klinemj
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Post by klinemj on Oct 27, 2016 20:07:10 GMT -5
Need some advice from you guys. My little home theater is finally coming to a close and I want to use full range towers in there. I listen to a lot of 2 channel but I am not a critical listener but I like music to be enjoyed like you are in the studio or audience. What frequency range is desired to listen to 2 channel without a sub-woofer? I listen to a broad range of music. Pretty much everything except country and hip hop (AKA Rap Crap). I want to be able to experience the impact of the bass notes that Les Claypool can crank out but I want to hear the amazing strings of Apocalyptica too. Just as a foot note my room is 16' long, 15' wide with a 7-1/2' ceiling. What say you? Frankly, I used to want fronts to handle the full range. But, I learned that letting a sub handle the low end was really the best solution. This frees up SO many choices for the fronts. If I were you, I would look at sub/sat options. Mark |
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Post by Boomzilla on Oct 27, 2016 21:49:06 GMT -5
...Less amplifier power is required for the main loudspeakers with a powered subwoofer handling the lower frequencies. Just one of many benefits of considering this route Bill Hi Bill - In theory, yes. In practice, maybe or maybe not... Why? Because the high-pass filter (where the music is) needs to be VERY ( VERY) high quality to avoid degrading the sound. Most amplifiers with analog bass management just throw in a cheap cap & mutilate the sound that you paid so much to get. Most digital filters are re-converting the analog output of the main DAC and having additional A-D / D-A conversions in the signal path also screws up the sound. So to get around these problems, many (most?) end up running the "main speakers" full-range and then blending in the subs using the crossover & phase dials of the plate amp. In such a setup, the amplifier is still working to produce the full frequency range and you don't save ANYTHING. So in summary - Most high-pass filters degrade the sound, and not using them means that the power amp does NOT supply less power. Or, phrased another way - there's just no free lunch. Boom |
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Post by 405x5 on Oct 28, 2016 11:16:17 GMT -5
...Less amplifier power is required for the main loudspeakers with a powered subwoofer handling the lower frequencies. Just one of many benefits of considering this route Bill Hi Bill - In theory, yes. In practice, maybe or maybe not... Why? Because the high-pass filter (where the music is) needs to be VERY ( VERY) high quality to avoid degrading the sound. Most amplifiers with analog bass management just throw in a cheap cap & mutilate the sound that you paid so much to get. Most digital filters are re-converting the analog output of the main DAC and having additional A-D / D-A conversions in the signal path also screws up the sound. So to get around these problems, many (most?) end up running the "main speakers" full-range and then blending in the subs using the crossover & phase dials of the plate amp. In such a setup, the amplifier is still working to produce the full frequency range and you don't save ANYTHING. So in summary - Most high-pass filters degrade the sound, and not using them means that the power amp does NOT supply less power. Or, phrased another way - there's just no free lunch. Boom Boom, Sorry.....you know I failed to explain what I do to have less power required from the main amp. to those main (and all) speakers in my own rig, at least. It's something that's a really good thing to experiment with and it MAY not work well in some cases, and very well (like mine) in others.......bear in mind also, that the intention was not necessarily to use less power from the main amp. although for myself, that's exactly what happens. All my speakers are set to "SMALL" even though they are large, full range systems....(by the way, I HATE those terms "large" and "small" in this context)....wish they would change the lingo to "wide" or "high" vs. "low".....somethin' like that (lol) Of course, I'm using the XMC-1, so in this case, I don't think we are questioning the quality of the high or low pass filters. The Sunfire Signature amplifier at 400 plus watts a channel has tons of headroom, I run this way because it SOUNDS better with my loudspeaker configuration. Since there is redundancy in the crossovers (the Velodyne has it's own of course) that one is bypassed and rely strictly on the XMC. Additionally, there is the subsonic filter on the sub. that is switchable between either 15 or 35hz. and that's set to 15 for max. output. The high pass on the XMC is at 80hz. for all systems. So I guess my own summary is.......depends on the gear Bill |
