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Post by graphic on Sept 23, 2016 14:57:24 GMT -5
LONG time luker, VERY long time audio guy here.
I think HairNick has correctly placed $999 as the tipping point for this product.
I think, as many have noted, it is outgunned in a feature battle with the mainstream. I just put together a small system for my granddaughter's apartment with a $249 Denon receiver which covers most of the same bases as the XMC-1L.
I can live with a unit which is "stuck" at a level below Atmos and DTS/X. Much of my movie collection ranges from the silent era to the 60's and even Dolby Digital is enough for these mostly mono films. The XMC-1L has enough 'modern' touches such as the USB DAC to cover my needs for the near future ( I'm not getting any younger! ).
With it's lack of 'forward looking' features and 'end-of-life' approach, I think it needs some sort of "cherry-on-top" to make it a great value. The excellent sound quality, build quality and warranty I take for granted as an Emotiva product. ( I have an UMC-1 and UMC-200 in use and have been delighted with both of them )
Dan listed Dirac full as a $199 option. I didn't see if Dirac LE was included, or EMO-Q. How about including Dirac Full at the $999 price point? That would certainly set this product apart, wouldn't it?
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Post by monkumonku on Sept 23, 2016 15:15:03 GMT -5
Quick notes: maseline98, We have a mock up with the dial as well. The reason why we have gone with the buttons in this concept is: 1. This is based heavily off the existing Emersa boards so the existing code and front panel is built for buttons instead of a rotary knob 2. We have to redo the encoder for the knob which adds more time and cost 3. The knob also adds an extra illumination ring which will raise cost as well. With the same buttons on the right side, we are using the existing part we are using on the quadrant on the left which will help keep cost low. 4. The volume is controlled usually through a remote so it makes the need of the dial less important since form follows function. Also, no need for a mic input on the front of the unit since Dirac connects to your computer and the files are downloaded to your pre/pro via the network. wrinklemash This would have to be 4 HDMI in 2 HDMI out since that is what the Emersa uses and is already programmed and ready to go...hence keeping the cost down. We think that $999 is the key price point for this product to be successful. There's one easy fix to this issue, have a volume knob on every pre/pro and preamp, simple and done and buttons suck even if you end up not using the front panel that much I as well hate volume buttons, heck while your at it I want a volume knob on the remote as well   |
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Post by Bonzo on Sept 23, 2016 15:22:44 GMT -5
I'm with Garbulky here. A volume knob is ten times nicer than silly cheap buttons. I get the need to keep costs down, but a knob adds perceived value to a device like this, to me anyway, and apparently there are enough of us out there. The remote argument is baseless. Why have any buttons on the front at all then? Just because YOU might not have touched the knob, others use them all the time. A knob is quick and accurate and has good physical feedback. A button feels cheap and finicky. In fact, I bought a volume knob precisely for this reason (my tc electronics) to control volume playback. I could have used my mouse (remote), but the knob is worth it - 10 times what I paid for it. Believe it or not, the lack of knob was one deciding factor in passing over the recent UMC-200. Some of us, really like our knobs (yeah, that sounds funny but I'm being serious); you can pry it out of my cold dead fingers. +1. We agree 100% here. I simply will not buy any controller for my system that doesn't have a big volume knob. I don't care if it's designed and made by some NASA audiophile engineer with golden ears, sounds better than legendary Mark Levinson gear, and only costs $200. No knob, no sale. Deal breaker. |
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Post by Topend on Sept 23, 2016 15:36:09 GMT -5
I can see why many like the volume knob. For me I like the volume knob on the USP-1 as I can see where it is set and quickly adjust it to a level I want by turning to a set position.
On a UMC-1 it is less appealing. The knob just keeps tuning so the position tells me nothing about the volume setting. It also has to be turned by a large amount to get any meaningful change in volume. For this reason I'm just as happy with volume buttons.
Cheers,
Dave.
