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Post by Axis on Aug 18, 2017 21:48:38 GMT -5
I gotta quit reading these new speaker threads. Makes me want to hit the 'buy' button! Sounds like Emotiva have yet another winner on their hands - and I'm not surprised. I owned the ERTs for 5 years and was quite happy with them. I said winner first. Those who think all good speakers cost a lot will never think this. They are the losers.
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Post by DavidR on Aug 18, 2017 22:41:14 GMT -5
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Post by copperpipe on Aug 19, 2017 7:21:08 GMT -5
I could not disagree more. I have heard AND measured the effects of loudspeaker break-in. Loudspeakers are mechanical devices with flexible components, and those components do undergo changes through the first part of their flex life. The best way to break in a woofer or subwoofer is to give it a low frequency signal (~15-20 Hz) of significant drive level, about 10-20 volts RMS, so that the woofer is moving visibly but not making noises (or smells) of distress, and the amplifier is not overheating or clipping, and then let the system play that way for 24 hours. If the noise is excessive, you can connect one speaker out-of-phase. The system should be monitored during this period for signs of distress. After that 24 hours, further changes in suspension compliance are pretty minimal, but subtle improvements will continue to be heard through the midrange and tweeter until the speaker has reached about 100 hours of play time. The folded ribbon takes a chill pill, and the midrange becomes slightly smoother and more liquid. The T2 speakers in particular experience dramatic changes due to woofer suspension break-in; the upper bass (above 100 Hz) is diminished by about 2 dB, and the lower bass (below 100 Hz) rises about 1.5 dB, with the overall system becoming more balanced and better matched to the boundary and pressurization gain profile in most rooms - you will hear more 'deep' bass. So the above process is well worth doing with T2s. You may need to run Dirac or your other room correction process again after the speakers fully break in for the best possible results; I would advise doing so after completing the above woofer break-in process, then again after 100 hours of play. I'm not doing this Rory and human memory does not allow for you to remember differences from the first time new speakers are used and days after use. I have been a meat and potato's mechanic all my life Rory and it is simple science that a butyl rubber speaker surround is going to loosen after short period of flexing. If it sounds better after some use then cool. I have never heard a speaker change after use unless I damaged them in use. Dramatic changes ? Are you going to listen to the same low frequency signal over and over again for two days along with your measuring microphone recording those signals so you can prove it ? You get used to speakers and it takes awhile. I mean a good while. Just like a new beer. You don't need to use "memory". It's a simple matter of placing an "old" pair next to a "new" pair and hearing the difference. I was a skeptic until I bought my 4 pair of atom speakers in stages (2 at a time). Each time, the new speaker sounded weak and harsh compared to the old one which was airy and tight. I believe you are "arguing both sides of the story", but yeah, that's kinda the whole point, and why speakers do sound different after time.
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geebo
Emo VIPs
"Too bad that all the people who know how to run the country are driving taxicabs and cutting hair"
Posts: 24,213
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Post by geebo on Aug 19, 2017 9:34:23 GMT -5
I'm not doing this Rory and human memory does not allow for you to remember differences from the first time new speakers are used and days after use. I have been a meat and potato's mechanic all my life Rory and it is simple science that a butyl rubber speaker surround is going to loosen after short period of flexing. If it sounds better after some use then cool. I have never heard a speaker change after use unless I damaged them in use. Dramatic changes ? Are you going to listen to the same low frequency signal over and over again for two days along with your measuring microphone recording those signals so you can prove it ? You get used to speakers and it takes awhile. I mean a good while. Just like a new beer. You don't need to use "memory". It's a simple matter of placing an "old" pair next to a "new" pair and hearing the difference. I was a skeptic until I bought my 4 pair of atom speakers in stages (2 at a time). Each time, the new speaker sounded weak and harsh compared to the old one which was airy and tight. I believe you are "arguing both sides of the story", but yeah, that's kinda the whole point, and why speakers do sound different after time. And it isn't just the butyl surround. There is the "spider" part of the suspension behind the cone that likely has some initial stiffness and probably more than the surround.
