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Post by Casey Leedom on Nov 1, 2016 13:41:06 GMT -5
If you don't mind spending a lot, I love my Legacy Focus SE's. They're rated down to 18Hz.
Casey
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Post by yves on Nov 1, 2016 16:33:46 GMT -5
I was just going over the options. I don't know from DIRAC Live, but would love to experiment with FIR filters. Reviews of the 2x8 (2in / 8out) seem to favor it OVER the minimalist 2x4. For me? I'll stick with duplicating my speaker's crossover FIRST. That's gonna get me about 3db amp power additional. You can always use some extra headroom, especially with such low sensitivity speakers. After that? If I have any major problems, I'll see if I can notch them out using one of the Parametric bands of which there are 5 per input and 5 per OUTput. At that point I'll have the calibrated mic, too. Linkwitz Labs uses the MiniDSP product in the Open Baffle ORION Series. From the 2x4HD (new to me) to the 4x10 and OTHERS. Next show I go to, I'll seek those guys out for a good peek behind the curtain. www.linkwitzlab.comMy takeaway is that these guys haven't found DSP to play havoc with the sound, but enables an ease of configuration and flexibility not found with many other systems. Lindwitz ain't cheap, either. Applying a few MS of delay to a sub? I doubt that'll really mess up anything 3 or4 octaves UP. Unless you are crossing the sub at what would be, for ME, far too high a frequency. The additional A-D / D-A conversion steps do really mess it up for me to the point that the whole purpose of having a high end separate DAC for stereo music gets defeated like I said. As for more headroom, my XPA-2 Gen 1 already delivers all the headroom that I ever need for my Canton speakers and then some. Their speaker sensitivity is not particularly high, but still also far from being low sensitivity, albeit they are somewhat difficult to drive, but then again not so difficult to drive that the XPA-2 Gen 1 gets anywhere close to running out of headroom. (Even, if I crank it up to my own personal interpretation of "reference level", i.e. way past the 90 dB danger zone whilst listening to some old hard rock or heavy metal sourced from vinyl records that don't suffer in any way from the Loudness War, I digress). Watch the new Star Trek movie, you'll get the idea of what type of music I like most and how I like it to be played.  |
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Post by leonski on Nov 1, 2016 22:55:38 GMT -5
Stereophile test of the Canton 809 shows 92db sensitivity and a very mild reactance. Not a bad load, at all. No wacky sub-4ohm dips, either. IF the 890 is, as some posts indicate, a close relative of the 809, than no reason whatsoever for a capable 100 a side not to really rock it. Maybe 5 watts continuous with 50 watt peaks? That's 10db crest factor. Even my Parasound A23 which is 200 (or 225 depending on source) will ROCK those Cantons. The Parasounds figure to have about 1.5db 'headroom' against spec. If your 'danger zone' is 90db plus, than counting room gain and multiple speakers and subtracting for seating distance? I don't think I'm far off with my 5 watt guess.
Some people don't like AD / DA stuff. I'm agnostic until I put it to the test. The MiniDSP 2x4HD model (new to me) has a 400mhz 'audio engine' and it supports both IIR and FIR filters. The last? No phase shift in the passband and while complex to figure out and implement, MIGHT be in my long term list. The CPU is an Analogue Devices SHARC 'floating point' device of great bit depth.
I don't know how to make the digital input work, but it is a bi-directional USB type. I think there is a toslink input, too.
Other MiniDSP stuff might work for me, depending on how I want it to work. For example? If i were to build a stereo amp using NCore 400 modules? I would include a MiniDSP 2x4HD and make it a dedicated biamp capable amp. And since it is programable, nearly ANY speaker could be made to work. I'll look at the plugin to see if it'll do 3 way or 4 way duties, so it would be easy to include a SUB WOOFER output on the amp, so the sub could be right next to the main speaker.
I don't know what model Linkwitz uses with the Orion speakers. I'd love you to blind A/B such a setup. I'll join you. I need to run the same test.