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Post by copperpipe on Sept 23, 2016 15:39:04 GMT -5
I'm with Garbulky here. A volume knob is ten times nicer than silly cheap buttons. I get the need to keep costs down, but a knob adds perceived value to a device like this, to me anyway, and apparently there are enough of us out there. The remote argument is baseless. Why have any buttons on the front at all then? Just because YOU might not have touched the knob, others use them all the time. A knob is quick and accurate and has good physical feedback. A button feels cheap and finicky. In fact, I bought a volume knob precisely for this reason (my tc electronics) to control volume playback. I could have used my mouse (remote), but the knob is worth it - 10 times what I paid for it. Believe it or not, the lack of knob was one deciding factor in passing over the recent UMC-200. Some of us, really like our knobs (yeah, that sounds funny but I'm being serious); you can pry it out of my cold dead fingers. +1. We agree 100% here. I simply will not buy any controller for my system that doesn't have a big volume knob. I don't care if it's designed and made by some NASA audiophile engineer with golden ears, sounds better than legendary Mark Levinson gear, and only costs $200. No knob, no sale. Deal breaker. Interestingly enough; it appears most people either "don't care", or "strongly prefer knob". Haven't yet heard somebody say "gimme the buttons please"  But of course, a big THANKS! to Big Dan for allowing us to give feedback on all this. |
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Post by Bonzo on Sept 23, 2016 15:43:23 GMT -5
Most sources double up on functionality (netflix/hulu/amazon/etc.) these days so the need for all those sources is less. If someone wants more they could use a splitter or step up to the XMC-1. The splitter / switcher / adapter thing has seemingly become Emotiva's mantra for everything these days. I find it's starting to wear on me a bit, and I'm not buying in. Your answer anymore is if we want / need more, go get ourselves a cheap inexpensive splitter / switcher / adapter and all will be simply marvelous. We will not experience any degradation in sound or video quality what so ever. Really? How can you be so sure? Have you seen all the splitters / switchers / adapters available out there? A lot of them are cheap pieces of crap; Radio Shack junk. Have you guys mulled around ideas that have been presented here before, like perhaps making your own high quality switcher? Give it a trigger that could communicate bidirectionally with your processors and it should work flawlessly. I'm sure there are obstacles, but I think it's an idea worth thinking about. |
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Post by Bonzo on Sept 23, 2016 15:49:06 GMT -5
]Interestingly enough; it appears most people either "don't care", or "strongly prefer knob". Haven't yet heard somebody say "gimme the buttons please" Yeah, I noticed that too. So if they don't care, then just make it how the people do care want it. I understand the cost thing, but I think creimes has the right idea. Maybe make 2 sized knobs, one for 2U and one for larger U's and be done with it. Use them in everything that requires a volume knob. Dunno, but like I said, no knob, no sale. |
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Post by wilburthegoose on Sept 23, 2016 15:54:57 GMT -5
I have (and love) an XMC-1, so I voted "no interest"
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Post by brutiarti on Sept 23, 2016 16:11:39 GMT -5
Maybe a poll about the knob can be useful
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Post by Chuck Elliot on Sept 23, 2016 16:35:12 GMT -5
I too would rather see a volume knob. The cost increase of a rotary encoder is very minimal compared to 2 buttons.
Having dual sub control could be as simple as using the backs in an alternate configuration, but would limit the unit to 5.2 which is ok by me.
If the DAC and pre-amp are of equal caliber to the XMC-1 I'd get one to replace the XSP-1/XDA-2 in my 2 channel system.
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klinemj
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Post by klinemj on Sept 23, 2016 17:00:46 GMT -5
Honestly I prefer the knob. Sometimes our preferences are not necessarily for us specifically, but for our families. In my case my family (Wife and young kids) tolerate this little hobby. For her and them a knob would work better because that is what they are used to. Change can happen, but then I have to hear about it. My family is so used to remotes that I actually think they don't know there are knobs and buttons and such in ANY piece of gear. Seriously...if the remote batteries die, they are dead in the water. Mark |
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Post by Bonzo on Sept 23, 2016 17:03:55 GMT -5
Maybe a poll about the knob can be useful I did the last one, your turn to starter up! |
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Post by adaboy on Sept 23, 2016 17:08:16 GMT -5
Honestly I prefer the knob. Sometimes our preferences are not necessarily for us specifically, but for our families. In my case my family (Wife and young kids) tolerate this little hobby. For her and them a knob would work better because that is what they are used to. Change can happen, but then I have to hear about it. My family is so used to remotes that I actually think they don't know there are knobs and buttons and such in ANY piece of gear. Seriously...if the remote batteries die, they are dead in the water. Mark Same here except for my 2 year old audiophile. He uses the buttons and knobs when daddy mommy's heads are turned. Me personally only use the knobs on my 2ch setups, and that is generally when I am up changing vinyl. So out of the 5 possible volume knob possibilities 1 to 2 get touched. |
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Post by novisnick on Sept 23, 2016 17:13:09 GMT -5
Maybe a poll about the knob can be useful I started to formulate one about 4 hours ago and gave up!  No matter where you start you end up in a hole trying to dig yourself out! at what ptice point do you start? R&R a new board? Will you pay at $XX dollars? More$ Less$ etc,,,,,,,,,,, you wont satisfy everybody! So, ill leave it for somebody else. Or not. |
