|
|
Post by teaman on Jun 28, 2017 23:51:24 GMT -5
I wonder how your room would sound with a pair of Heresy III's or even the RB-81 II's Boom. The 81's provide a fantastic sound stage and they rock way above their pay grade. Also, the Heresy III is one hell of a speaker that accepts anything you can throw at it. Mate either speaker with a decent sub like you already have and I cannot picture you not being satisfied. Tim I've heard the Heresy 3;s and I believe some sort of Lascala type Klipsch in his room. It was interesting to hear horn speakers but I find myself preferring his current speakers. However thoughs vintage Klipsch look gorgeous! I'm pretty sure Boom said he used to own KHorns at one time. Chuck Eliot was a huge Klipsch fan as well. I just know by looking at Boom's Tektons on that wall I would picture the Heresy III or RB-81 sounding magical...and at a fraction of the price. |
|
|
|
Post by Boomzilla on Jun 29, 2017 10:15:43 GMT -5
Klipsch speakers I've owned & loved include:
Heresy 1 (multiple pairs)
Heresy 2
Heresy 3
Cornwall 1 (multiple pairs)
Cornwall 2
Cornwall 3
La Scala 1 (multiple pairs)
La Scala 2
I've never owned the Belle Klipsches nor the mighty Klipschorns, but I've had the opportunity to hear both in friends' houses.
The current Klipsch lineup might be equally good - but they aren't equally efficient (and are, therefore, not equally low distortion). IMHO, every "Heritage" model in the Klipsch lineup NEEDS subwoofers, unless you're listening to them in a closet-sized space.
My favorites of the ones I've owned are the La Scalas.
|
|
Masif
Minor Hero
Posts: 35 
|
Post by Masif on Jul 1, 2017 14:47:30 GMT -5
I thought I knew my Tekton Pendragons. I was wrong. I recently crossed them over at 70 Hz. (24 dB / octave) to a big subwoofer. The Tektons sound like a completely different pair of speakers. Previously, the Pendragons had a 35 Hz. bump in my room - gone now that the sub is working that range. Previously, the Pendragons sounded as if they had a slight dip in frequency response just below the crossover region. Not audible now. Before, I couldn't get the Pendragons to image well unless they were fairly close together. Now I can spread them as wide as I want & get great imaging. Before, I had to do a lot of jRiver digital signal processing (parametric EQ, etc.) to get the tone I wanted. Now, I've turned all the DSP off - the speakers no longer need it. I didn't think that just adding a sub would do all this (despite Gary Cook 's assurances that it could). Mr. Gary was right. I can't say that this will work for you, but it sure hit the buttons for me. Boomzilla I am nobby with limited/no knowledge on HT subjects. What do you mean by "crossed them over at 70 Hz. (24 dB / octave) "? how do we do that?
I guess I might need a Mic/REW software to play with frequency crossovers, please correct me if i'm wrong and request you to direct me to some online tutorials/articles on this above subject?
Thanks |
|
|
|
Post by Axis on Jul 1, 2017 14:52:15 GMT -5
I thought I knew my Tekton Pendragons. I was wrong. I recently crossed them over at 70 Hz. (24 dB / octave) to a big subwoofer. The Tektons sound like a completely different pair of speakers. Previously, the Pendragons had a 35 Hz. bump in my room - gone now that the sub is working that range. Previously, the Pendragons sounded as if they had a slight dip in frequency response just below the crossover region. Not audible now. Before, I couldn't get the Pendragons to image well unless they were fairly close together. Now I can spread them as wide as I want & get great imaging. Before, I had to do a lot of jRiver digital signal processing (parametric EQ, etc.) to get the tone I wanted. Now, I've turned all the DSP off - the speakers no longer need it. I didn't think that just adding a sub would do all this (despite Gary Cook 's assurances that it could). Mr. Gary was right. I can't say that this will work for you, but it sure hit the buttons for me. Boomzilla I am nobby with limited/no knowledge on HT subjects. What do you mean by "crossed them over at 70 Hz. (24 dB / octave) "? how do we do that?
I guess I might need a Mic/REW software to play with frequency crossovers, please correct me if i'm wrong and request you to direct me to some online tutorials/articles on this above subject?
