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Post by Axis on Apr 4, 2017 18:19:22 GMT -5
Im wondering how responsive the meter lights will be to actual output of the new amps. The XPA-1's IMHO are not an accurate representation of output. They bounce all the wayto max without being pushed that far in my opinion. The XRR-1's are much more accurate I think. Just my two cents. meters on an amp are for sales, not reality. No speaker is whatever impedance the meter is 'calibrated' for and than when you factor in real world speaker impedance and reactance? Your CAT may enjoy the meters. I have had and seen some pretty accurate analog meters that will monitor the output of a audio amplifier. The Dots that Emotiva uses was never intended to be anything other than a reference. Reference is not the same as follow along with accuracy. It helps you keep from frying your speakers if you have the since to understand what it is telling you. You better not be pushing it and hoping the best. You may loose that bet. Just keep it in the green. Recording, then push it a little over the edge. I have been a study of meters since I started working on airplanes at 14 years old. Anyone here a pilot ? I ran eight engines at a time and kept my eye on everything. You learn a knack at telling when a meter is going wild and reading right. |
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Post by novisnick on Apr 4, 2017 19:04:45 GMT -5
Im wondering how responsive the meter lights will be to actual output of the new amps. The XPA-1's IMHO are not an accurate representation of output. They bounce all the wayto max without being pushed that far in my opinion. The XRR-1's are much more accurate I think. Just my two cents. meters on an amp are for sales, not reality. No speaker is whatever impedance the meter is 'calibrated' for and than when you factor in real world speaker impedance and reactance? Your CAT may enjoy the meters.  |
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Post by Axis on Apr 4, 2017 19:16:09 GMT -5
meters on an amp are for sales, not reality. No speaker is whatever impedance the meter is 'calibrated' for and than when you factor in real world speaker impedance and reactance? Your CAT may enjoy the meters. I got these rubber balls with red flashing lights inside of them and my cat loves them. He loves to chase them. |
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Post by Axis on Apr 4, 2017 19:21:14 GMT -5
I wonder if Emotiva will be employing more people to make all the gear they are making in the US ? I wonder if that is the reason the stereo blades are not ready ? You never know why a product is not on market because there are so many reasons against it. It takes a good team effort and all the stars aligned when I try to wrap my head around it. You have to have guts just to be in business. |
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Post by leonski on Apr 4, 2017 21:31:09 GMT -5
meters on an amp are for sales, not reality. No speaker is whatever impedance the meter is 'calibrated' for and than when you factor in real world speaker impedance and reactance? Your CAT may enjoy the meters. I have had and seen some pretty accurate analog meters that will monitor the output of a audio amplifier. The Dots that Emotiva uses was never intended to be anything other than a reference. Reference is not the same as follow along with accuracy. It helps you keep from frying your speakers if you have the since to understand what it is telling you. You better not be pushing it and hoping the best. You may loose that bet. Just keep it in the green. Recording, then push it a little over the edge. I have been a study of meters since I started working on airplanes at 14 years old. Anyone here a pilot ? I ran eight engines at a time and kept my eye on everything. You learn a knack at telling when a meter is going wild and reading right. Meter accuracy will vary as a function of BOTH impedance AND power factor. I'd judge a meter to be nearly useless when used with Electrostats while of perhaps more use with a more benign load, like my Maggies. It is also possible that the meter error might be in 'favor' of the listener and actually indicate more power than is reaching the speaker? The other factor is one of 'ballistics'. Some meters are very fast and show every little rise and fall of whatever they are intended to measure. Other meters maybe calibrated to a standard. For example? I have an Ancient reel-2-reel deck. A Tandberg 3000x. Meters are NAB calibrated for playback. In use, they appeared kind of 'slow'. Here is a link to an article from Elliot Sount Products about meters. He covers mechanical meters, which is not quite the same as LED ladder type, but the concepts will probably transfer over. Comparing VU meters used in recording studios to power output meters of amplifiers might NOT be the smartest thing I've ever done. sound.whsites.net/project55.htmAnd finally, it is Just Possible that the circuitry used in the LED ladder or other form of 'power' display actually introduce some audible aritfacts, and not of the good kind. If I had 'em, I'd shut 'em off if possible. 8 engines at once? Sounds like the engineers station of a B-52. Those meters bear little resemblence to trying to get accurate readings from audio gear. |