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butchgo
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Post by butchgo on Oct 28, 2016 11:22:44 GMT -5
Any reason you don't want to use a subwoofer? I originally started this journey with full range towers but for the last 8 or 9 years I have been running bookshelf speakers and dual subs but I have not been really happy with this set up for some reason for 2 channel. That is why I am thinking I want to go back to full range towers again. |
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Post by 405x5 on Oct 28, 2016 11:27:36 GMT -5
Any reason you don't want to use a subwoofer? I originally started this journey with full range towers but for the last 8 or 9 years I have been running bookshelf speakers and dual subs but I have not been really happy with this set up for some reason for 2 channel. That is why I am thinking I want to go back to full range towers again. Have you tried nixing ONE subwoofer, then experimenting with relocating a single sub. with the pair. You may just be over the top with twin subs. in that scenario Bill |
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Post by bunkman on Oct 28, 2016 12:49:36 GMT -5
I have the Lore v.2 from Eric Alexander. Only difference from the v.2 to the lore is the audax gold tweeter. They go low enough for me without using a subwoofer. I am also using a XMC-1 and XPA-5 in my config. These are the best sounding speakers I have owned. I have a pair of Polk 75ts and they just dont put out any bass. I hope this helps. Only been doing this for 3 years.
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Post by jlafrenz on Oct 28, 2016 13:57:42 GMT -5
Any reason you don't want to use a subwoofer? I originally started this journey with full range towers but for the last 8 or 9 years I have been running bookshelf speakers and dual subs but I have not been really happy with this set up for some reason for 2 channel. That is why I am thinking I want to go back to full range towers again. What is it about this particular setup that you are not pleased with? |
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Post by rbk123 on Oct 28, 2016 14:23:18 GMT -5
I originally started this journey with full range towers but for the last 8 or 9 years I have been running bookshelf speakers and dual subs but I have not been really happy with this set up for some reason for 2 channel. That is why I am thinking I want to go back to full range towers again. Any fellow audiophiles out in your neck of the woods that would bring their towers over for you to test your theory? |
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Post by solarrdadd on Oct 28, 2016 16:48:39 GMT -5
I think another thing to consider is the type of music you listen to and the levels you listen to it at. 2.0 is do-able for sure. I listen to a wide variety of music but, mostly jazz, classic rock & classical. I listen to between low to moderate volumes; never loud. I don't like tons of bass either. I think some folks (some of which I know) feel that if it's a violin solo it must push 25hz or it just doesn't sound good!  I do have a 2.0 setup for music (even some once in a while movie watching) and it sounds just perfect to me. what I like about it is that I get everything the speakers can give me with absolutely no change beyond what they can give me in the room they are in. I don't have a sub to dial in, I don't have bass or treble controls, nothing but sound that goes out to 2 speakers. I find that for whatever signature the speakers have (and they all do) I like what I'm hearing and for me, that's the bottom line. my setup for 2.0 is an Oppo 105 (XLR out) to a XSP-1 (RCA out) to a UPA-200 feeding a pair of Vintage Polk Audio SDA-2 speakers. they sit exactly 6" from the back wall which for the amount of bass assist is the sweet spot for me. their 12" passive radiators driven by a 6.5" powered driver can dig deep and it's satisfying to my ears and body (what I physically feel from the low end!  ) I listen to all kinds of formats/resolutions of the music I listen to from MP3 up to 192/24 FLAC, DSD64/128, Blu-Ray Movies/Audio you name it, it all sounds great to me and to my guests. am I missing out on some really low end, I'm sure I am given the limitation of the speakers, but, to tell you the truth, I honestly don't know that I am as everything sounds so good. I don't actually feel I'm missing out on anything! don't have any fancy graphs or scientific listening equipment to verify anything other than my ears. my point in all of this is that yes, you can successfully enjoy 2.0 if you can find speakers that can be driven, safely, to the levels you need both volume and low end for the music types you like to listen to. I also want to add, until I set up a dedicated 2.0 system, I forgot just how good movies can be in 2.0 I mean, it's amazing and the surround effects are still in there and still sound amazing and the phantom center is to die for! I would recommend first determine what in your current setup isn't working for you and go audition whatever it is that is believed to be either the weak link in your existing system or something that you feel you don't currently have. I want to be clear, I'm not in any way against folks who go 2.1 or 2.2 for their music/systems. one must do what one must for ones enjoyment. the heart wants what the heart wants, or, in this case, the ears and body so, get it right for you! no matter what you do, please keep us posted!  |
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butchgo
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Post by butchgo on Oct 28, 2016 17:55:30 GMT -5
I originally started this journey with full range towers but for the last 8 or 9 years I have been running bookshelf speakers and dual subs but I have not been really happy with this set up for some reason for 2 channel. That is why I am thinking I want to go back to full range towers again. What is it about this particular setup that you are not pleased with? Nothing I can put my finger on. Maybe I just have a case of the upgrade bug.... |
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Post by leonski on Oct 29, 2016 2:46:09 GMT -5
First, the 'benefit' of low-cutting the mains at say 80hz are ONLY 15% to 20% of TOTAL power. Not enough to make a real difference except with less-than-capable amps. Cheap filters CAN be problematic, but most subs of maybe 500$ or more each will include a reasonable quality crossover. Your HT component? That might be another story.
Sat/Sub combos DO have an advantage with main speaker placement, but DO get the proper height stand, which is an additional expense. Don't skimp there.
Now, you need to sort of evaluate your ROOM. Do you have the space for a PAIR of subs? Read up on placement and realize that jammed in the front corners is probably NOT the best option.
What speakers have you listened to? What did you like? What couldn't you stand? Are you nutty enough to actually BELIEVE reviews?
And BTW, specs are nearly MeaningLess. In-room response of a speaker always varies from the 'specification'. And Speakers don't have watts. They have SENSITIVITY which is related to, but NOT the same as 'efficiency'.
In no particular order, you need to LISTEN to as many speakers as practical. Take notes. Also, establish some kind of budget. I listened once to the 25000$ PAIR of Sony Speakers. WOW, but not my style. Have you checked with the boss about budget, setup and final disposition?
If you 'can't put your finger on' the problem, you may just have itchy pocketbook syndrome. Don't DO IT until you are back in a rational state.
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Post by 405x5 on Oct 29, 2016 6:33:47 GMT -5
What he said
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Post by yves on Oct 30, 2016 15:02:52 GMT -5
You are not the only person alive who hasn't been impressed with affordable subs for stereo music. The -6 dB cutoff point of my Canton floorstanding speakers is at 31 Hz.
That said, clean and tight bass is more important to stereo music for me than affordable subs that add a lot of harmonic distortion in exchange for being able to go down to somewhere around 20 Hz. If you are adding subs to existing loudspeaker designs, you are essentially re-designing loudspeakers; a loudspeaker is a complex system so it is not always easy (or possible) to get satisfactory results from trying to integrate subs... there's more to sound than frequency response alone, just like there's more to music than bass alone (which is still something that a lot of people seem to want to conveniently ignore).