Thanks I told Boom early on to let his speakers run full range and blend the sub up into them. Without analog bass management like the USP-1 or XSP-1 I have no ideal how he is doing this. Maybe its a digital crossover. Boom, how are you doing this and please tell us why ? |
|
|
|
Post by foggy1956 on Jul 1, 2017 14:57:39 GMT -5
I told Boom early on to let his speakers run full range and blend the sub up into them. Without analog bass management like the USP-1 or XSP-1 I have no ideal how he is doing this. Maybe its a digital crossover. Boom, how are you doing this and please tell us why ? If you run the speakers as large(full range) nothing goes to the sub in 2 channel configuration. |
|
|
|
Post by Axis on Jul 1, 2017 15:03:58 GMT -5
I told Boom early on to let his speakers run full range and blend the sub up into them. Without analog bass management like the USP-1 or XSP-1 I have no ideal how he is doing this. Maybe its a digital crossover. Boom, how are you doing this and please tell us why ? If you run the speakers as large(full range) nothing goes to the sub in 2 channel configuration. I could care less about running speakers as large in a two channel system. That says to me you are using a surround processor for crossover and that is just wrong for a dedicated two channel analog system. Get your head out of your rear folks and live a little. Do not use the preset crossovers in your surround system for analog two channel. Your on your own when you do and don't expect proper results when you do. Hate me !  |
|
|
|
Post by foggy1956 on Jul 1, 2017 15:15:19 GMT -5
If you run the speakers as large(full range) nothing goes to the sub in 2 channel configuration. I could care less about running speakers as large in a two channel system. That says to me you are using a surround processor for crossover and that is just wrong for a dedicated two channel analog system. Get your head out of your rear folks and live a little. Do not use the preset crossovers in your surround system for analog two channel. Your on your own when you do and don't expect proper results when you do. Hate me ! Lovin my xmc-1, could care less how the sound comes out of it, and yes it is a digital crossover😎 |
|
|
|
Post by Axis on Jul 1, 2017 15:16:01 GMT -5
Let me say I would not second guess Gary Cook on Bass. If he help Boomzilla I want to know about it. |
|
|
|
Post by Boomzilla on Jul 1, 2017 15:16:05 GMT -5
I'm currently using an integrated amplifier, the Lyngdorf TDAI-2170, that has digital crossovers available through its software. The crossover slopes offer more or less roll-off per octave.
Some believe that having a broad range of frequencies where both the satellites and subwoofers are operating gives the least noticeable change between the two. "Shallow" or "Gradual" slope crossovers best achieve this.
Others believe that having a very narrow range of "overlap" frequencies gives the least noticeable change. "Steep" or "High-Order" crossovers best achieve this.
Unless you're invested in dogma, there's no simple answer. Many variables affect the success (or lack thereof) of subwoofer crossovers. Some of those variables include:
The accuracy of the crossover components
The smoothness of the satellites' frequency response
The smoothness of the subwoofers' frequency response
The placement of the satellites and subwoofers relative to the listening position
The size of the room
The preferences of the listener
and more...
There are a significant number of books written on crossover design should you wish to educate yourself.
Wikipedia and google are good starting places.
My speakers (Tekton Pendragons) have a specific characteristic that dictates my choice of crossover. When run full-range, the Pendragons exhibit a +5 decibel peak centered at 35 Hz. In my room, this can make the speakers sound "boomy" but only with certain music.
So I selected my crossover point for several reasons:
The Pendragon bump at 35 Hz. needed to be reduced in amplitude sufficiently that it no longer affected the overall frequency response.
The subwoofer is located in a corner (at unequal distances from the two satellite Pendragons) and needed a low-enough crossover frequency and a steep enough slope to prevent the listener from realizing "there's a subwoofer in the corner - I can hear it over there."
The option that I selected (from the digital crossover modes in my integrated amplifier) was a 24 decibel per octave slope centered at 70 Hz.
Using this slope, the +5 db bump in the Pendragon response will be down by 19 decibels relative to the program level. That's enough to make it inaudible. 35 Hz. is one octave away from the 70 Hz crossover center-point, so by 35 Hz, the signal is -24 decibels down from the average satellite level. Therefore (-24) + (+5) decibels give me the -19 decibel difference.
