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Post by Axis on Mar 30, 2017 14:08:26 GMT -5
Here is a trend for floor standing speaker isolation. Not just for your desktop anymore. Is this something you would be interested in ? Is this valid ? These are new isolators for floor standing speakers from IsoAcoustics. www.isoacoustics.com/products/gaia-series/ Here are Aluminous Audio speakers that will show at AXPONA with speaker isolators. www.aluminousaudio.com/  Here is what they say. SPEAKER SPIKES or ISOLATION? Speaker spikes were likely an invention to attempt an improvement on a flawed design, which was and still is light weight cabinets that resonate. As such, we have no idea why so many loudspeakers utilize a spike system of some kind. Our designs utilize cabinets with adequate mass and no audible resonance, which are then MECHANICALLY ISOLATED FROM THE FLOOR. THIS TECHNOLOGY IS NAMED IVCM, for Isolation and Vibration Control Modules. The result of our design along with IVCM translates into a much cleaner sound in the room as energy is not transferred into the floor itself. With spikes and mechanically coupled designs, a great deal of speaker vibrational energy is transferred into the floor causing it to resonate as the floor behaves as a large diaphragm. MECHANICAL ISOLATION provides a far cleaner and defined sonic landscape. |
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Post by Axis on Mar 30, 2017 14:32:05 GMT -5
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Post by wilburthegoose on Mar 30, 2017 14:44:49 GMT -5
Wouldn't a hockey puck do essentially the same thing for about $4?
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Post by monkumonku on Mar 30, 2017 14:47:09 GMT -5
Wouldn't a hockey puck do essentially the same thing for about $4?   |
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Post by Axis on Mar 30, 2017 14:48:37 GMT -5
Wouldn't a hockey puck do essentially the same thing for about $4? No.  The pucks above are not solid like a hockey puck. The are separated by a rubber insert that allows the speaker to float back and forth but only in a forward and backward motion. They are directional. A hockey puck just transfers the vibrations. It does not isolate. Here is a review of the IsoAcoustics SO-L8R155 Speaker Stands. www.audiostream.com/content/isoacoustics-so-l8r155-speaker-stand#overlay-context=#hcYBioGwP1oHYBds.97Note the user reviews below. Here is one from a DIY user. principle of design and a little bit review Submitted by zeroshiki on August 4, 2014 - 11:04am there are 2 principles of design for loudspeaker base. one is speakers coupling(examples: to the floor using spikes, or to solid stand base, etc), and the other is speakers de-coupling(using rubber feet, foams, DIY stuffs, or isoacoustics). how each work and their benefits are studied in depth by many loudspeaker brands houses(one i can remember is an in depth analysis by genesis, you can google it). i used to make my own DIY speaker feet for my bookshelf speakers, placed on the table as a computer audio. i knew about isoacoustics, but couldn't be bothered to give it a try because i thought a DIY would be just as good, and it was, compared to a direct table placement. boy i was wrong. after reading the rave review here, i decided what the heck and to give it a try. if it's a snake oil thing, well, it would still look cool for display purpose. lol. boy oh boy, best decision, ever. lol. 1st off, a little background, back then at first i only placed my loudspeakers plainly on the table, the improvement using a DIY feet underneath it was apparent. better height level with ears resulting in nicer image focus, less boomy bass, better mids, better highs, etc(i'm not good in describing/painting sounds). the isoacoustics on the other hand. brings the improvement to another level compared to my DIY footing(combination of rubber, foam, and felt, procured from hardware store, lol). for one, the speakers image like crazy now, maybe it's partly because the speakers are not the same level to ears now as before(before: just a bit under, now a bit above, around same cm of under/above), but honestly, i don't remember them sounding this good even when i lowered my seating on the old setup(to about the same level now with the isoacoustics). again, i'm not good in describing nuances of sounds etc but i'll try my best to describe the improvements: the highs are now clearer, that's for sure, the mids.. oh the mids.. this is where the most improvement i can hear from, vocals are just beautiful to hear to, crystal. the bass, well, since i use a subwoofer for my setup, the improvement is maybe just subtle. i think it's now better defined etc, but then i think it's just subtle, it's less boomy on the mid/upper bass that's for sure. the best part is the mids where the most apparent change i can tell from instantly from the 1st time turning on music with the speakers on the isoacoustics. from a DIY setup, what i thought was already good before, i didn't think it could be much improved, not like this. other excellent improvements are the soundstage, image, precision etc2.. it was already really good before(i thought it was excellent), now it is really excellent! i am already recommending this little product to my fellow friends, especially those who are using bookshelf speakers. it's a no brainer product. |
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Post by Axis on Mar 30, 2017 15:11:30 GMT -5
The principle is to allow the speaker cabinet to slightly float in sympathy with the movement of the drivers. This allows energy that would be transferred through a solid mechanical connection to a surface to be used in a way that is again sympathetic with the drivers.
