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Post by lrobertson on Aug 2, 2017 9:53:18 GMT -5
Seems that speaker numbers and layout would have a much greater impact than circuitry for most people's listening experience. Dirac unison would be another larger factor to look at. I've always been under the belief if it sounds good it's good and most things take an a/b comparison often enough to continue to be bothered by a lesser quality. Not saying this reality is for everyone. But it would be great to have all that and the highest end balanced circuitry. The mind is powerful enough that just knowing the circuitry isn't what you want may make you perceive a lesser sound. Blind tests are the best way to prove any systems strengths or weaknesses without bias. They experimented with this with expert wine tasters. White wine with red dye was interpreted as having red wine characteristics as well as having a single wine in varying degrees of expensive looking bottles resulting in a correlated quality effect. I think it's safe to assume an expert taster has the same mental flaws as an expert listener.
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Post by foggy1956 on Aug 2, 2017 10:06:14 GMT -5
Seems that speaker numbers and layout would have a much greater impact than circuitry for most people's listening experience. Dirac unison would be another larger factor to look at. I've always been under the belief if it sounds good it's good and most things take an a/b comparison often enough to continue to be bothered by a lesser quality. Not saying this reality is for everyone. But it would be great to have all that and the highest end balanced circuitry. The mind is powerful enough that just knowing the circuitry isn't what you want may make you perceive a lesser sound. Blind tests are the best way to prove any systems strengths or weaknesses without bias. They experimented with this with expert wine tasters. White wine with red dye was interpreted as having red wine characteristics as well as having a single wine in varying degrees of expensive looking bottles resulting in a correlated quality effect. I think it's safe to assume an expert taster has the same mental flaws as an expert listener. I know I suffer from the so called placebo effect. Every time I make a change I notice another veil has been lifted.😎 |
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Post by lrobertson on Aug 2, 2017 10:24:46 GMT -5
Seems that speaker numbers and layout would have a much greater impact than circuitry for most people's listening experience. Dirac unison would be another larger factor to look at. I've always been under the belief if it sounds good it's good and most things take an a/b comparison often enough to continue to be bothered by a lesser quality. Not saying this reality is for everyone. But it would be great to have all that and the highest end balanced circuitry. The mind is powerful enough that just knowing the circuitry isn't what you want may make you perceive a lesser sound. Blind tests are the best way to prove any systems strengths or weaknesses without bias. They experimented with this with expert wine tasters. White wine with red dye was interpreted as having red wine characteristics as well as having a single wine in varying degrees of expensive looking bottles resulting in a correlated quality effect. I think it's safe to assume an expert taster has the same mental flaws as an expert listener. I know I suffer from the so called placebo effect. Every time I make a change I notice another veil has been lifted.😎 And even if it's true that some of this effect is placebo our perceived reality is the only reality that is important for our listening enjoyment so even a placebo has utility. Placebos can even aid the health and outlook from physical ailments. It doesn't matter how much of anything is perceived or actual as long as the perceived/actual benefits are worth the coin to you. The ratio of perceived vs actual really doesn't matter in the end. It just makes for interesting debates and interactions when perceived realities collide on forum discussions. |
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Post by rbk123 on Aug 2, 2017 10:52:27 GMT -5
I know I suffer from the so called placebo effect. Every time I make a change I notice another veil has been lifted.😎 Don't be so humble - you and I both know the difference is "night and day"....  |
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Post by lrobertson on Aug 2, 2017 10:55:33 GMT -5
I know I suffer from the so called placebo effect. Every time I make a change I notice another veil has been lifted.😎 Don't be so humble - you and I both know the difference is "night and day".... We just need to decide if we prefer night or day for ourselves and the costs associated with our choice. I'm excited to find out for myself. I'm just including a theoretical argument to defend the vast spectrum of debate. |
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Post by Bonzo on Aug 2, 2017 12:16:36 GMT -5