The subwoofer, on the other hand is -24 decibels by the 140 Hz. point, keeping it inaudible from human ears trying to triangulate its position from acoustic clues.
Had I needed to, I could have steepened the crossover slope to 36 decibels per octave, or even 48 dB per octave.
But the current 24 dB / octave slope seems to do the job.
|
|
|
|
Post by Axis on Jul 1, 2017 15:25:25 GMT -5
I could care less about running speakers as large in a two channel system. That says to me you are using a surround processor for crossover and that is just wrong for a dedicated two channel analog system. Get your head out of your rear folks and live a little. Do not use the preset crossovers in your surround system for analog two channel. Your on your own when you do and don't expect proper results when you do. Hate me ! Lovin my xmc-1, could care less how the sound comes out of it, and yes it is a digital crossover😎 Your very lucky to have a XMC-1 and I am sure it sounds awesome. I can't do that right now with my USP-1 system. I would not want too. I play with both HP and LP on my USP-1 and always choose the full rang output for my speakers. There all kinds of speakers and many ways to crossover to subwoofers. If there is a fault in the design of the speakers that you can cancel out by limiting the frequency range of them that says to me that they are not right to begin with. Press on in your Journey. |
|
|
|
Post by Axis on Jul 1, 2017 15:26:48 GMT -5
I'm currently using an integrated amplifier, the Lyngdorf TDAI-2170, that has digital crossovers available through its software. The crossover slopes offer more or less roll-off per octave. Some believe that having a broad range of frequencies where both the satellites and subwoofers are operating gives the least noticeable change between the two. "Shallow" or "Gradual" slope crossovers best achieve this. Others believe that having a very narrow range of "overlap" frequencies gives the least noticeable change. "Steep" or "High-Order" crossovers best achieve this. Unless you're invested in dogma, there's no simple answer. Many variables affect the success (or lack thereof) of subwoofer crossovers. Some of those variables include: The accuracy of the crossover components The smoothness of the satellites' frequency response The smoothness of the subwoofers' frequency response The placement of the satellites and subwoofers relative to the listening position The size of the room The preferences of the listener and more... There are a significant number of books written on crossover design should you wish to educate yourself. Wikipedia and google are good starting places. My speakers (Tekton Pendragons) have a specific characteristic that dictates my choice of crossover. When run full-range, the Pendragons exhibit a +5 decibel peak centered at 35 Hz. In my room, this can make the speakers sound "boomy" but only with certain music. So I selected my crossover point for several reasons: The Pendragon bump at 35 Hz. needed to be reduced in amplitude sufficiently that it no longer affected the overall frequency response. The subwoofer is located in a corner (at unequal distances from the two satellite Pendragons) and needed a low-enough crossover frequency and a steep enough slope to prevent the listener from realizing "there's a subwoofer in the corner - I can hear it over there." The option that I selected (from the digital crossover modes in my integrated amplifier) was a 24 decibel per octave slope centered at 70 Hz. Using this slope, the +5 db bump in the Pendragon response will be down by 19 decibels relative to the program level. That's enough to make it inaudible. 35 Hz. is one octave away from the 70 Hz crossover center-point, so by 35 Hz, the signal is -24 decibels down from the average satellite level. Therefore (-24) + (+5) decibels give me the -19 decibel difference. The subwoofer, on the other hand is -24 decibels by the 140 Hz. point, keeping it inaudible from human ears trying to triangulate its position from acoustic clues. Had I needed to, I could have steepened the crossover slope to 36 decibels per octave, or even 48 dB per octave. But the current 24 dB / octave slope seems to do the job. Digital crossover in the Lyngdorf TDAI-2170. |
|
|
|
Post by foggy1956 on Jul 1, 2017 15:30:43 GMT -5