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Post by Axis on Apr 4, 2017 21:51:20 GMT -5
I have had and seen some pretty accurate analog meters that will monitor the output of a audio amplifier. The Dots that Emotiva uses was never intended to be anything other than a reference. Reference is not the same as follow along with accuracy. It helps you keep from frying your speakers if you have the since to understand what it is telling you. You better not be pushing it and hoping the best. You may loose that bet. Just keep it in the green. Recording, then push it a little over the edge. I have been a study of meters since I started working on airplanes at 14 years old. Anyone here a pilot ? I ran eight engines at a time and kept my eye on everything. You learn a knack at telling when a meter is going wild and reading right. Meter accuracy will vary as a function of BOTH impedance AND power factor. I'd judge a meter to be nearly useless when used with Electrostats while of perhaps more use with a more benign load, like my Maggies. It is also possible that the meter error might be in 'favor' of the listener and actually indicate more power than is reaching the speaker? The other factor is one of 'ballistics'. Some meters are very fast and show every little rise and fall of whatever they are intended to measure. Other meters maybe calibrated to a standard. For example? I have an Ancient reel-2-reel deck. A Tandberg 3000x. Meters are NAB calibrated for playback. In use, they appeared kind of 'slow'. Here is a link to an article from Elliot Sount Products about meters. He covers mechanical meters, which is not quite the same as LED ladder type, but the concepts will probably transfer over. Comparing VU meters used in recording studios to power output meters of amplifiers might NOT be the smartest thing I've ever done. sound.whsites.net/project55.htmAnd finally, it is Just Possible that the circuitry used in the LED ladder or other form of 'power' display actually introduce some audible aritfacts, and not of the good kind. If I had 'em, I'd shut 'em off if possible. 8 engines at once? Sounds like the engineers station of a B-52. Those meters bear little resemblence to trying to get accurate readings from audio gear. It was a space ship with eight class a amplifiers driving Electrostatic hyper space speakers. It had a sony reel to reel with analog meters that I learned to read by reading about it in a book. When the needle went to eleven you were at full speed. |
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Post by Lonnie on Apr 5, 2017 8:11:58 GMT -5
Do I/We "NEED" anything? Really? In a word, No!  Nor are they analogue meters, which would be so sweet to gaze at. Seriously. But if your to have meters it would be so nice to have an accurate account of whats happening. If youd like to get serious about the topic, I'd really love a digital readout of watts and ohms in real time if for no other reason that it would be distinct and unique. It would be pretty cool to look at as well. Technically I have no idea how it would be achieved or even be useful but it sure would be COOL!  I agree Nick. Good accurate meters would be awesome. What's the history of that ? Who knows about good built in power meters on amps ? From a technical standpoint, measuring the current flow vs. the voltage output to calculate the impedance can be done. But here is the rub. Since all speakers have wildly varying impedances based on the frequency and level of the incoming signal. The meters whether digital or analog would be jumping all over the place so fast that it would make you sick. Thus, all metering on audio gear has a time weighted average circuit in it to slow things down to a point where we can get the gist of what is going on. So to say you want accurate metering sounds really cool in theory, but in real life, its not so much. If you want to get an idea of this, just hook up a scope to the output of an amp and watch the wave form. Things are happening way to fast for us to take it all in and after a very short time, it just becomes noise on the screen. Thats why we have to adjust the time base on a scope so we can look at what is pertinent. Just food for thought. Lonnie |
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Post by Lonnie on Apr 5, 2017 8:23:42 GMT -5
