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Post by Axis on Sept 20, 2016 22:52:44 GMT -5
Are you guys in the 16 channel Atmos world ? You are getting ahead of yourself if you are.
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Post by TempTag on Sept 20, 2016 22:58:18 GMT -5
Are you guys in the 16 channel Atmos world ? You are getting ahead of yourself if you are. I just put in an 11 channel Marantz and with Atmos I can see an easy sell for 16 with a larger room. (Especially with the current devices matrixing out to all speakers even without an Atmos track.) |
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Post by Axis on Sept 20, 2016 23:02:48 GMT -5
You guys got the most current most advanced room correction system on the market with a PrePro that has the best sound quality out there for less than $2500. Go look at the price you have to pay for that elsewhere.
Give me a break !
The two channel balanced preamp and the balance mono amps can not be bought for any money anywhere that will give better performance. Go spend you money somewhere else and see what you get for it.
You want to battle ?
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Post by TempTag on Sept 20, 2016 23:10:22 GMT -5
No argument on the merits of the XMC - especially for the price - just wish it had more channels. As to the premise of this thread, the elimination of the XPR leaves the XMC with one less high spec amp option. (Though this market is outside my normal mid/mid+ price point so the demise of the XPR was no loss for me.)
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Post by Loop 7 on Sept 21, 2016 0:02:11 GMT -5
The addition of lifestyle genre products is just good business and it consumes engineering cycles. I would love to see Emotiva's metrics regarding their top end products, especially those requieing pallettes for shipping, because that channel seems like a hassle.
We can't exclude trickle down which often delivers the fidelity of formerly top line products in mid line items.
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Post by teaman on Sept 21, 2016 0:40:24 GMT -5
I didn't even want to venture into this one. I have already speculated with my thoughts in numerous threads in recent months and personally I cannot understand what the sales philosophy even is anymore. As in other threads Dan will jump down my throat to tell me how wrong I am but here goes.
Bringing production to the US is a huge cost. Not only are production costs higher here than in China but our healthcare costs which employers of 50 or more provide is astronomical.
Bringing in brick and mortar retailers may benefit the company with a place where potential audio shoppers can finally hear the Emotiva equipment before investing in it. Even with a 30 day return policy when a buyer knows he is on the hook for $80 in shipping costs or more for an amp costing $900 it kind of deters people from making that jump. I know it deterred me from buying and trying out the XPR-1's when they were available. Contrary to Dan telling me it is so, I cannot imagine a profit margin not taking a hit when introducing a middle man into the mix.
Research and development costs are extremely high and time consuming. Being a smaller company with limited resources it is hard to imagine the stress involved in bringing new gear to market. Not only do you have to remain cutting edge but also competitively priced. Being a smaller company means less people ding R&D at any given time. Big companies like D&M and the like most likely have ten times the resources and ten times the R&D committed to introducing new gear. If you cannot introduce gear to market quickly enough you get left behind. Technology is growing by leaps and bounds and if you take too long, you are introducing new gear that is practically obsolete.
Emotiva used the blade amps before in prior generations and went away from it. They stated it was a choice for the betterment of the product and the value of it at the time. Now they are abandoning toroidal transformers for blade amps. I am left kind of confused by this move. Only thing I can think is that this style is less costly to produce.
Outside of talk of an upcoming $5k processor I don't really see much attention to high end gear, at least for now. I feel like Gary, there is really nothing in the current line up that excites me. To be honest, I will never spend $5k on a processor so that excitement is only going to be realized if I win a lottery. The upper line of speakers that may or may not still be coming has my interest but I know what kind of quality is on the used market and what I like so I am not sure if I would seriously invest in those at this time anyways.
For God's sakes....Axis, stop taking everything so personally. We are all in here and should be able to have opinions on what we like, dislike and what we would want to see....or not. You seriously don't have to go into attack mode because someone else has a difference of opinion...whether it is right or wrong in the end. I know you and Nick have blue lights in your urinals but guys....relax, take a breath and let things play out.
Tim
PS, thanks boom for engaging this discussion. I think it has been on a lot of people's minds.