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Post by qdtjni on Mar 30, 2017 15:21:04 GMT -5
Is it spelled snake oil?
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Post by Axis on Mar 30, 2017 15:23:19 GMT -5
Ok, end of discussion. This is snake oil. Goodbye.  |
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Post by qdtjni on Mar 30, 2017 15:26:01 GMT -5
BTW, as for the reference to Audiostream, while I do like the writing of Michael Lavrogna, I find it very hard to take a lot of i serious.
His mantra seems to be "If I hear it, it's true" and never ever reflect on whether it could have been just his perception and that it was his mind acting as a bias filter for any reason.
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Post by qdtjni on Mar 30, 2017 15:26:54 GMT -5
Ok, end of discussion. This is snake oil. Goodbye. I was just being a bit proactive but I'm still sceptical. |
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Post by Casey Leedom on Mar 30, 2017 15:27:58 GMT -5
I always thought that you wanted the speakers to be solidly coupled to your floor. There were two benefits as I understood it:
1. If a speaker is allowed to freely "move back and forth" because of the
movement of the speaker cones/air movement (Newton's Third Law), then
that would directly interfere with the job of the speaker to move air
in a coherent fashion in concert with it's input signal. But speakers
are pretty darned massive compared to the cone mass and air force, so
read into that what you may.
2. If a speak induces vibrations in the floor, you want those to be
coherent with the vibrations it's inducing in the air. Allowing the
speaker to shift relative to the floor would go against that. Again,
speakers are so massive I'm not sure I buy this.
In any case, I thought that these were the reasons why Speaker Spikes were popular: they directly couple speakers to the floor and make them a coherent system.
Casey
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Post by Axis on Mar 30, 2017 15:36:19 GMT -5
BTW, as for the reference to Audiostream, while I do like the writing of Michael Lavrogna, I find it very hard to take a lot of i serious. His mantra seems to be "If I hear it, it's true" and never ever reflect on whether it could have been just his perception and that it was his mind acting as a bias filter for any reason. He is not the only one that is saying they work. I can post more positive reviews on there products here than you can imagine. All there products use the same principle to float and isolate your speaker and I own them and know personally that they work. I find it amazing to scroll down there Facebook page and see all the artist and professional recording studios that use them. BEACH BOYS icon Brian Wilson uses them. Pete Townsend uses them in his studio and Dynaudio supplies them with there studio monitors. www.facebook.com/IsoAcoustics/ |
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Post by qdtjni on Mar 30, 2017 15:42:29 GMT -5
All there products use the same principle to float and isolate your speaker and I own them and know personally that they work. They improve what you are hearing, good for you. And thanks for the recommendation (not sarcastlicy meant), you caught my interest! EDIT: They're fairly decently priced for what it is, not like astronomically expensive Ethernet and Power cables and similarly snake oil products. |
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Post by Axis on Mar 30, 2017 15:51:49 GMT -5