I wonder if Emotiva will be employing more people to make all the gear they are making in the US ? I wonder if that is the reason the stereo blades are not ready ? You never know why a product is not on market because there are so many reasons against it. It takes a good team effort and all the stars aligned when I try to wrap my head around it. You have to have guts just to be in business. The reason they have not been released yet is pretty simple and follows along with any project. 1. start with an idea. 2. work up a starting design. 3. Build an engineering mule for testing. 4. refine the design and work out the bugs. 5. build second mule for testing. 6. If it meets or exceeds the design spec, the move on, if not, then go back and do it again. 7. finalize the design and lock in the BOM 8. EOL study of the parts in the design 9. build up pilot run 10 send pilot samples to outside testing house for certification (10 to 12 weeks of testing to get safety certs). 11 start ordering long lead time parts and or start tooling up parts that don't exist (usually 10 to 14 weeks). 12. schedule just in time delivery of parts for MP. 13. work up production documentation 14. start MP and incorporate into the design. Now this doesn't take into account all the other things that go along with it like packaging, web site design, ad lit, shipping, UPC, etc. etc. etc. So it all comes down to time. Getting the design concept and prototypes built are pretty easy. Taking it from there to actual release involves a lot of work and unfortunately time. Having said that though, I can say that MP is running on those and will be released into the wild very soon.  Lonnie |
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Post by novisnick on Apr 5, 2017 8:45:17 GMT -5
I agree Nick. Good accurate meters would be awesome. What's the history of that ? Who knows about good built in power meters on amps ? From a technical standpoint, measuring the current flow vs. the voltage output to calculate the impedance can be done. But here is the rub. Since all speakers have wildly varying impedances based on the frequency and level of the incoming signal. The meters whether digital or analog would be jumping all over the place so fast that it would make you sick. Thus, all metering on audio gear has a time weighted average circuit in it to slow things down to a point where we can get the gist of what is going on. So to say you want accurate metering sounds really cool in theory, but in real life, its not so much. If you want to get an idea of this, just hook up a scope to the output of an amp and watch the wave form. Things are happening way to fast for us to take it all in and after a very short time, it just becomes noise on the screen. Thats why we have to adjust the time base on a scope so we can look at what is pertinent. Just food for thought. Lonnie Thanks so much lonnie for such great information. Now that im applying actual science to my request it makes perfect sense! What would it take/cost to be able to adjust the sensitivity of the meters with a time weighted average? This would allow a better correlation between response and speaker load. Maybe,,,,, |
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Post by mgbpuff on Apr 5, 2017 9:04:07 GMT -5
We don't need no stinking meters, this is audio equipment, meant to be heard, not seen.
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Post by Axis on Apr 5, 2017 9:34:38 GMT -5
Look deep into the dancing movement of the meters ...
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Post by jmilton on Apr 5, 2017 9:38:25 GMT -5
Just food for thought. Lonnie Thanks so much lonnie for such great information. Now that im applying actual science to my request it makes perfect sense! What would it take/cost to be able to adjust the sensitivity of the meters with a time weighted average? This would allow a better correlation between response and speaker load. Maybe,,,,, Careful... you are messing with the Space Time Continuum.  |
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Post by jcz06 on Apr 5, 2017 9:55:12 GMT -5
It would be great to work out a deal at Axpona for the three stereo blades and an RMC-1 purchase ....wishful thinking but at least I get to see them!! |
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Post by Lonnie on Apr 5, 2017 9:57:15 GMT -5
From a technical standpoint, measuring the current flow vs. the voltage output to calculate the impedance can be done. But here is the rub. Since all speakers have wildly varying impedances based on the frequency and level of the incoming signal. The meters whether digital or analog would be jumping all over the place so fast that it would make you sick. Thus, all metering on audio gear has a time weighted average circuit in it to slow things down to a point where we can get the gist of what is going on. So to say you want accurate metering sounds really cool in theory, but in real life, its not so much. If you want to get an idea of this, just hook up a scope to the output of an amp and watch the wave form. Things are happening way to fast for us to take it all in and after a very short time, it just becomes noise on the screen. Thats why we have to adjust the time base on a scope so we can look at what is pertinent. Just food for thought. Lonnie Thanks so much lonnie for such great information. Now that im applying actual science to my request it makes perfect sense! What would it take/cost to be able to adjust the sensitivity of the meters with a time weighted average? This would allow a better correlation between response and speaker load. Maybe,,,,, Its not that difficult. Most averaging circuits are made up of a couple of resistors and a capacitor. One resistor controls the charge rate of the capacitor and the other controls the discharge rate. If you replace the resistors with a resistor ladder (digitally controlled analog volume control). Then you would be able to adjust both the charge and discharge rates to be whatever you wanted. Its pretty simple to do. Lonnie |