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Post by Gary Cook on Sept 21, 2016 0:51:39 GMT -5
A couple of simple questions, what's the most recent "high end" product Emotiva has released? How many "not so high end" products has Emotiva released since they released a "high end" product? IMHO "abandoning" is a bit strong, perhaps it's more like "temporarily leaving", the question is how temporary? The XMC-1. It put everyone else to shame. Where have you guys been ? For sure, the XMC-1 is fantastic, but that's not the point, it was released a year and half ago. That's a long, long, long time in processor terms, about their half life, since technology passes them by at around 3 years. Hence the upgrades/updates in the pipeline. Back to the question at hand, what have Emotiva done since in releasing "high end" products? Compared to how many "not so high end" products? Cheers Gary |
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Post by Gary Cook on Sept 21, 2016 1:25:26 GMT -5
Having heard a 5.1.2 Atmos/DTS-X system in a listening area similar in size to mine, I'd be quite happy with that capability in a UMC-200 replacement, which I have had for almost 4 years. Straight up I simply don't have the space for 7.1 let alone 9.4.4. Plus I have 2 channels in the XPA-5 that are currently being used for Zone 2 that I could swap to power the overheads. I also have a pair of speakers suitable for ceiling mounting. All I need is a suitable processor and a couple of hours spent wiring.
That's my next system upgrade and I don't think it's unreasonable to expect a replacement would be available after ~4 years, with updated technology. I don't really need a sound quality upgrade, although of course I wouldn't say no.
I know I could go out today and buy a $A499 AVR that is capable of 5.1.2, but the sound quality trade off would be too great. Of course there is the XMC-1, but at $A4,000 plus the upgrade costs, it's just not economical for me.
Cheers
Gary
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Post by wrinklemash on Sept 21, 2016 2:58:06 GMT -5
There are more examples, but you get the idea. It seems that maybe Emotiva wants to be the American Yamaha/Sony/Denon, and move away from the type of products that established the company to start with - True audiophile products at a more reasonable price. This is purely speculation, but I'd be interested in hearing Big Dan elaborate what the goals are and where the company wants to be in five or 10 more years... Now for business purposes, he may be unable / unwilling to do this - It's never a great idea to tip off the competition as to what parts of their market you want to steal from them, but it might be fun for US Loungers to speculate about it. So my question to you, fellow Loungers, is: Is Emotiva changing their direction away from high end audio? Yes or no, but justify your answers. Boomzilla IMO - NO, I don't think they are abandoning the high end at all. The X-series has actually moved upscale and the focus on the 'reference' high-end is on hiatus because Emotiva is in obvious transition. If anything, they have abandoned the upscale middle or much of the "affordable high end" that made many of us feel like we were getting high end products at incredible values (and we were). At present, with only the BasX and upscaled X-series, Emotiva is fairly polarized in product offerings and a lot of us feel slighted because they did not see fit to continue some truly "affordable high end product's" like the XPA-1L, XPA-100, XPA-200, XDA-2, (possibly the Stealth DC-1 DAC) and UMC-200 until they had real replacements. The lack of continuity aggravating. This especially applies to those of us who would have preferred to continue adding to our collection of moderately priced Emotiva amplifiers, etc. I believe Emotiva is in transition - and this is a good thing. Right now, I think they are just in a lull in terms of new product introduction, and I have faith that many things are a foot. Emotiva is growing, changing and re-projecting itself in the market place. In this transition, they have chosen to move some manufacturing to the USA. I believe the move has affected what products they manufacture, and how they manufacture them. Based on a trip to Franklin earlier this year to deliver a product for repair (my box was damaged), I can tell you that they have definitely expanded their physical footprint greatly since the last Emofest.
Hope for Transition into a new Reference product line (Speculation by Tea Leaves with Rose Colored Glasses)About that high-end Reference Line level hiatus....I think Big Dan has been very coy (and restrained) and don't think Emotiva has shown us anything close to the full hand with what they have in the pipeline. For instance, few of us knew about the BasX subs and speakers until LCSeminole showed a picture of sub from his visit several days ago. The 15 inch Airmotiv sub was a late addition too. Also, the picture of the RMC-1 back panel rendering and Dan's comments in the subsequent thread make me think they are developing it to at least the prototype stage. And Emotiva has been eerily silent regarding the balanced double-wide blade amps. My hope is the amps will materialize as the new Reference Series (RPA) Modular amps to accompany the RMC-1. Also, do you remember the the first photo teasing Airmotiv speakers with sleek and sinuous curved cabinets? The Airmotivs that are on the cart now don't look anything like that. I hope those might actually be Airmotiv Reference Speakers.. FYI - I had a conversation with Lonnie about a 2000 or more watt subwoofer at the last Emofest - he volunteered this info. I know this was three years ago, but I know they have looked at some really high end bass. I just hope these designs have matured so we might get some deep bass surprises soon. .I hope this hiatus is a sign things are coming to a head. There have been some surprises before. And imagine the bombshell and buzz Emotiva would create by dropping a comprehensive "halo" line like the above all at once. Free publicity. There was some mention about some digital products as well. I bet earphones are in the pipeline too. |
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Post by The History Kid on Sept 21, 2016 3:17:53 GMT -5
I am not qualified to have much weight in this discussion...