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Post by leonski on Oct 30, 2016 15:46:03 GMT -5
I can't believe this X*&^)#$@ computer ATE my post. Starting over: First, I don't care what manufacturers ratings are. My panels? Probably go to just under 40hz IN ROOM. I low cut them at 60hz to 80hz and bring the sub in at about 45hz to 50hz. Why the gap? I want it to SUM FLAT thru the crossover. As the sub drops away, the mains 'pick up'. This also minimizes distortion in the range where the human ear/brain is LEAST SENSITIVE to it. Most music with the exception of some MAJOR pipe organ doesn't go much below 30hz or so. www.dak.com/reviews/tutorial_frequencies.cfmYves comments ALSO lead me to want to rant against most 4-way loudspeakers. While it is under the control of a design team, which CAN'T be said of adding a sub to an existing system, you are still up against some major 'walls of physics' in the form of amplitude and phase response problems. A crossover for such a speaker which might be a low pas / 2 BAND PASS and a HI Pass is an absolute NIGHTMARE to design and get right. Also, at the extreme low end of the frequency range? Movies are the biggest users of that range and have the ADVANTAGE of NOBODY knowing what it 'really' sounds like. Anybody can go to a real acoustic concert and hear an OBOE or FLUTE or even the percussion. But NOBODY knows what a UFO Crash sounds like. And while Yves's Cantons might have a -6db point as given, you can ALSO stick 'em in a CORNER and get a lot of that back. That's why I don't care about specs but in this case, IN-ROOM response. |
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Post by vneal on Oct 30, 2016 19:35:41 GMT -5
JL Audio
actually for what it does it does not cost more
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Post by leonski on Oct 30, 2016 21:36:52 GMT -5
In a quick scan of the JL website, the TOP Fathom model rings the bell @7000$
I wonder what the distribution of spending is for a SINGLE sub? Do 10% or more of purchases spend 1200$ or more?
Would somebody who had 1200$ to spend be better served with a PAIR of something else? If no, than at WHAT price
point would someone be bettter off with a pair? 1500$? 2000$?
I think we've had this chat before and my only and main point is that the sub market is VERY competitive in the area
where most of the money is spent. Elite level subs of maybe 2000$ or more darn well better perform flawlessly and
be able to play well with a wide range of speakers. Few people with say, 8000$ invested in their system will have
spent even 20% of the total on a sub or subs.
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Post by yves on Oct 31, 2016 7:00:59 GMT -5
I can't believe this X*&^)#$@ computer ATE my post. Starting over: First, I don't care what manufacturers ratings are. My panels? Probably go to just under 40hz IN ROOM. I low cut them at 60hz to 80hz and bring the sub in at about 45hz to 50hz. Why the gap? I want it to SUM FLAT thru the crossover. As the sub drops away, the mains 'pick up'. This also minimizes distortion in the range where the human ear/brain is LEAST SENSITIVE to it. Most music with the exception of some MAJOR pipe organ doesn't go much below 30hz or so. www.dak.com/reviews/tutorial_frequencies.cfmYves comments ALSO lead me to want to rant against most 4-way loudspeakers. While it is under the control of a design team, which CAN'T be said of adding a sub to an existing system, you are still up against some major 'walls of physics' in the form of amplitude and phase response problems. A crossover for such a speaker which might be a low pas / 2 BAND PASS and a HI Pass is an absolute NIGHTMARE to design and get right. Also, at the extreme low end of the frequency range? Movies are the biggest users of that range and have the ADVANTAGE of NOBODY knowing what it 'really' sounds like. Anybody can go to a real acoustic concert and hear an OBOE or FLUTE or even the percussion. But NOBODY knows what a UFO Crash sounds like. And while Yves's Cantons might have a -6db point as given, you can ALSO stick 'em in a CORNER and get a lot of that back. That's why I don't care about specs but in this case, IN-ROOM response. You make some valid points, and, even though it goes beyond question that the (near) optimum speaker placemnt most often isn't the same as the (also near) optimum subwoofer placement, it can nevertheless be argued that the optimum placement for both the speakers and the subwoofer(s) is still very limited in the sense that the distance between the speakers and the listener must be kept identical to the distance between the subwoofer(s) and the listener. Else, you need a means to compensate for the added delay that results from having placed one or more sound sources at a greater distance from the listening position than the other sound sources. Granted, this isn't necessarily always going to be a problem, and an AVR or processor/preamp will let you adjust the speaker distance in the speaker setup menu's settings, exactly for this