Fact, a full differential balanced circuit design is superior to an unbalanced single ended circuit design in reducing interference from electromagnetic induction. Okay, but let me ask some questions because I'm not an expert here. Does this really matter? What if someone doesn't have any electromagnetic induction interference (what ever that is)? So does it sonically do anything else other than reduce the noise floor? What if the noise floor is already so low you can't hear anything unless you put your ear up next to the speaker? What if you have other things in the room, like a refrigerator or ceiling fan that make their own noise.....would it really make that much difference compared to the noise they make? It has been said here in this thread and many times in the past, that if it isn't balanced all the way through the chain then there isn't any benefit. So call me stupid, but, what multi-channel sources out there are fully balanced? The Oppo 105 isn't. Would this not require the RMC-1 to have 16 XLR INPUTS? Or is the statement of "all the way through the chain" wrong, and anywhere you can have balanced helps some along the way? I'm just trying to understand. I'm certainly not knocking anyone who wants this. If I had a super expensive theater or music room in my home I'd certainly like to obtain the best there is for it. And I believe the RMC-1 is going to be a very nice piece of equipment towards that goal. I already think it's more than I'll need for my system and in my budget, but for those who really want it, I'm really glad it will exist for them. |
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Post by lrobertson on Aug 2, 2017 12:25:12 GMT -5
Fact, a full differential balanced circuit design is superior to an unbalanced single ended circuit design in reducing interference from electromagnetic induction. Okay, but let me ask some questions because I'm not an expert here. Does this really matter? What if someone doesn't have any electromagnetic induction interference (what ever that is)? So does it sonically do anything else other than reduce the noise floor? What if the noise floor is already so low you can't hear anything unless you put your ear up next to the speaker? What if you have other things in the room, like a refrigerator or ceiling fan that make their own noise.....would it really make that much difference compared to the noise they make? It has been said here in this thread and many times in the past, that if it isn't balanced all the way through the chain then there isn't any benefit. So call me stupid, but, what multi-channel sources out there are fully balanced? The Oppo 105 isn't. Would this not require the RMC-1 to have 16 XLR INPUTS? Or is the statement of "all the way through the chain" wrong, and anywhere you can have balanced helps some along the way? I'm just trying to understand. I'm certainly not knocking anyone who wants this. If I had a super expensive theater or music room in my home I'd certainly like to obtain the best there is for it. And I believe the RMC-1 is going to be a very nice piece of equipment towards that goal. I already think it's more than I'll need for my system and in my budget, but for those who really want it, I'm really glad it will exist for them. I thought it always referred to after it hits the DAC. With anything greater than 7.1 we will have to rely on RMC-1's internal DAC. And if I did have all that external noise from other appliances I would be a strong proponent for not paying for those then unnecessary feature sets. I would assume the majority of RMC-1 prospective buyers have dedicated rooms where those appliances would be avoided though. |
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Lsc
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Post by Lsc on Aug 2, 2017 12:59:34 GMT -5
Fact, a full differential balanced circuit design is superior to an unbalanced single ended circuit design in reducing interference from electromagnetic induction. Okay, but let me ask some questions because I'm not an expert here. Does this really matter? What if someone doesn't have any electromagnetic induction interference (what ever that is)? So does it sonically do anything else other than reduce the noise floor? What if the noise floor is already so low you can't hear anything unless you put your ear up next to the speaker? What if you have other things in the room, like a refrigerator or ceiling fan that make their own noise.....would it really make that much difference compared to the noise they make? It has been said here in this thread and many times in the past, that if it isn't balanced all the way through the chain then there isn't any benefit. So call me stupid, but, what multi-channel sources out there are fully balanced? The Oppo 105 isn't. Would this not require the RMC-1 to have 16 XLR INPUTS? Or is the statement of "all the way through the chain" wrong, and anywhere you can have balanced helps some along the way? I'm just trying to understand. I'm certainly not knocking anyone who wants this. If I had a super expensive theater or music room in my home I'd certainly like to obtain the best there is for it. And I believe the RMC-1 is going to be a very nice piece of equipment towards that goal. I already think it's more than I'll need for my system and in my budget, but for those who really want it, I'm really glad it will exist for them. There are lots of factors that's involved in the overall sound, obviously. If someone's room situation isn't setup to take advantage of a superior product then, yes it obviously won't be a benefit. It's like saying why do you need a Porsche when you can hit a Honda in LA's congested roads? Will I notice a difference driving the Porsche 10-20 mph for 45 minute stretches? To most folks the RMC-1 and its superior features and sound quality benefits won't mean much. If you buy a $5000 pre/pro, I hope you don't have $500 speakers for instance. But if you have the room and associated equipment to reap the benefits, then you are looking good. Even if you don't have the room etc., and you want to get the RMC-1, it'll still be an upgrade. |