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Post by Bonzo on Nov 2, 2016 17:30:38 GMT -5
Some options you might consider are speakers with self-amplified bass. That way, you can adjust the bass range to the preferences of your room and your ears. Makers who offer self-amplified-bass speakers include Golden Ear, Definitive Technology, and others. Another benefit of using self-amplified-bass speakers is that your amplifier has to work far less hard. This is very good advice. Not sure why so many people on this forum don't show this option much love, but it's a great option. For every downside excuse someone might come up with, there is an upside reality to self powered speakers. This advice should not be ignored. |
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Post by yves on Nov 3, 2016 1:24:22 GMT -5
Some options you might consider are speakers with self-amplified bass. That way, you can adjust the bass range to the preferences of your room and your ears. Makers who offer self-amplified-bass speakers include Golden Ear, Definitive Technology, and others. Another benefit of using self-amplified-bass speakers is that your amplifier has to work far less hard. This is very good advice. Not sure why so many people on this forum don't show this option much love, but it's a great option. For every downside excuse someone might come up with, there is an upside reality to self powered speakers. This advice should not be ignored. Not all amplifiers necessarily always sound better (or noticeably) if you make them work far less hard, and you can choose a beefier amplifier instead. Adding a built-in amplifier to a big floorstanding speaker just makes it heavier so this becomes a limiting factor if you want performance to be similar, albeit not all people mind using a forklift to install speakers into their homes or the extra cost involved with palletized packaging, storage, handling and trasportation. |
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Post by vinylguy on Feb 15, 2017 10:58:41 GMT -5
I am in the same boat. I have disassembled my HT and repurposed the mains and sub into a 2ch setup using a Emotiva MiniX.
I want to totally eliminate the hug elephant in the room; Outlaw Lmf-ex. Plus I enjoy simple clean no clutter. Amp, TT, speakers.
I've been looking at Klipsch RF-7, Polk Lsim 705, few different Tekton models, and PhilHarmonic 3.
I want lots of bass. But that is hard to convey over their interwebs. Think late 90s Cerwin Vega 3 ways with the 12" or maybe it was a 15"? Woofer. 😊.
I want that type of output but in a more refined package that is pleasing to the eye.
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Post by Bonzo on Feb 15, 2017 11:45:02 GMT -5
This is very good advice. Not sure why so many people on this forum don't show this option much love, but it's a great option. For every downside excuse someone might come up with, there is an upside reality to self powered speakers. This advice should not be ignored. Not all amplifiers necessarily always sound better (or noticeably) if you make them work far less hard, and you can choose a beefier amplifier instead. Adding a built-in amplifier to a big floorstanding speaker just makes it heavier so this becomes a limiting factor if you want performance to be similar, albeit not all people mind using a forklift to install speakers into their homes or the extra cost involved with palletized packaging, storage, handling and trasportation. I missed this last fall, but it warrants reopening now that this thread is alive. So your argument is weight? Really? Really?? You do realize we are discussing "full range floor standers?" Since when are such speakers not "big" and "heavy" when compared to other limited range speakers? I'm sure there are some (weight wise, Dynaudio comes to mind from my own personal experience), but it's certainly not the "norm." The word "big" is absolutely woven into any "floorstander" speaker's DNA, anyway you slice it. Of course there are variations on "big," but most "floorstanders" would rarely be referred to as "small." In the case of the for-mentioned brands, Golden Ear and Def Tech, your argument is moot. Since I own Def Techs, I'll stick to those here. The Class-D amplifier section of their speakers contributes very little to the overall weight of their speaker offerings. Like many other high quality brands, most of the weight comes from structurally solid cabinets and the amount of cross bracing used inside. Blaming the weight of an added Class-D amp as a worthy reason in "buying" or "not buying" is laughable. One of the keys to the built in amp (and corresponding cross over) is perfect blending and an amp that is perfectly optimized for the particular woofers within. There is no need to hunt down "beefier" (usually expensive and heavy) more cohesive amps that have synergy with the speaker's bass, because what's included is already as good as it gets (or very close to it) with that speaker. They are designed by engineers who know what they are doing much more than 99.9% of the rest of the population. It makes for an almost "plug and play" type audiophile speaker. Working less hard may or may not make a difference as you state, however, it does give people on budgets options. These types of speakers can be driven by less than perfect receivers with ease. I can attest to the fact that my mains sound no different being driven by the 300 wpc XPA-2s than they did when driven by my Denon's own internal amp. Zero sound difference. Being able to be driven this way gave me the opportunity to upgrade my speakers first, then worry about electronics. That's a great option to have. Next. |
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Post by 405x5 on Feb 15, 2017 13:57:23 GMT -5
My own full range floor standers weigh in at 100 lbs. each (and I have a collapsible hand truck for moving them around.)
My goal has always been to play my material at any level desired, without strain on EITHER the loudspeakers or the main amplifier.