I see Emotiva doing a little bit of appeasing to two prongs of the audio industry: the common folk - that is, my contemporaries that want their iPhone 45GSXTRVCthulhuForPresident to connect wirelessly to their "stereo" where they stream YouTube quality audio, and the audio people that are rallying for American based production. If I was to classify myself as either, it'd be more in the ladder.
The updates in "stuffology" doesn't really bother me. I fight tooth and nail over upgrading gear. I didn't start using a receiver with HDMI on it until 2014 - and that receiver was the Fusion 8100. I balked (and still do sometimes) at the Yamaha gear post Series 50. But, I also know how competitive the audio world can be, and it is a field where technology is constantly advancing. That being said, it surprised me how the HDMI 2.0 rollout was/is being handled on the XMC-1. It was also a bit startling that the XPR line got axed. I also was curious as to why there wasn't a 13.4 (or even 13.2) version of the XMC. On it's release, everyone knew Atmos and DTS:X were coming. It wasn't an if, it wasn't an experiment. It was sure.
I dunno. I'm still perfectly content being in the Ultra series. I don't see me upgrading anything for a very long time. Start to finish, it took me 4 years to go from analog to TOSLINK, and 12 years to go from TOSLINK to HDMI. If it takes me even 6 years to move on from HDMI 1.4, all things that are on the table now are still old for when my update will happen.
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Post by Boomzilla on Sept 21, 2016 4:12:15 GMT -5
Hi guys - First, let me state that I'm NOT attacking Emotiva. What they choose to do with their business model is their option, not mine. They can become a chicken farm if they wish (although I'd be disappointed if they did). And whatever choices they make, I wish them well. Second, let me point out that NONE of us (including me) has any particular corporate insight into what Emotiva is changing (or why) except by what we can observe (retrospectively) from their product choices. Based on observed changes in the product line, I'm merely asking the question that was posited in the initial post. Being a consumer, and if I could have my will, I'd like to see Emotiva produce "reference" stereo products - for example a reference stereo preamp, DAC, etc. But demographics being what they are, I may be in a small enough minority that it isn't feasible for Emotiva to cater to my desires. If that's the case, and based on the latest Emotiva product choices, it may be, then OK. But IMHO, pandering to the entry level consumer at the expense of high performance models IS the equivalent of becoming a chicken farm. Sic transit gloria mundi... (or in translation, "cluck, cluck, squaaaaaaaaaawk!") |
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Post by brubacca on Sept 21, 2016 5:04:02 GMT -5
I agree with the thought that they are letting the market dictate the products. The entry level product (Ultra) series seemed to be a gateway product to most. From reading forum threads for several years now people entered Emotiva at a low cost and liked what they heard. Very quickly they moved up to the Mid level (X-Series) and found a significant jump in performance. To me the reference line is easy to dismiss for the average Emotiva customer ( you know the ones who aren't crazy enough to hang out here in the Lounge). They are not audiophiles who want that last ounce of performance. Emotiva is a sales company. Every year they have to keep selling. A Reference Series buyer would probably be more likely to buy that gear and use it for a much longer period of time. How would Emotiva be doing as a company if we all just bought our system (or two) and ran it for a decade without upgrading? Personally I wonder how big the market really is for that next higher price bracket gear ( Reference level). At that point you are catering to that less than 1% of income earers ( or us that even smaller than that). In general when you look at the market afforded by thos top income earners, the people who can afford the "Reference" level of products how likely are they to buy Emotiva? Now I am not trying to insult anyone here. I get the sense from some of you that you may have significant financial resources, but are you the average person at your resource level?
Emotiva is a business and businesses must grow. They have employees to take care of, taxes to pay and the owners have lives to live.
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klinemj
Emo VIPs 
Official Emofest Scribe
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Post by klinemj on Sept 21, 2016 5:17:56 GMT -5
To answer the OP...no. they still have the xmc and are updating it to the latest technology they can, still have the xsp-1 which is a great unit, still have the dc-1 and are looking at updating it, still have the xpa-1 even though it's not gen 3 (yet), took aspects of the xpr series and put them in the xpa-series (which, IMHO made the heavy,hard to ship r-series a mute point), still talk of plans for RMC/XMR (I suspect that readiness of certain parts is the biggest holdup), and they have some great new entry level speakers and are talking step up options from there.
That they have the entry level line? Well, they had one before and discontinued it (ultra series). People here decried they were abandoning the entry level crowd. So, it's just back with a new name. That they are adding Emersa? It seems to be mid-tier and an attempt to expand to all new consumers who don't want giant gear but want great sound. Smart move.