Lovin my xmc-1, could care less how the sound comes out of it, and yes it is a digital crossover😎 Your very lucky to have a XMC-1 and I am sure it sounds awesome. I can't do that right now with my USP-1 system. I would not want too. I play with both HP and LP on my USP-1 and always choose the full rang output for my speakers. There all kinds of speakers and many ways to crossover to subwoofers. If there is a fault in the design of the speakers that you can cancel out by limiting the frequency range of them that says to me that they are not right to begin with. Press on in your Journey. Your speakers are faultless? |
|
|
|
Post by Axis on Jul 1, 2017 15:43:05 GMT -5
Your very lucky to have a XMC-1 and I am sure it sounds awesome. I can't do that right now with my USP-1 system. I would not want too. I play with both HP and LP on my USP-1 and always choose the full rang output for my speakers. There all kinds of speakers and many ways to crossover to subwoofers. If there is a fault in the design of the speakers that you can cancel out by limiting the frequency range of them that says to me that they are not right to begin with. Press on in your Journey. Your speakers are faultless? If they were not I would have replaced them. It is amazing how good a simple speaker can sound. There Sony speakers ! |
|
|
|
Post by Boomzilla on Jul 2, 2017 6:30:37 GMT -5
One man's "faultless" is another man's "skag," to use language from another comparative pastime. I do envy those for whom "faultless" is obtainable. I, however, am about to reach the point where "faultless" is a goal no longer worth pursuing. I've heard many flavors of "most excellent" but never quite "faultless" or its gemstone equivalent, "flawless." And "most excellent" is not only achievable (often at surprisingly little cost) but also imminently satisfying. And although there is a weak positive correlation between audio cost and performance, there are sufficient outliers in the sample that any firm conclusion is definitely without scientific merit. Phrased alternately - "You DON'T always get what you want." But (with apologies to the Rolling Stones) if you try sometimes, you get what you need! And even if you do hear "the next level" as garbulky did recently in a pair of Thiel 5.1 speakers, there's no guarantee that such a level can be reproduced in your own system. One room's results never exactly translate to another space, even when the equipment is identical... And so "I can't get no satisfaction" may be more literal than one suspects, particularly when applied to audio - unless "faultless" is, in fact, obtainable to you. But even if you find your "faultless," be advised that it may well be a solitary destination. Cheers - Boomzilla  |
|
|
|
Post by brubacca on Jul 2, 2017 6:46:05 GMT -5
So back again... Lore vs Lore Reference vs Uruz vs Seas Pendragon
|
|
|
|
Post by audiophill on Jul 2, 2017 7:01:55 GMT -5
I'm still loving my Tekton Brilliance
|
|
|
|
Post by foggy1956 on Jul 2, 2017 7:34:52 GMT -5
So back again... Lore vs Lore Reference vs Uruz vs Seas Pendragon I own the lores, the lore reference, and the Enzo's. The Enzo's are a large leap above the lores and I am sure the seas pendragons are a step above the Enzo's. |
|
|
|
Post by brubacca on Jul 2, 2017 8:20:23 GMT -5
So back again... Lore vs Lore Reference vs Uruz vs Seas Pendragon I own the lores, the lore reference, and the Enzo's. The Enzo's are a large leap above the lores and I am sure the seas pendragons are a step above the Enzo's. How would you compare Lore vs Lore Ref? Which would be better for Rock N Roll? Jazz? blues? I mostly listen to very sanitary music. Keb Mo, Eric Clapton, Jack Johnson. Sometimes I like to really kick it with Pearl Jam, STP or Metallica. Would either be a better match? I find my existing speakers a bit boring with the harder stuff. |
|
|
|
Post by foggy1956 on Jul 2, 2017 9:34:24 GMT -5
I own the lores, the lore reference, and the Enzo's. The Enzo's are a large leap above the lores and I am sure the seas pendragons are a step above the Enzo's. How would you compare Lore vs Lore Ref? Which would be better for Rock N Roll? Jazz? blues? I mostly listen to very sanitary music. Keb Mo, Eric Clapton, Jack Johnson. Sometimes I like to really kick it with Pearl Jam, STP or Metallica. Would either be a better match? I find my existing speakers a bit boring with the harder stuff. I would not pay extra for the reference, however, if your room is big enough I would highly recommend stepping up to the Enzo's! |
|
|
|
Post by Mr Perez on Jul 7, 2017 5:58:56 GMT -5
Can someone measure the impedance on the double impact 7 tweeter center speaker. All speakers read around 4ohm but center gives me 0 reading. Multimeter does not even move a bit when testing the center. Checked independently the woofers and they measure 4ohm...tweeters measure 2ohm.. but when I try to read from the binding post I get nothing.  |
|