To that end, the powered subwoofer takes any excessive load off BOTH the main amp. and the main speakers, which I run on "small" setting even though they are large systems and I use 80hz.
Speaking of no strain, the main amp. is rated 405 watts per channel at 8ohm., and my mains are 6ohm. nominal, as are the rest of the system, so the amp. is just sitting there loafing, while delivering the goods.
My speakers are restored to new condition, but are quite old and irreplaceable.
The subwoofer, compared to my vintage stuff, can be readily replaced, along with its class D plate amp. should it be necessary, since they're still in business.......I did loose the plate amp. once in 2009 I think, and Velodyne took care of me on that.
Important to note, although the topic reads full range floor standers, there are few that by themselves, achieve true full range subwoofer frequencies. Those are EXPENSIVE and usually have their own amps and active crossovers.
Bill
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Post by simpleman68 on Feb 15, 2017 14:37:28 GMT -5
Important to note, although the topic reads full range floor standers, there are few that by themselves, achieve true full range subwoofer frequencies. Those are EXPENSIVE and usually have their own amps and active crossovers. Bill And as I found out may come with DSPs that require a NASA grade E.E. to program....  I do love the fullness of sound though. They are large enough to produce realistic sound in my room. Scott  |
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Post by knucklehead on Feb 15, 2017 15:12:54 GMT -5
I am in the same boat. I have disassembled my HT and repurposed the mains and sub into a 2ch setup using a Emotiva MiniX. I want to totally eliminate the hug elephant in the room; Outlaw Lmf-ex. Plus I enjoy simple clean no clutter. Amp, TT, speakers. I've been looking at Klipsch RF-7, Polk Lsim 705, few different Tekton models, and PhilHarmonic 3. I want lots of bass. But that is hard to convey over their interwebs. Think late 90s Cerwin Vega 3 ways with the 12" or maybe it was a 15"? Woofer. 😊. I want that type of output but in a more refined package that is pleasing to the eye. A big woofer (or two) is usually a good indicator of low end performance. However it may surprise you to know that small woofers can play very satisfying bass. Case in point is my Salk speakers. Being a two way design with a pair of 5" woofers would make you a bit wary of claims of hitting as low as 35db -3db. Salk claim is valid though. I've tested the ST's down to 30hz -6db - not too bad and it's usable bass too. The reason is the quarter wave transmission line cabinet design by Philharmonic's Dennis Murphy, along with his crossover design. I have a pair of Murphy's Affordable Audio Monitors in my bedroom for nighty-night music. They are a 2 way design that hits to 45hz with ease - I no longer use a sub. With the ERM-1's a sub was a requirement. I owned the Emotiva Reference ERT 8.3's prior to having the song towers. Bass response was fairly close to the performance of the ST's - with a pair of 8" drivers they should. But they couldn't reach to 32hz with similar SPL like the ST's do. I owned the ERT's for 6 years. Never got tired of listening to them - just tired of looking at them!The ST's will likely be gone in another 5-6 years. It's what I do! Lounge member jhob also has a pair of ST's. Or did. I PM'ed him on his impressions shortly after he got them. His remarks about the bass response was much like mine when I first heard them - Wow! So don't dismiss small quality woofers being able to play real low. I'm not trying to sell Salk speakers - just saying don't dismiss smaller woofer designs. The ST's use 2 Seas ER15RLY woofers. High quality and excellent sound. Doesn't hurt that Salk chose the Hiquphon OW2 tweeter. It too is quite good. |
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Post by flamethrower1 on Feb 15, 2017 16:43:12 GMT -5
I know where you can get a pair of Mini Statements, they have quite of bit of bottom end  |
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Post by 405x5 on Feb 15, 2017 17:18:40 GMT -5
Important to note, although the topic reads full range floor standers, there are few that by themselves, achieve true full range subwoofer frequencies. Those are EXPENSIVE and usually have their own amps and active crossovers. Bill And as I found out may come with DSPs that require a NASA grade E.E. to program.... I do love the fullness of sound though. They are large enough to produce realistic sound in my room. Scott, The "whisper" is a BEAUTIFUL loudspeaker, though I've never had the opportunity to hear them. The driver arrangement must give quite a blend of tight imaging, yet wide dispersion rolled into one system. Bill |
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Post by pedrocols on Feb 15, 2017 17:46:52 GMT -5