Mark
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Post by vneal on Sept 21, 2016 7:04:23 GMT -5
The answer I hope is both. Here's hoping Emotiva has a Home Theater line--mid end and high end and a Audio only mid and high end. I swing toward the audio side but know I am the minority (the 25%)
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Post by yves on Sept 21, 2016 8:03:52 GMT -5
Well Boomzilla, Emotiva's slogan is "rethink high -end" so maybe their new vision is a product of the younger generation thinking ipod buds sound great or good enough. Also Speaking with some of my buddies that refuse to become Emo product owners solely because Stereophile doesn't endorse them etc. I think that now having dealer support customers will be able to hear Emo gear head to head with other products and may force more super reviewers to take the company serious. my 2 cents. Stereophile doesn't endorse Emotiva? Which version of Stereophile were those people referring to, and what was it again they have been smoking? www.stereophile.com/content/music-round-51#5Y9aK3D9W1I50QC7.97 |
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Lonnie
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Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain
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Post by Lonnie on Sept 21, 2016 8:08:20 GMT -5
I've heard it argued that Emotiva's move to spending their engineering budget developing entry level products for the masses is indicative of their desire to become a volume manufacturer rather than a high-end one. The failure to replace the XPA-1, Gen. 2 with an equivalent Gen. 3 mono block is one example. Their introduction of the BASX line is another. Their failure to offer fully differential balanced circuitry on the XPA Gen. 3 series is another. Their failure to update the XSP-1, Gen. 2 is another. Their failure to update the Stealth DC-1 is another (although Lonnie says that they ARE working on a replacement here). Their failure to offer a "Reference" surround sound processor is another. Their discontinuation of the XPR amplifier line is another. There are more examples, but you get the idea. It seems that maybe Emotiva wants to be the American Yamaha/Sony/Denon, and move away from the type of products that established the company to start with - True audiophile products at a more reasonable price. This is purely speculation, but I'd be interested in hearing Big Dan elaborate what the goals are and where the company wants to be in five or 10 more years... Now for business purposes, he may be unable / unwilling to do this - It's never a great idea to tip off the competition as to what parts of their market you want to steal from them, but it might be fun for US Loungers to speculate about it. So my question to you, fellow Loungers, is: Is Emotiva changing their direction away from high end audio? Yes or no, but justify your answers. Boomzilla People will always speculate because they don't know what is going on behind the scenes so they make up their own stories to justify their gut feelings. The problem with this is speculation by definition is simply to form a theory without any facts or evidence. The truth though is simply this. A lot of the things listed we have openly said we are working on replacements for and others we haven't openly discussed but to be honest we are working on behind the scenes. I'm just not at liberty to discuss at this point and time (this stems from past experience when we announce things to early on in the process). To better understand who Emotiva is and what we do, I believe a little information is needed. The first thing you should know is most of the high end companies out there consist of 3 or 4 guys, no engineering and no manufacturing. Most of them hire an OEM to do the design and manufacturing for them and they simply move the boxes and answer the phones. For the majority of these high end companies if they were to sell 100pcs of a particular model in a year that would be considered a banner year. I say these things from first hand knowledge because I know the people involved very well and are friends with them. In comparison, we do the vast majority of our engineering and manufacturing in house because we are a technology driven company. To say that we are four to six times the size of most of the high end guys is not an exaggeration. Thus we have considerably more overhead which in tern means we need to move considerably more volume. So its simply a matter of business. To design and build the high end toys (which we know will only move in limited quantities) we need to also build gear that will move in large quantities. But even at that we are still a small company when you look at Sony, Pioneer, Denon/ Marantz. All of which are at least 100 times larger then us. So we have to use our engineering resources wisely and split up the various projects into bite size pieces so that all the projects continue to move forward. While it might take us a little longer to get something out the door the bottom line is its done right and something we all take pride in. So there you go. Are we building gear for the masses, yes. Why, because everyone should have a good system and from a selfish stand point, we need to generate revenue to keep the lights on. Have we abandoned the high end market, absolutely not. For example, the differential mono block module for the Gen 3 amps will be released soon as will a stereo module. There is a new high end pre-amp in the works as well as a new DC-1, XDA and oh yes, lets not forget the reference processor which will be shown for the first time at CES. So let them speculate and spread rumors all they want. The true path will always present itself when the time is right. Lonnie |
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Post by adaboy on Sept 21, 2016 8:13:03 GMT -5
The answer I hope is both. Here's hoping Emotiva has a Home Theater line--mid end and high end and a Audio only mid and high end. I swing toward the audio side but know I am the minority (the 25%) I'm in that list of deplorables I mean (25%) lol |
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Post by adaboy on Sept 21, 2016 8:16:08 GMT -5
Well Boomzilla, Emotiva's slogan is "rethink high -end" so maybe their new vision is a product of the younger generation thinking ipod buds sound great or good enough. Also Speaking with some of my buddies that refuse to become Emo product owners solely because Stereophile doesn't endorse them etc. I think that now having dealer support customers will be able to hear Emo gear head to head with other products and may force more super reviewers to take the company serious. my 2 cents. Stereophile doesn't endorse Emotiva? Which version of Stereophile were those people referring to, and what was it again they have been smoking? www.stereophile.com/content/music-round-51#5Y9aK3D9W1I50QC7.97I am aware of this one and the XMC-1 but other than that most audio magazines don't praise Emo. I used stereophile as an example not a very good one but I think the point was clear. |
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Post by rbk123 on Sept 21, 2016 8:33:55 GMT -5
I see their products as upper mid-fi for the most part; like Adcom and Parasound before Parasound got pricey. BasX would be lower mid-fi lines. All are definitely a big step above the Yamahas/Denons/Marantz's of the world, but a step below the Classe's/Conrad Johnsons/Brystons.