purpose. But still, it's something that has to be considered also. To be more specific, if you are going to use a separate DAC in conjunction with the analog preamp inputs on an AVR or processor/preamp, you will be facing the same signal quality degradation that Boomzilla has outlined with regards to introducing additional A-D / D-A conversion steps. That is, except if you can bypass these conversion steps by ensuring your AVR or processor/preamp runs the signal in all-analog "Direct Mode" fashion each time when you listen to your separate DAC. But unfortunately you can't always do that if you need to compensate for the delay. This is because the delay compensation has to be performend in the digital domain, i.e. prior to sending the digital data to the DAC, and, if your separate DAC happens to be only 2-channel as opposed to being multichannel, it means that this separate DAC has no way to output, via separate/individual analog output connections that is, the delayed audio signal(s) in question. So you either need your separate DAC to be a multichannel one or need to make sure that listening distances for your speakers and your subwoofer(s) are all equal to eachother like I said, or else you have to forego the whole idea of wanting to use a separate DAC. The only other option that remains (other than quit listening to stereo music in that which I like to call SERIOUS audiophile quality) is to just get a decent pair of big floorstanding speakers that can sound great for stereo music WITHOUT the need to add subwoofers and WITHOUT the huge amount of harmonic distortion associated with AFFORDABLE subwoofers. To summarize, it's about breaking the bank vs. not. Thankfully, we have audio companies like Emotiva that we can depend on so hope is not all lost. Happy Halloween to everyone! |
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Post by leonski on Oct 31, 2016 13:46:54 GMT -5
Proper DSP will allow for 'time delay', usually measured in MiliSeconds. www.minidsp.comAs you go upline, you add DIRAC and the ability to construct FIR filters. and many other features. FIR Filters have NO phaseshift thru the PassBand. Figure 1 MS per FOOT. Just a round number. I don't have any HT / Processor problems because I STICK with 2.1 My Maggies are considered 'full range' but DO benefit from the bottom octave plus being filled in with a sub. An additional advantage of DSP is that you can go TRUE BIAMP fairly easily and duplicate the 'stock' speaker crossover, which I'd say is a good place to start. And, if it's good enough for Linkwitz (it is!) I'll say it's good enough for me. |
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Post by yves on Oct 31, 2016 15:54:52 GMT -5
Proper DSP will allow for 'time delay', usually measured in MiliSeconds. www.minidsp.comAs you go upline, you add DIRAC and the ability to construct FIR filters. and many other features. FIR Filters have NO phaseshift thru the PassBand. Figure 1 MS per FOOT. Just a round number. I don't have any HT / Processor problems because I STICK with 2.1 My Maggies are considered 'full range' but DO benefit from the bottom octave plus being filled in with a sub. An additional advantage of DSP is that you can go TRUE BIAMP fairly easily and duplicate the 'stock' speaker crossover, which I'd say is a good place to start. And, if it's good enough for Linkwitz (it is!) I'll say it's good enough for me. In my own personal experience, the addition of a miniDSP to deal with the delay just mucks up all the intricate delicacies that a high end separate DAC brings to the table. For reasons that are very similar, I have a pretty critical aversion to Dirac Live as far as stereo music listening is concerned. |
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Post by leonski on Oct 31, 2016 16:48:16 GMT -5
I was just going over the options. I don't know from DIRAC Live, but would love to experiment with FIR filters. Reviews of the 2x8 (2in / 8out) seem to favor it OVER the minimalist 2x4. For me? I'll stick with duplicating my speaker's crossover FIRST. That's gonna get me about 3db amp power additional. You can always use some extra headroom, especially with such low sensitivity speakers. After that? If I have any major problems, I'll see if I can notch them out using one of the Parametric bands of which there are 5 per input and 5 per OUTput. At that point I'll have the calibrated mic, too. Linkwitz Labs uses the MiniDSP product in the Open Baffle ORION Series. From the 2x4HD (new to me) to the 4x10 and OTHERS. Next show I go to, I'll seek those guys out for a good peek behind the curtain. www.linkwitzlab.comMy takeaway is that these guys haven't found DSP to play havoc with the sound, but enables an ease of configuration and flexibility not found with many other systems. Lindwitz ain't cheap, either. Applying a few MS of delay to a sub? I doubt that'll really mess up anything 3 or4 octaves UP. Unless you are crossing the sub at what would be, for ME, far too high a frequency. |
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