I always thought that you wanted the speakers to be solidly coupled to your floor. There were two benefits as I understood it: 1. If a speaker is allowed to freely "move back and forth" because of the movement of the speaker cones/air movement (Newton's Third Law), then that would directly interfere with the job of the speaker to move air in a coherent fashion in concert with it's input signal. But speakers are pretty darned massive compared to the cone mass and air force, so read into that what you may. 2. If a speak induces vibrations in the floor, you want those to be coherent with the vibrations it's inducing in the air. Allowing the speaker to shift relative to the floor would go against that. Again, speakers are so massive I'm not sure I buy this. In any case, I thought that these were the reasons why Speaker Spikes were popular: they directly couple speakers to the floor and make them a coherent system. Casey This is the heart of the discussion. 1. Allowing the speaker cabinet to move or float forward and back as a result of the movement of the drivers as described in Newton's Third Law is not completely understood for myself other than I do hear an improvement. You would think that it would have the effect of somewhat cancelling each other out to some degree. 2. Some surfaces will take those vibrations and make a sound that is not coherent with the vibrations from the speakers. Put a speaker on a surface that is very prone to vibrate and it will turn into a speaker and hum like mad. Make a sound that you do not want to hear. This could be true for a floor also. I guess that would be on how and what the floor is made of. |
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Post by brubacca on Mar 30, 2017 15:56:23 GMT -5
These are interesting looking devices. The sound of the cabinets having some latitude to move concerns me. If the speaker were moving backwards while the cone was moving forward it would be a net reduction in velocity of the cone. I'm not a speaker designer, but wouldn't that make the speaker not perform as expected?
I understand isolating the speaker from the floor/ desk and what have you.
Maybe it's a scale idea. Maybe from a micro view it's a problem, but from a macro view it sounds better.
Just rambling curiously.
$400 for 8 isn't exactly inexpensive.
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Post by monkumonku on Mar 30, 2017 15:56:43 GMT -5
BTW, as for the reference to Audiostream, while I do like the writing of Michael Lavrogna, I find it very hard to take a lot of i serious. His mantra seems to be "If I hear it, it's true" and never ever reflect on whether it could have been just his perception and that it was his mind acting as a bias filter for any reason. He is not the only one that is saying they work. I can post more positive reviews on there products here than you can imagine. You would still say phooey. All there products use the same principle to float and isolate your speaker and I own them and know personally that they work. I find it amazing to scroll down there Facebook page and see all the artist and professional recording studios that use them. BEACH BOYS icon Brian Wilson uses them. Pete Townsend uses them in his studio and Dynaudio supplies them with there studio monitors. www.facebook.com/IsoAcoustics/ That's where the inspiration came from for "Good Vibrations." That's a true alternate fact. (best rock/pop song ever written, by the way - another true alternate fact) |
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Post by Axis on Mar 30, 2017 16:04:52 GMT -5
Like anything you get the right tool for a job and bobs your uncle. If you have a very heavy and inert speaker and the speaker is say on spikes and on a solid surface that is not prone to vibrating you may not need isolation.
The other part for me is the part about allowing your speaker cabinet to float back and forth directionally and how it may effect the coherency of the sound.
Here are Isoacoustics stand measurements in this video about this subject.