Always good to see Axis go full fetal position and call everyone idiots because he doesn't see them worshiping his god. Good times.
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KeithL
Administrator
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Post by KeithL on Sept 21, 2016 8:47:58 GMT -5
Really........  We do have an XPA Gen3 monoblock in the works....... And several other options there as well...... And, in the mean time, a lot of people who like monoblocks like the XPA-1 Gen2... a LOT... so we're not in any big hurry to phase that out either. Everybody's got their idea of what "high-end" means. And, yes, we would like to continue to sell more than a few products a month. Does making five amplifiers a month, by hand, in your garage, make you "high-end"?.... To me, the word that comes to mind there is "boutique".... We plan to continue to make what we consider to be "affordable high-end products"... And, yes, we are also working to move into the "more affordable high-end market"... We think our BasX line of products sound VERY good for their price.... and even pretty darned good at ANY price.... And the Emersa line will appeal more to people who, let's say, want really good sounding equipment that doesn't clash with the drapes.... The whole idea of being an audiophile is starting to die out.... And part of the reason is that a big divide has developed between "cheap gear" and stuff you need a mortgage to buy.... And, yes, we do intend to do our best to close that gap.... But that doesn't at all mean that we're abandoning the higher end of the range. Some magazines can't seem to find a kind word for anything unless the manufacturer has a high-end advertising budget. And, for that matter, some audiophiles seem to believe that the price tag is the determining factor. We don't believe that "being high-end" requires that we come out with a new version of every product every year (we come out with plenty of new and improved models). And we don't believe that it always means offering every new feature that somebody thinks they want either. We evaluate the alternatives, and roll out new products when we feel we can actually offer useful imrovements - and reasonable prices - and not before. If you can actually find another processor that sounds better than the XMC-1, for less than what my car is worth, let me know and we'll talk about "not having a reference processor". Likewise, the XPR amplifiers were very nice, and sounded very good, but most of our customers seem to find the X-Series amplifiers to be a better fit for their needs. (And, oddly enough, the DC-1 still seems to sound pretty good too.) I've heard it argued that Emotiva's move to spending their engineering budget developing entry level products for the masses is indicative of their desire to become a volume manufacturer rather than a high-end one. The failure to replace the XPA-1, Gen. 2 with an equivalent Gen. 3 mono block is one example. Their introduction of the BASX line is another. Their failure to offer fully differential balanced circuitry on the XPA Gen. 3 series is another. Their failure to update the XSP-1, Gen. 2 is another. Their failure to update the Stealth DC-1 is another (although Lonnie says that they ARE working on a replacement here). Their failure to offer a "Reference" surround sound processor is another. Their discontinuation of the XPR amplifier line is another. There are more examples, but you get the idea. It seems that maybe Emotiva wants to be the American Yamaha/Sony/Denon, and move away from the type of products that established the company to start with - True audiophile products at a more reasonable price. This is purely speculation, but I'd be interested in hearing Big Dan elaborate what the goals are and where the company wants to be in five or 10 more years... Now for business purposes, he may be unable / unwilling to do this - It's never a great idea to tip off the competition as to what parts of their market you want to steal from them, but it might be fun for US Loungers to speculate about it. So my question to you, fellow Loungers, is: Is Emotiva changing their direction away from high end audio? Yes or no, but justify your answers. Boomzilla |
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