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Post by musicfan on Feb 9, 2019 8:04:35 GMT -5
Meh Still hasn’t addressed the broken tone mapping. Cool they are still doing Fw updates but missing the major problems |
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LCSeminole
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Post by LCSeminole on Feb 9, 2019 9:16:36 GMT -5
Meh Still hasn’t addressed the broken tone mapping. Cool they are still doing Fw updates but missing the major problems From what I have read on the AVS forum, it seems that many video enthusiasts have different understandings of what tone mapping actually is. From what I gather, it’s displaying HDR content to a lower dynamic range display(a non capable HDR display) for viewing(thus BT2020 to BT709 ?)? Is this correct? If so, is the tone mapping on the UDP-203/205 working correctly when they send HDR content to a display capable of displaying it? Just trying to get a handle on tone mapping. I think this source/link helped in my understanding of tone mapping. skylum.com/blog/what-is-tone-mapping |
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Post by musicfan on Feb 9, 2019 11:26:19 GMT -5
Meh Still hasn’t addressed the broken tone mapping. Cool they are still doing Fw updates but missing the major problems From what I have read on the AVS forum, it seems that many video enthusiasts have different understandings of what tone mapping actually is. From what I gather, it’s displaying HDR content to a lower dynamic range display(a non capable HDR display) for viewing(thus BT2020 to BT709 ?)? Is this correct? If so, is the tone mapping on the UDP-203/205 working correctly when they send HDR content to a display capable of displaying it? Just trying to get a handle on tone mapping. I think this source/link helped in my understanding of tone mapping. skylum.com/blog/what-is-tone-mappingNo. Tone mapping is still displaying full BT2020 and still full color gamut and HDR. What is does really is removed the HDr “flag” in the metadata so the display that doesn’t have proper nits (most don’t)doesn’t do the tonemapping. Which would usually results in a very dark picture. It would Then tone map using the available nits in the display. to show the best possible picture while still using HDR WCG etc The Oppo does this but the issue is it doesn’t properly tone maps to 2020 color. It’s greens and reds are way undersaturates and is closer to 709 Hope that helps clear it up Some Edit: yes if your display is fully capable of up to 4000 nits the Oppo works just fine. You wouldn’t use that feature. |
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Post by Bonzo on Feb 9, 2019 11:38:59 GMT -5
If you have an older LCD 4k TV, or an OLED, or a projector, or like me an even older 1080p plasma, then its basically a required feature to have in a player. Right now the only player I'd buy is the Panny.
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LCSeminole
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Post by LCSeminole on Feb 9, 2019 12:15:18 GMT -5
Apparently LG has added a tone mapping firmware update to their 7 and 8 series OLEDs so I’m wondering if this will be a future trend in future displays. I’ve not yet turned My C8’s tone mapping on while watching HDR content, so looks like I’ll be comparing between the two soon.