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Post by Axis on Aug 19, 2017 19:28:39 GMT -5
The more I think about it and the different drivers I used in building car systems the more I remember new drivers sounding better. Take a feel of those woofers on your T2's geebo. Those surrounds are thick and just passive they are hard to move. I bet most here have seen the guts of a driver. That big coil of wire glued on that stiff piece of paper material. It's sits in a groove real tight. It is a motor. That spider centers it. These things are built to tight tolerance and yes they can loosen after some mechanical motion. If it did not loosen it would break. I will give it that. I have listen to all kinds of speakers with all kinds of materials and if time made them better like a wine I would know it. Does a speaker driver get better producing sound from factory floor to a 100 hours of use ? Can you ears hear the change or your memory recall the differences ? My experience is I have never heard any speaker get better with time. Just the opposite for me. I watched 'How it's Made' of some AKG headphones a couple weeks ago and before the drives were put in the head shell they did a bench test on them feeding them a range of frequencies with a with measuring device to verify they perform properly. Your ears can not do that and you can not use your ears to measure the change that may occur the very small amount that may happen. Your memory with sound does not allow it. It is cool to think you can. I would not think it would take very long at all for the pleats in the folded Air motion tweeter to relax. Those thick surrounds on those T2 8" woofers would not loosen at all with out feeding them extremely low frequencies over a steady long period as Rory describes. I am not doing that to my T2 woofers and I am not playing electronic generated rap music bass for a month solid to find out if the woofers sound better when worn out. They sound good now and I and every other human can not use there memory to hear the difference. Think about all those blind listening test on similar type and size speakers you have read over the years. It is almost luck to know which one is which. I have read so many times that people hear differences with audio gear and they are either super human or just full of it. I have never heard a speaker get better with time. I have only heard them get worse with time.
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Post by pedrocols on Aug 19, 2017 21:40:56 GMT -5
Sooo where are the pics. If there is not pics it didn't happen!
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Post by Axis on Aug 19, 2017 21:53:55 GMT -5
Sooo where are the pics. If there is not pics it didn't happen! Those angles are not prominent like the pictures on the product page and we revolted from Photo Bucket. They live in my living room. I am looking at them right now and they are cool. They are not Darth Vader looking as many on have described. They are big ! They are all present ! Do not kid yourself that they will not stand out but ugly is not how I would discribe them. I love my T2's. Rory and Emotiva did a excellent job with these ! You will have to pry these from my cold dead hands !
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Post by pallpoul on Aug 19, 2017 22:04:32 GMT -5
You know what Axis, I have to disagree with you on the "sounding better or worse over time" for the T-2's speakers (at least). Stating my own experience with those speakers, and I have not done any measurements, any scientific data stuff, just my ears, the T-2's and my audio gear.
After 3 weeks of listening to them and keeping them on for hours on, I truly can tell a difference, they sound better. !!!!! Now I can not prove that, but at least to my ears they do. I don't know how to explain it, or prove it, but to me it is a fact. they do sound in fact a lot better: Open, dynamic, captivating sound, in a 2.0 system, no matter what I use as source.
So here you go, while YMMV, it is not the same mileage for everyone, and what you hear is not a fact it is only your experience, in your own environment, with your audio stuff and listening room setting.
Cheers bro.
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Post by pedrocols on Aug 19, 2017 23:22:11 GMT -5
Still no pics? Lame, lame, lame...