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Post by Bonzo on Aug 2, 2017 13:08:47 GMT -5
I thought it always referred to after it hits the DAC. With anything greater than 7.1 we will have to rely on RMC-1's internal DAC. And if I did have all that external noise from other appliances I would be a strong proponent for not paying for those then unnecessary feature sets. I would assume the majority of RMC-1 prospective buyers have dedicated rooms where those appliances would be avoided though. Okay, so that makes sense. No one buying this sort of device wants to do ADC before using the Dirac Unison. So as long as the original signal stays digital, it doesn't matter. Oppo > RMC > Dirac > DAC and then the balanced part kicks in. So from this perspective, the RMC would be the analog source. I think I have it now. |
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KeithL
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Post by KeithL on Aug 2, 2017 13:21:58 GMT -5
You're basically correct. In general, there is no benefit whatsoever to having a balanced rather than an unbalanced digital signal. (The whole point of using ones and zeros is that things like noise floor and distortion don't matter at all. There's some point beyond which the noise or distortion can be so bad they cause the numbers to be lost or to fail to arrive correctly but, once you get past that point, it really doesn't matter.) Up until the DAC, it really doesn't matter how those bits get there, or what condition they're in, as long as they're still "legible and correct". You can take the worst most beat-up digital signal and make it pristine and new again..... and it will really be perfect... And you can do that over and over again, and, if you do it correctly, in the end it really will be EXACTLY the same as the original (digital signal). (Unlike analog signals, which are subject to "deterioration", and are virtually impossible to do anything to without introducing some sort of alteration or imperfection.) In audio, the important stuff happens either before or after the digital part of the signal chain. Okay, but let me ask some questions because I'm not an expert here. Does this really matter? What if someone doesn't have any electromagnetic induction interference (what ever that is)? So does it sonically do anything else other than reduce the noise floor? What if the noise floor is already so low you can't hear anything unless you put your ear up next to the speaker? What if you have other things in the room, like a refrigerator or ceiling fan that make their own noise.....would it really make that much difference compared to the noise they make? It has been said here in this thread and many times in the past, that if it isn't balanced all the way through the chain then there isn't any benefit. So call me stupid, but, what multi-channel sources out there are fully balanced? The Oppo 105 isn't. Would this not require the RMC-1 to have 16 XLR INPUTS? Or is the statement of "all the way through the chain" wrong, and anywhere you can have balanced helps some along the way? I'm just trying to understand. I'm certainly not knocking anyone who wants this. If I had a super expensive theater or music room in my home I'd certainly like to obtain the best there is for it. And I believe the RMC-1 is going to be a very nice piece of equipment towards that goal. I already think it's more than I'll need for my system and in my budget, but for those who really want it, I'm really glad it will exist for them. I thought it always referred to after it hits the DAC. With anything greater than 7.1 we will have to rely on RMC-1's internal DAC. And if I did have all that external noise from other appliances I would be a strong proponent for not paying for those then unnecessary feature sets. I would assume the majority of RMC-1 prospective buyers have dedicated rooms where those appliances would be avoided though. |
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Post by rbk123 on Aug 2, 2017 14:30:08 GMT -5
In audio, the important stuff happens either before or after the digital part of the signal chain. Well that really narrows it down. |
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Post by lrobertson on Aug 2, 2017 14:44:52 GMT -5
In audio, the important stuff happens either before or after the digital part of the signal chain. Well that really narrows it down. I might be wrong but I think he is referring to the room correction and any digital upconversion to 3D immersive audio and the layout conversions for native content. All of which are handled digitally. Other than that it shouldn't matter pre DAC unless someone was really set on using an oppo's 2 balanced channel DAC for stereo but the only reason for that is if they thought it was that much better than what the RMC-1 will offer. |
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richb
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Post by richb on Aug 2, 2017 14:54:02 GMT -5
Will there be multi-channel analog inputs on the RMC-1?