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Post by musicfan on Feb 9, 2019 12:27:20 GMT -5
Apparently LG has added a tone mapping firmware update to their 7 and 8 series OLEDs so I’m wondering if this will be a future trend in future displays. I’ve not yet turned My C8’s tone mapping on while watching HDR content, so looks like I’ll be comparing between the two soon. Yep. All displays have their own tone mapping. That’s the issue. They need to be able to re map based on the nits The new JVC projectors do it on board. As long as they can change automatically depending on the source. Thts the only advantage the panny has right now over onboard TM |
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Post by Bonzo on Feb 9, 2019 12:35:51 GMT -5
Apparently LG has added a tone mapping firmware update to their 7 and 8 series OLEDs so I’m wondering if this will be a future trend in future displays. I’ve not yet turned My C8’s tone mapping on while watching HDR content, so looks like I’ll be comparing between the two soon. Its definitely something that SHOULD absolutely be in every TV, but so far its not. The best place to get things like this matching up perfectly for a particular display is IN the display. The engineers designing the display know best what the displays capabilities are, so in theory, they should best be able to set up a tone mapping feature that runs the display properly for no matter what source comes in. If that were the case, then the Oppo would work just fine, and so would everything else. I have to say I'm a bit frustrated at the industry at large for this issue. How many early 4K HDR TVs have been sold along with 4K Blu-ray players that don't work properly together, all without a peep coming from industry insiders. A real head shaker. (See, it's not just Emotiva that makes me shake my head). 😉 |
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LCSeminole
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Post by LCSeminole on Mar 11, 2019 22:05:05 GMT -5
Just ordered me up an early birthday present to compare to the Oppo UDP-203. Panasonic DP-UB820 |
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Post by fbczar on Mar 11, 2019 23:26:32 GMT -5
Meh Still hasn’t addressed the broken tone mapping. Cool they are still doing Fw updates but missing the major problems From what I have read on the AVS forum, it seems that many video enthusiasts have different understandings of what tone mapping actually is. From what I gather, it’s displaying HDR content to a lower dynamic range display(a non capable HDR display) for viewing(thus BT2020 to BT709 ?)? Is this correct? If so, is the tone mapping on the UDP-203/205 working correctly when they send HDR content to a display capable of displaying it? Just trying to get a handle on tone mapping. I think this source/link helped in my understanding of tone mapping. skylum.com/blog/what-is-tone-mappingLC Try this article on Tone Mapping: www.avforums.com/article/what-is-4k-hdr-tone-mapping.13883Your understanding of tone mapping is not quite correct, but it is can be difficult to figure it out on your own. Please PM me if you would like to discuss. |
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Post by modicen on Mar 12, 2019 17:25:29 GMT -5
Just ordered me up an early birthday present to compare to the Oppo UDP-203. Panasonic DP-UB820I'm very interested in your findings, please keep us posted as I might order one also to play nice with my JVC projector. |
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LCSeminole
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Post by LCSeminole on Mar 19, 2019 20:09:32 GMT -5
Well I've had plenty of time to play and compare the Panasonic DP-UB820 and the Oppo UDP-203. My conclusions are as follows:
1. The Oppo UDP-203 build quality is waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay better, period. I thought since these two players were relatively close in price that the build quality would be close as well. Not so.
2. The Oppo UDP-203 also allows conversion of HDR to Dolby Vision, the Panasonic DP-UB820 does not. They both process Dolby Vision equally well, but for HDR10 I feel the 820 definitely wins. There is a precision, in the presentation of HDR10 discs that the 820 has that 203 doesn't do as well. I'm told what I'm seeing is the tone mapping superiority of the 820, but I will say to my eyes it's not a huge improvement. Thus the edge with HDR10 goes to the 820. They both also offer HDR10+ processing but I don't have a flat panel that offers this as of yet.
3. Because I prefer Dolby Vision processing, and because the 203 converts HDR10 to Dolby Vision and the 820 does not, I'm keeping the 203 in my home theater. The 820's superior HDR10 processing/tone mapping will be paired with my Samsung HDR TV in my bedroom.
4. The 820's built in NetFlix/Prime Video and Hulu apps look every bit as good as my ATV4K and that's saying quite a bit. It also offers Dolby Digital+ for 5.1 content, something that the FireTV 4K models also offers but the ATV4K does not, and yes to my ears Dolby Digital+ has a fuller sound that Dolby Digital.