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Post by Axis on Aug 20, 2017 1:07:27 GMT -5
You know what Axis, I have to disagree with you on the "sounding better or worse over time" for the T-2's speakers (at least). Stating my own experience with those speakers, and I have not done any measurements, any scientific data stuff, just my ears, the T-2's and my audio gear. After 3 weeks of listening to them and keeping them on for hours on, I truly can tell a difference, they sound better. !!!!! Now I can not prove that, but at least to my ears they do. I don't know how to explain it, or prove it, but to me it is a fact. they do sound in fact a lot better: Open, dynamic, captivating sound, in a 2.0 system, no matter what I use as source. So here you go, while YMMV, it is not the same mileage for everyone, and what you hear is not a fact it is only your experience, in your own environment, with your audio stuff and listening room setting. Cheers bro. Then cool. There is no scientific data. Rory does not have to matter even if he made them. I have heard people say I have heard difference all my life. I am not going to take that from someone. Sometimes I can not comprehend that I am posting the things I do and people are reading it. Yes the dynamics of a speaker built by Emotiva in todays world is awesome. I got to hear the great speakers of old times in all there glory. My Dad had Wharfedale's best speakers in my house when I was a kid. A long time ago. I knew the best before most knew anything about quality audio sound. All my post on this matter is just a perspective. I want to tell you guys that you get used to speakers more than they change. I will say it again and again that you get used to speakers and speakers do not change as much as you want to think they do. Take it or leave it. I know what I think. I wanted others to think not only about speakers but turntables and amps and everything audio. Hardly anything has changed about audio in the last 50 years. I would direct you to multiple experiments with different gear over many years with different experiences of different people. Yes top end gear sounds better than lower end gear. I would think DYohn would understand this more than most here. If Rory wants to say that Emotiva speakers sound better with break in then no one is going to listen to me. I am just a post. I am not going to say anything but what I know no matter what anyone says.
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Post by Axis on Aug 20, 2017 1:30:14 GMT -5
Everyone here can say that there is break in for the T2's and I will still say Bull Crap !
I want to say something but it will not. I have built more than a dozen good speakers in my day !
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Post by pedrocols on Aug 20, 2017 2:04:41 GMT -5
Sooo where are the pics?
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Post by Axis on Aug 20, 2017 2:43:49 GMT -5
I feel your pain but until I find another way to post my pictures like I did with Photo Bucket you will just have to imagine.
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Post by pedrocols on Aug 20, 2017 11:28:27 GMT -5
Lame.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 24, 2017 9:03:05 GMT -5
I can see people blowing there woofers now trying to do this. You won't blow your woofers if you keep the signal under 20 volts RMS (or 100 watts @ 4 ohms), which you can measure with an electrical multi-meter. I've done this to just about every speaker I've owned or designed. And the T2s are very robust, so unless the amp is clipping horribly there's virtually no chance of damage, just the desired slight alteration in suspension compliance.
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Post by vneal on Aug 24, 2017 9:13:41 GMT -5
Tweeters go before woofers
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Post by Deleted on Aug 24, 2017 9:21:09 GMT -5
I didn't measure the effects of break-in outdoors on a ground plane, so even though a clear transfer function is in play, with break-in being the only variable, the quality of the data isn't what I consider fit for display. I need to do outdoor ground plane measurements on some other things pretty soon, so I can arrange to test a broken-in pair of T2 speakers against a non-broken-in pair when I do that.
Your tweeters won't have problems during the break-in unless your amplifier is clipping significantly and audibly. And the alternative is to just play the speakers with moderately bass-heavy material for up to 100 hours.
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Post by pedrocols on Aug 24, 2017 11:16:09 GMT -5
What about some pictures.
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Post by beardedalbatross on Aug 24, 2017 11:36:42 GMT -5
From other measurements I've seen, the differences in "break in" are an order of magnitude less than the variance between speakers due to manufacturing tolerances.
A comparison between each individual new tower should show this.
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Post by Axis on Aug 26, 2017 18:23:46 GMT -5
I can see people blowing there woofers now trying to do this. You won't blow your woofers if you keep the signal under 20 volts RMS (or 100 watts @ 4 ohms), which you can measure with an electrical multi-meter. I've done this to just about every speaker I've owned or designed. And the T2s are very robust, so unless the amp is clipping horribly there's virtually no chance of damage, just the desired slight alteration in suspension compliance. You can do this. I would not know where to begin to do this. How would someone go about providing this low frequency signal to a pair of T2's. Where would you obtain it and what method would you send it to your speakers to last this long period of time ?
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