If not, they only balanced from then on matters.
- Rich
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Post by lrobertson on Aug 2, 2017 15:17:16 GMT -5
Will there be multi-channel analog inputs on the RMC-1? If not, they only balanced from then on matters. - Rich I surely don't want to pay for those inputs. I would only buy an RMC-1 to go beyond 7.1 which all players are limited to at this point anyways I think and I'm anticipating on the RMC-1 or any comparable product to at least perform on par to the oppo DACs if not outperform. The XMC-1 or something else with 7.1 balanced inputs is the go to if that's what someone were to go towards. I would imagine the RMC-1 is focused on high performance immersive audio over outdated codecs and if the DAC performs who would waste the money on an external DAC that only adds more cost and complexity to the equation as well as innacuracies and degradations. |
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Post by cwt on Aug 5, 2017 1:38:27 GMT -5
Will there be multi-channel analog inputs on the RMC-1? If not, they only balanced from then on matters. - Rich I surely don't want to pay for those inputs. Thankfully the mock ups seen so far don't have multi analog inputs . The only chance looks to be if they develop a slot in card type for one of the 3 expansion slots ; something to ignore  |
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Post by lrobertson on Aug 5, 2017 11:57:50 GMT -5
I surely don't want to pay for those inputs. Thankfully the mock ups seen so far don't have multi analog inputs . The only chance looks to be if they develop a slot in card type for one of the 3 expansion slots ; something to ignore Yeah it seems like the only reason someone would want even two analog inputs and have reason is if they really love the sound of vinyl. I would assume that doesn't include many potential buyers in a 16 channel system but I can easily be wrong there when jumping to this high of quality system. |
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DYohn
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Post by DYohn on Aug 5, 2017 12:03:00 GMT -5
I need analog inputs for my external DACS.
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Post by lrobertson on Aug 5, 2017 12:07:48 GMT -5
I need analog inputs for my external DACS. What DAC's do you plan on running on the RMC if you don't mind me asking? Are you planning on limiting the channels? Wouldn't you have to hear the RMC before knowing if there is something your missing with its internal DAC? |
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DYohn
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Post by DYohn on Aug 5, 2017 12:28:33 GMT -5
No. I use Schiit Yggdrasil DACS for my 2 channel sources. Analog inputs to pre/pro required and balanced preferred. Digital is all via HDMI.
Limiting the channels? Well I currently have a 7.1 setup so no. But I do enjoy 2 channel music there now and then.
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Post by lrobertson on Aug 5, 2017 16:43:14 GMT -5
No. I use Schiit Yggdrasil DACS for my 2 channel sources. Analog inputs to pre/pro required and balanced preferred. Digital is all via HDMI. Limiting the channels? Well I currently have a 7.1 setup so no. But I do enjoy 2 channel music there now and then. So your only concern is 2 channel pass through? You don't want the Dirac or for it to hit an ADC and the RMC's DAC to take away from your DAC's? Is it possible the RMC's DAC can produce as good of sound as yours? Just curious. I'll read up on them. I realize if your into 2 channel it's not like you'd want a completely different listening room than your 16 so I get that. Just curious what you think your gaining avoiding the RMC DAC. Am I correct when I say that a good performing DAC doesn't leave a signature or do you prefer one with a warmer sound/coloring or something else? Edit: I did read about your DAC's. I know why you'd want them in the chain. I'd be interested to hear how they differ from the 2 channel RMC DAC when you get that opportunity if you pull the trigger on it. |
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