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Post by modicen on Mar 20, 2019 6:00:52 GMT -5
Well I've had plenty of time to play and compare the Panasonic DP-UB820 and the Oppo UDP-203. My conclusions are as follows: 1. The Oppo UDP-203 build quality is waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay better, period. I thought since these two players were relatively close in price that the build quality would be close as well. Not so. 2. The Oppo UDP-203 also allows conversion of HDR to Dolby Vision, the Panasonic DP-UB820 does not. They both process Dolby Vision equally well, but for HDR10 I feel the 820 definitely wins. There is a precision, in the presentation of HDR10 discs that the 820 has that 203 doesn't do as well. I'm told what I'm seeing is the tone mapping superiority of the 820, but I will say to my eyes it's not a huge improvement. Thus the edge with HDR10 goes to the 820. They both also offer HDR10+ processing but I don't have a flat panel that offers this as of yet. 3. Because I prefer Dolby Vision processing, and because the 203 converts HDR10 to Dolby Vision and the 820 does not, I'm keeping the 203 in my home theater. The 820's superior HDR10 processing/tone mapping will be paired with my Samsung HDR TV in my bedroom. 4. The 820's built in NetFlix/Prime Video and Hulu apps look every bit as good as my ATV4K and that's saying quite a bit. It also offers Dolby Digital+ for 5.1 content, something that the FireTV 4K models also offers but the ATV4K does not, and yes to my ears Dolby Digital+ has a fuller sound that Dolby Digital. Thanks for the review LCS, very helpful in my decision making on which one to get. |
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LCSeminole
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Post by LCSeminole on Jun 1, 2019 20:19:53 GMT -5
Now that I've had my LG OLED65C8 professionally ISF calibrated, I've been comparing the Oppo UDP-203 and Panasonic DP-UB820 on HDR10 4K UHD blurays. Apparently the tone mapping that the LG OLED65C8 performs is every bit as good as the DP-UB820's and I can't see any difference now that the C8 has been calibrated. I asked about the 820 and tone mapping, and my calibrator's(ChadB) response is that his projector owners prefer the Panasonic 820 & 9000 over the 203, and since I have an 820 & 203, I was to make up my own mind if there were any differences. IMO, When it comes to flat panels, especially the latest models, I've come to the conclusion there is more or less no difference. I had also inquired about the 203 forcing Dolby Vision from 4K UHD bluray HDR10 movies which I've been preferring. ChadB's response is that he is not normally a fan of any type of video processing such as this. We tried it with a few 4K UHD blurays that he's very familiar with and while the 203's setting for forcing Dolby Vision from HDR10 looked better defined with more depth, it also introduced a slight green hue to shadow details in darker scenes, so a trade off and preference to the viewer.
Any how, my thoughts post-calibration for my LG OLED65C8 have vastly increased across the board, especially with SDR and Dolby Vision content, and having accurate skin tones makes the picture more life like.
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KeithL
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Post by KeithL on Jun 2, 2019 1:14:47 GMT -5
By its nature, Dolby Vision shifts the color space in different scenes in different ways. Therefore, if you play a DV disc without DV, odds are the colors will sometimes look funny. However, taking a non-DV movie, where all the scenes use the same color space to begin with, and "switching on the DV flag", shouldn't be a problem. Note that, with a true DV disc, the color space changes from scene to scene... while, with "regular HDR" it does not. So, "forcing Dolby Vision", when the content isn't recorded in DV to begin with, really shouldn't make any difference. (because the scenes really are recorded in the same color space to begin with.) I've heard that some fo the special modes in the Panasonic help in situations where things are not being handled properly. However, there's no reason to expect it to make a significant difference or improvement if things are being handled properly to begin with. Now that I've had my LG OLED65C8 professionally ISF calibrated, I've been comparing the Oppo UDP-203 and Panasonic DP-UB820 on HDR10 4K UHD blurays. Apparently the tone mapping that the LG OLED65C8 performs is every bit as good as the DP-UB820's and I can't see any difference now that the C8 has been calibrated. I asked about the 820 and tone mapping, and my calibrator's(ChadB) response is that his projector owners prefer the Panasonic 820 & 9000 over the 203, and since I have an 820 & 203, I was to make up my own mind if there were any differences. IMO, When it comes to flat panels, especially the latest models, I've come to the conclusion there is more or less no difference. I had also inquired about the 203 forcing Dolby Vision from 4K UHD bluray HDR10 movies which I've been preferring. ChadB's response is that he is not normally a fan of any type of video processing such as this. We tried it with a few 4K UHD blurays that he's very familiar with and while the 203's setting for forcing Dolby Vision from HDR10 looked better defined with more depth, it also introduced a slight green hue to shadow details in darker scenes, so a trade off and preference to the viewer. Any how, my thoughts post-calibration for my LG OLED65C8 have vastly increased across the board, especially with SDR and Dolby Vision content, and having accurate skin tones makes the picture more life like. |
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Post by Bonzo on Jun 2, 2019 12:28:15 GMT -5
The advantage of having the Panny is mostly for projectors and older 4k sets where they do not do the tone mapping properly.