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Post by brutiarti on Sept 23, 2016 17:17:29 GMT -5
Maybe a poll about the knob can be useful I did the last one, your turn to starter up! ok, please vote |
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Post by Percussionista on Sept 23, 2016 17:44:57 GMT -5
A quick addendum re my HDR-10 requirement. Yes, it has been said (by Emo folks) that you can connect your source component(s) directly to your 4K TV with HDR, but then you have several problems - (1) you can't get the Emo menu on the TV - lots of fun doing initial (or other) setup, (2) If your source component only has one HDMI out, you have to use either the TV's toslink out (too often stereo only) to get audio back to the processor, or some other audio out from the source component, which may not support the full audio spectrum. Bad Bad Bad. Going from source component to TV instead of the processor can only be a stop-gap, short-term, and not too palatable. I was just looking over the official planned board changes for the XMC-1. Neither mention anything about HDR (HDMI 2.0a). "Everybody" who reviews HDR sets says that the big change from HD 1080P is really not the 4K aspect, but the HDR and wider color gamut that is being designed with it. I hope the XMC-1 board changes can be further clarified as to HDMI 2.0a, specifically regarding HDR. The two changes I see give you (1) Full 4K native resolution, (2) Atmos/DTSX. HDR is "paramount" - is it there? I apologize if this has been mentioned already. ... Regarding 4K, the unit must handle HDR (at least HDR-10). I seem to recall that was HDMI 2.0a ?? If this doesn't handle HDR-10, then that is an absolute NOGO for me. I've been waiting patiently on the 4K front, on prices and models, HDR, and it looks like 2017 is going to be my year. (Probably OPPO first ;-)) ... |
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Post by creimes on Sept 23, 2016 20:24:20 GMT -5
There's one easy fix to this issue, have a volume knob on every pre/pro and preamp, simple and done and buttons suck even if you end up not using the front panel that much I as well hate volume buttons, heck while your at it I want a volume knob on the remote as well Ummmmm Rickie that's a button dude....like cmon man we wants knobs!!!! |
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Post by yves on Sept 23, 2016 20:58:17 GMT -5
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Post by rbk123 on Sept 23, 2016 21:24:09 GMT -5
I'd pass. $1k for a non-Atmos processor is too high; resale value will not be good, and drop like a rock once Atmos content is mainstream available. I'd pay in the $5-700 for a non-Atmos processor, so I'd pick something like this up used but not new. That's if it were available right now. Factoring in how long it takes Emo to roll out a processor, when this does become available, Atmos will be far more prevalent than it is now.
This is ignoring UFL or 40% cards, that is. i.e. new buyer off the street.
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LCSeminole
Global Moderator 
Res firma mitescere nescit.
Posts: 20,861
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Post by LCSeminole on Sept 23, 2016 23:02:04 GMT -5
A quick addendum re my HDR-10 requirement. Yes, it has been said (by Emo folks) that you can connect your source component(s) directly to your 4K TV with HDR, but then you have several problems - (1) you can't get the Emo menu on the TV - lots of fun doing initial (or other) setup, (2) If your source component only has one HDMI out, you have to use either the TV's toslink out (too often stereo only) to get audio back to the processor, or some other audio out from the source component, which may not support the full audio spectrum. Bad Bad Bad. Going from source component to TV instead of the processor can only be a stop-gap, short-term, and not too palatable. I was just looking over the official planned board changes for the XMC-1. Neither mention anything about HDR (HDMI 2.0a). "Everybody" who reviews HDR sets says that the big change from HD 1080P is really not the 4K aspect, but the HDR and wider color gamut that is being designed with it. I hope the XMC-1 board changes can be further clarified as to HDMI 2.0a, specifically regarding HDR. The two changes I see give you (1) Full 4K native resolution, (2) Atmos/DTSX. HDR is "paramount" - is it there? I apologize if this has been mentioned already. ... Regarding 4K, the unit must handle HDR (at least HDR-10). I seem to recall that was HDMI 2.0a ?? If this doesn't handle HDR-10, then that is an absolute NOGO for me. I've been waiting patiently on the 4K front, on prices and models, HDR, and it looks like 2017 is going to be my year. (Probably OPPO first ;-)) ... This is a post by KeithL from a few weeks ago which answers your question. Full clarification..... The "current" HDMI update board, which will be available as an upgrade in a few weeks, and which will be included in all new units shipping from now on, has one input and one output which support HDMI 2.0 and HDCP 2.2. This fulfills all the requirements for 4k, including the copy protection, WHICH MEANS THAT THIS BOARD WILL PASS ALL "STANDARD 4k SOURCES" (it will pass the signal from 4k satellite and cable boxes, and from 4k disc players). This board is at the top of the unit, and requires you to remove and replace quite a few screws, and several cables - but doesn't require any soldering. While we PREFER to do the installation here, we will probably allow people to do it themselves if they really want to. This board will NOT support HDR10 (which is part of HDMI 2.0a), and probably won't work with the 4k version of Dolby Vision HDR. There will be ANOTHER HDMI board upgrade around year end 2016 that will upgrade multiple inputs and outputs (probably all of them) to HDMI 2.0a. This future board will support HDMI 2.0a (and, of course, HDCP 2.2), and WILL support HDR10 (HDR10 is part of HDMI 2.0a) and Dolby Vision at 4k. (It may also support HDMI 2.0b - but I'm not prepared to even discuss that yet  .) |
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No matter where you start you end up in a hole trying to dig yourself out!
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