I am in the same boat. I have disassembled my HT and repurposed the mains and sub into a 2ch setup using a Emotiva MiniX. I want to totally eliminate the hug elephant in the room; Outlaw Lmf-ex. Plus I enjoy simple clean no clutter. Amp, TT, speakers. I've been looking at Klipsch RF-7, Polk Lsim 705, few different Tekton models, and PhilHarmonic 3. I want lots of bass. But that is hard to convey over their interwebs. Think late 90s Cerwin Vega 3 ways with the 12" or maybe it was a 15"? Woofer. 😊. I want that type of output but in a more refined package that is pleasing to the eye. A big woofer (or two) is usually a good indicator of low end performance. However it may surprise you to know that small woofers can play very satisfying bass. Case in point is my Salk speakers. Being a two way design with a pair of 5" woofers would make you a bit wary of claims of hitting as low as 35db -3db. Salk claim is valid though. I've tested the ST's down to 30hz -6db - not too bad and it's usable bass too. The reason is the quarter wave transmission line cabinet design by Philharmonic's Dennis Murphy, along with his crossover design. I have a pair of Murphy's Affordable Audio Monitors in my bedroom for nighty-night music. They are a 2 way design that hits to 45hz with ease - I no longer use a sub. With the ERM-1's a sub was a requirement. I owned the Emotiva Reference ERT 8.3's prior to having the song towers. Bass response was fairly close to the performance of the ST's - with a pair of 8" drivers they should. But they couldn't reach to 32hz with similar SPL like the ST's do. I owned the ERT's for 6 years. Never got tired of listening to them - just tired of looking at them!The ST's will likely be gone in another 5-6 years. It's what I do! Lounge member jhob also has a pair of ST's. Or did. I PM'ed him on his impressions shortly after he got them. His remarks about the bass response was much like mine when I first heard them - Wow! So don't dismiss small quality woofers being able to play real low. I'm not trying to sell Salk speakers - just saying don't dismiss smaller woofer designs. The ST's use 2 Seas ER15RLY woofers. High quality and excellent sound. Doesn't hurt that Salk chose the Hiquphon OW2 tweeter. It too is quite good. Don't forget that we humans are just mortals. Speakers not so much...  |
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klinemj
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Official Emofest Scribe
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Post by klinemj on Feb 15, 2017 18:20:54 GMT -5
So your argument is weight? Really? Really?? You do realize we are discussing "full range floor standers?" I have only had 1 time weight factored into a purchase. I bought a Rythmik F25 (which I love by the way, and it is, and I mean this...it is HYUGE!!! And is so so beautiful, and I really mean that...). I knew it would be delivered on a pallet. But, the day it was supposed to arrive, I learned it was going to arrive on a semi! And, they told me they would only be able to meet me at the end of my lane to deliver. That is 350' away from my house. AND...they said the semi driver would need me to lift the pallet off the truck because it was not being delivered with a lift gate. OK, sure...I'll just lift a pallet weighing 200# off the back of a semi and carry it 350'. "Right...." We shifted the delivery date until they could bring it on a liftgate truck. I met the driver at the end of my lane with a tractor and small trailer, we took the box of sub off the pallet at the end of my lane and slid it off the liftgate into my trailer, I drove the tractor around to my lower level entrance, and slid the box down two 2*12's into a double wide door. Then,I opened the box and slid the sub into place on furniture moving pads that Rythmik provided. Luckily, I chose a great spot and the sub has only moved 6" since. Other than that, the only weight I worry about is my own fat... Mark |
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Post by simpleman68 on Feb 15, 2017 19:52:59 GMT -5
And as I found out may come with DSPs that require a NASA grade E.E. to program.... I do love the fullness of sound though. They are large enough to produce realistic sound in my room. Scott, The "whisper" is a BEAUTIFUL loudspeaker, though I've never had the opportunity to hear them. The driver arrangement must give quite a blend of tight imaging, yet wide dispersion rolled into one system. Bill Their design is fairly unique and I'm amazed at how accurate an open air driver configuration can sound. 90 degree off axis response is 0 dB. This and the lack of woofer enclosures helps take a large part of your room out of the equation. They dig down very deep and just fill the air with low notes like you'd hear with live music. Mids are very live without being harsh or fatiguing. They are very responsive to minor changes to the DSP and are some of the most accurate speakers I've ever listened to. That was the only big negative was that it made plenty of my older discs unpleasant to listen to. BUT, stick some big band, jazz, acoustic rock/pop etc on them and they work some ear magic; particularly with a good tube amp like the Cary I'm currently running. Scott |
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Post by bluemeanies on Feb 15, 2017 20:04:04 GMT -5
Love TEKTON speakers although I do not own them.