As more newer sets come along, one would hope TV manufacturers realize they screwed things up in the beginning and implement the proper tone mapping abilities inside their TV. If this happens, that would make the feature in the Panny unnecessary.
It appears that LG has in fact corrected things. Good to hear.
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Post by Bonzo on Jun 2, 2019 12:31:30 GMT -5
Any how, my thoughts post-calibration for my LG OLED65C8 have vastly increased across the board, especially with SDR and Dolby Vision content, and having accurate skin tones makes the picture more life like. Glad to hear you like it. Exactly, more life like, or more real. Less like a TV and more like looking out a window. |
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LCSeminole
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Post by LCSeminole on Jun 2, 2019 13:31:24 GMT -5
Any how, my thoughts post-calibration for my LG OLED65C8 have vastly increased across the board, especially with SDR and Dolby Vision content, and having accurate skin tones makes the picture more life like. Glad to hear you like it. Exactly, more life like, or more real. Less like a TV and more like looking out a window. Exactly. While my Samsung full-array LED TV looks quite good, yes ChadB calibrated that as well, the OLED just has a more life-like realism that I think LED panels will never have. |
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Post by Bonzo on Jun 2, 2019 13:44:05 GMT -5
Glad to hear you like it. Exactly, more life like, or more real. Less like a TV and more like looking out a window. Exactly. While my Samsung full-array LED TV looks quite good, yes ChadB calibrated that as well, the OLED just has a more life-like realism that I think LED panels will never have. People used to describe the difference between plasma and LCD as plasma being organic, while LCD is artificial. Same holds true for OLED vs newer LCDs. There is just something about each pixel generating its own juice vs a square door letting light through that adds a warmth to the picture. |
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Post by thrillcat on Jun 2, 2019 16:03:58 GMT -5
I was considering the 820 to replace my 203 because I'm a projector owner. So I went over to a friend's place who has the 820 and the same JVC projector (well, had, he's since upgraded). He was demonstrating the HDR Optimizer on the 820, and, quite frankly, he still had to adjust for every disc he demoed. If I'm STILL going to have to tweak settings, I've been able to find 3 different Picture Tone and Dark Level combinations in my JVC that will cover most every title I've thrown at them, so I figured I'd keep the 203 for the incredibly superior build quality over the 820. Then I ended up ripping everything to a Plex server anyway, and replacing the 203 with an older Sony UBX800 for the infrequent time I'll need a disc player. My 203 is on eBay for an exorbitant price, if anyone wants to overpay for it.  Also, related, my friend upgraded to one of the latest JVC projectors, which speaks directly with his Panasonic 820 and adjusts tone mapping on the fly automatically, which is handy. But I just bought my projector in December and I'm not ready to upgrade yet. |
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Post by novisnick on Jun 2, 2019 16:41:04 GMT -5
Glad to hear you like it. Exactly, more life like, or more real. Less like a TV and more like looking out a window. Exactly. While my Samsung full-array LED TV looks quite good, yes ChadB calibrated that as well, the OLED just has a more life-like realism that I think LED panels will never have. Post calibration of my LG 65” C8 my opinion is the same. PQ is just off the charts with realistic colors and skin tones. Multiple black levels in a single frame is incredible. Love my picture window! |
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