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Post by novisnick on Apr 5, 2017 11:41:09 GMT -5
Thanks so much lonnie for such great information. Now that im applying actual science to my request it makes perfect sense! What would it take/cost to be able to adjust the sensitivity of the meters with a time weighted average? This would allow a better correlation between response and speaker load. Maybe,,,,, Its not that difficult. Most averaging circuits are made up of a couple of resistors and a capacitor. One resistor controls the charge rate of the capacitor and the other controls the discharge rate. If you replace the resistors with a resistor ladder (digitally controlled analog volume control). Then you would be able to adjust both the charge and discharge rates to be whatever you wanted. Its pretty simple to do. Lonnie Thanks so much for the explanation lonnie , I won't hold my breathe waiting for its implementation on Emotiva, or any other consumer grade amps. On a side note, the Emotiva Monoblocks match extremely well with my Paradigm Studio 100's V5, as if the lights were calibrated perfectly to show a correlation between the two. Specifically the XPA-1L and the XPR-1's, I've never had the pleasure of driving my speakers with the XPA-1's. |
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Post by redcoat23 on Apr 5, 2017 14:07:42 GMT -5
So, for my question regarding "Heavy Iron" XPA-1 availability, I sent a question into sales and this is their response.
'We don't have plans to eliminate the XPA-1 G2 at this time. We will have both the XPA-1m Gen 3 and the XPA-1 G2 available for the foreseeable future.'
Good to know and means I don't have to rush to get the remainder I need.
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Post by klinemj on Apr 5, 2017 15:22:35 GMT -5
The reason they have not been released yet is pretty simple and follows along with any project... Wait a minute...I thought you had a bunch of Elves in a tree and they just whipped the stuff up at will! Oh wait...that's Keebler. Mark |
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Post by garbulky on Apr 5, 2017 15:35:25 GMT -5
So, for my question regarding "Heavy Iron" XPA-1 availability, I sent a question into sales and this is their response. 'We don't have plans to eliminate the XPA-1 G2 at this time. We will have both the XPA-1m Gen 3 and the XPA-1 G2 available for the foreseeable future.'Good to know and means I don't have to rush to get the remainder I need. Thank GOD! The XPA-1 is one of the most perfect amplifiers I can think of. Huge power. Class A, fully balanced. Large capacitance. Big torroidal transformer. What else out there can match it (the specs at least) at the price? I wish the the lighter m version the best of luck but I'm glad the XPA-1 gen 2 will stay for the time being. |
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Post by Axis on Apr 5, 2017 15:42:40 GMT -5
So, for my question regarding "Heavy Iron" XPA-1 availability, I sent a question into sales and this is their response. 'We don't have plans to eliminate the XPA-1 G2 at this time. We will have both the XPA-1m Gen 3 and the XPA-1 G2 available for the foreseeable future.'Good to know and means I don't have to rush to get the remainder I need. Thank GOD! The XPA-1 is one of the most perfect amplifiers I can think of. Huge power. Class A, fully balanced. Large capacitance. Big torroidal transformer. What else out there can match it (the specs at least) at the price? I wish the the lighter m version the best of luck but I'm glad the XPA-1 gen 2 will stay for the time being. Garbulky, what if these XPA-1m Gen 3 Fully balanced quad differential blades out perform the XPA-1. Maybe even though they do not have all the Class A at first the "Super quiet, fast and powerful" that Dan speaks of with the new power supply may give it the edge. |
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Post by Lonnie on Apr 5, 2017 15:52:33 GMT -5
The reason they have not been released yet is pretty simple and follows along with any project... Wait a minute...I thought you had a bunch of Elves in a tree and they just whipped the stuff up at will! Oh wait...that's Keebler. Mark Have you seen me? I used to be one of those elves. Lonnie |
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Nor are they analogue meters, which would be so sweet to gaze at. Seriously. 