CAVEAT/I HAVE HEARD THEM.
I do not need nor do I use a subwoofer for 2channel listening, however have 2subs for the home theater events.
So IMO you could say you get what you pay for.
BTW as far graphs are concerned I do not pay attention to them..let your ears do the listening..that's the true market value of what your are paying for and HEARING!...not graphs!
Let's vote....do you buy speakers b/c of graphs and specs OR by a LISTENING AUDITION.
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Post by leonski on Feb 15, 2017 23:26:26 GMT -5
I spoke directly with Tekton owner Eric Alexander before buying my Pendragons. Eric's take on the cap upgrades: Most can't hear any difference. Now keep in mind that this is the owner / designer talking! I spent an additional $50 for the "Clarity Cap" upgrade despite Eric's advice just to avoid being "penny wise & pound foolish." But I wouldn't put an additional $750 for cap upgrades into a $2K pair of speakers against the designer's advice. So Eric says "save your money." Hope this helped - Boom Clarity makes wonderful caps. If you go the the ESA level, they compare favorably with almost any cap out there. I'm not current but when I was noodling my panel crossovers, I saw the MR series was $$$. And yeah, another 750$ in a 2k speaker, and just for crossover caps? How about skipping the crossover altogether and going to some active, line-level solution and biamp? |
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Post by Casey Leedom on Feb 15, 2017 23:31:24 GMT -5
... They dig down very deep and just fill the air with low notes like you'd hear with live music. Mids are very live without being harsh or fatiguing. They are very responsive to minor changes to the DSP and are some of the most accurate speakers I've ever listened to. That was the only big negative was that it made plenty of my older discs unpleasant to listen to. BUT, stick some big band, jazz, acoustic rock/pop etc on them and they work some ear magic; particularly with a good tube amp like the Cary I'm currently running. I had the same experience when I picked up my Legacy Audio Focus SEs last May. Some of my favorite discs didn't sound good because they're very unforgiving of bad recording/mastering. The Good News™ is that I've been able to find some of these remastered which are significantly better than what I had before. But not everything is available remastered. (sigh) Other than that, like you, these are the best speakers I've ever had and I love them. Casey |
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Post by leonski on Feb 15, 2017 23:32:39 GMT -5
...Less amplifier power is required for the main loudspeakers with a powered subwoofer handling the lower frequencies. Just one of many benefits of considering this route Bill Hi Bill - In theory, yes. In practice, maybe or maybe not... Why? Because the high-pass filter (where the music is) needs to be VERY ( VERY) high quality to avoid degrading the sound. Most amplifiers with analog bass management just throw in a cheap cap & mutilate the sound that you paid so much to get. Most digital filters are re-converting the analog output of the main DAC and having additional A-D / D-A conversions in the signal path also screws up the sound. So to get around these problems, many (most?) end up running the "main speakers" full-range and then blending in the subs using the crossover & phase dials of the plate amp. In such a setup, the amplifier is still working to produce the full frequency range and you don't save ANYTHING. So in summary - Most high-pass filters degrade the sound, and not using them means that the power amp does NOT supply less power. Or, phrased another way - there's just no free lunch. Boom I don't run my mains full range since it simply muddies up the entire bass region. And NO I'm not saving more than 5% to 10% (upper limit) of power by so doing. For music, anyway, the 50:50 power point is near enough to 350hz to not matter which means that 80hz and lower probably takes no more than 10% of total power available. I cross much lower than that, however, speaker high pass about 55hz and sub low pass aroun 45hz. This produces 'flat' response thru the pass band. |
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Post by leonski on Feb 15, 2017 23:38:55 GMT -5
OP wants to know low frequency response needed. Well, No answer is possible. Do you listen to Pipe Organ? You'll need 16hz for a few pieces so recorded. Saint Sans Symphony #3 'with organ', for example. Don't need much below 30hz for piano. Bass Guitar is higher yet.
And since the room matters more than a little, rating speakers either in-room or anachoic are both nearly meaningless. My original panels produced a good feel for bass with response giving up below maybe 45hz. Lots of bookshelf and small standmount aren't any better.
Best thing to tell someone in this situation is to go listen and decide what the 'satisfaction' point IS.
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