15, 2016 12:50:36 GMT -5
The real question is whether you can hear the "brown note" or just feel it. Ask Cartman he just sh** his pants |
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KeithL
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Post by KeithL on Jul 15, 2016 13:16:43 GMT -5
I think you just experience it  The real question is whether you can hear the "brown note" or just feel it. |
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Post by gzubeck on Jul 15, 2016 13:56:03 GMT -5
To some people a nickel is meaningful, to others a five dollar bill, and even more $500 dollars...this whole debate started with the statement meaniful output at 30 hz...i look at it and think its a nickle statement...to others it might be a five dollar bill...to the original poster he gets his $500 worth of meaniful vibrations...to others we get quality brown jokes....
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