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Post by Axis on Mar 30, 2017 16:26:04 GMT -5
These are interesting looking devices. The sound of the cabinets having some latitude to move concerns me. If the speaker were moving backwards while the cone was moving forward it would be a net reduction in velocity of the cone. I'm not a speaker designer, but wouldn't that make the speaker not perform as expected? I understand isolating the speaker from the floor/ desk and what have you. Maybe it's a scale idea. Maybe from a micro view it's a problem, but from a macro view it sounds better. Just rambling curiously. $400 for 8 isn't exactly inexpensive. They do not move where you can see them move. It is on a small scale but it is enough to reduce that movement (vibrations) from being transferred to the bottom part of the stand. It is two stands with rubber pivots between them. I have my speakers on them right now playing and if I put my fingers on the top stand that the speaker is sitting on I feel vibrations. I do not see movement. If I put my fingers on the bottom stand that is separated from the top stand by a upper and lower bushing and rod inside those bushings that are not connected but float, I feel only a very slight vibration. Both the upper and lower stand have thick rubber pucks that the bottom of speaker cabinet sits on and bottom stand contacts surface on my desk. There are sixteen points of contact that are rubber of some kind. I think you are right and this is a scale thing. I am not completely sure about this very minute movement. But it appears to work. As soon as I figure it completely out I will let you know but your speaker is not wobbling around on them. The IsoAcoustics GAIA III 4 pack that support 70 lbs are $200. |
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Post by brubacca on Mar 30, 2017 17:15:00 GMT -5
These are interesting looking devices. The sound of the cabinets having some latitude to move concerns me. If the speaker were moving backwards while the cone was moving forward it would be a net reduction in velocity of the cone. I'm not a speaker designer, but wouldn't that make the speaker not perform as expected? I understand isolating the speaker from the floor/ desk and what have you. Maybe it's a scale idea. Maybe from a micro view it's a problem, but from a macro view it sounds better. Just rambling curiously. $400 for 8 isn't exactly inexpensive. They do not move where you can see them move. It is on a small scale but it is enough to reduce that movement (vibrations) from being transferred to the bottom part of the stand. It is two stands with rubber pivots between them. I have my speakers on them right now playing and if I put my fingers on the top stand that the speaker is sitting on I feel vibrations. I do not see movement. If I put my fingers on the bottom stand that is separated from the top stand by a upper and lower bushing and rod inside those bushings that are not connected but float, I feel only a very slight vibration. Both the upper and lower stand have thick rubber pucks that the bottom of speaker cabinet sits on and bottom stand contacts surface on my desk. There are sixteen points of contact that are rubber of some kind. I think you are right and this is a scale thing. I am not completely sure about this very minute movement. But it appears to work. As soon as I figure it completely out I will let you know but your speaker is not wobbling around on them. The IsoAcoustics GAIA III 4 pack that support 70 lbs are $200. That makes sense. $200 for a 4 pack, but wouldn't you need 2 packs for a pair of speakers? |
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Post by Axis on Mar 30, 2017 17:20:32 GMT -5
They do not move where you can see them move. It is on a small scale but it is enough to reduce that movement (vibrations) from being transferred to the bottom part of the stand. It is two stands with rubber pivots between them. I have my speakers on them right now playing and if I put my fingers on the top stand that the speaker is sitting on I feel vibrations. I do not see movement. If I put my fingers on the bottom stand that is separated from the top stand by a upper and lower bushing and rod inside those bushings that are not connected but float, I feel only a very slight vibration. Both the upper and lower stand have thick rubber pucks that the bottom of speaker cabinet sits on and bottom stand contacts surface on my desk. There are sixteen points of contact that are rubber of some kind. I think you are right and this is a scale thing. I am not completely sure about this very minute movement. But it appears to work. As soon as I figure it completely out I will let you know but your speaker is not wobbling around on them. The IsoAcoustics GAIA III 4 pack that support 70 lbs are $200. That makes sense. $200 for a 4 pack, but wouldn't you need 2 packs for a pair of speakers? Yes $400 for 8 of there smallest isolators is not cheep. I paid $200 for the pair of my IsoAcoustics Aperta stands and now want all my speakers on something like this if it will benefit them like it does for my Airmotivs on my desktop. They may not. I was talking about my IsoAcoustics Aperta stands for my Airmotivs and not the IsoAcoustics GAIA pucks for floor standing speakers. I do not know how the IsoAcoustics GAIA pucks work yet but they work on the same principle with the top part separated from the bottom part that contacts the floor.  |
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The pucks above are not solid like a hockey puck. The are separated by a rubber insert that allows the speaker to float back and forth but only in a forward and backward motion. They are directional. A hockey puck just transfers the vibrations. It does not isolate. 
