MC-700 Questions and or Issue list.

[GTPlus]

May 31, 2017 21:21:27 GMT -5 Ruiner46 said:

I am getting the same "BZZZTBZTTZ" sound as shown in the video. It is not just an Apple issue. Mine happens most often when using an Xbox360.

It happens every single time the Xbox switches from 2 channel PCM 48KHz to Dolby digital 5.1. In fact, I can go into the Xbox options screen and just toggle dolby on and off and it will do it every time.

I reported this issue to Emotiva support hoping they can fix it with a firmware update. Can you guys check and see if the AppleTV is also using Dolby, or perhaps switching from one mode to another when you get the sound?

Edit: Just watched the video again and I noticed that the OSD pops up and says Dolby Digital right after the sound happens.

I should also mention that this happens with brand new BJC series FE cables from source to MC700 and from MC700 to my TV

This is the same with my PS4 pro as well. Switch between PCM and DD and you get a jarring buzz, click. It's not just Apple.

[KeithL]

As to "who SHOULD be responsible for fixing this issue?".....
That's an interesting question, and it sort of depends on the exact context.
(And it also sort of doesn't matter - because, regardless of who should be responsible, nobody in fact IS responsible... everybody simply does their best.)

If you were to play a CD, and different songs were at wildly different volume levels, you'd probably be cursing the mastering engineer for doing a bad job.
(And you wouldn't be blaming your CD player for failing to fix it.)
And, if, on a commercial CD, half of the songs were in stereo, and half were in mono, you'd probably feel much the same way.

So, perhaps, if you're watching a TV show, and the show is in stereo, and the commercials are in surround, someone at the cable company was being lazy.
(They COULD have re-encoded the commercials to match the show, or required that all commercials be submitted in the format that matches what they normally use for shows.)
I personally believe that, if you see that format box pop up between every commercial and scene, it's because of sloppy program editing at the station.
(And, if you change sources or channels, you should expect a momentary disruption while your system adjusts from one to the other.)

Likewise, if your WidgetTV box is set to "Dolby Digital", then is it really unreasonable to expect it to output everything in the same format, with no noise switching back and forth?
In a perfect world, wouldn't you simply set your WidgetTV to "Dolby Digital", and it would put everything out in Dolby Digital, so no switching and no clicks or pops.

Or, to pick another example, playing stuff on your Oppo in PCM and DSD.
If you set it to Bitstream, it's output will be switching back and forth, and our XMC-1 might make a slight tick when it switches.
BUT, if you set the Oppo to "Output PCM", then the output should ALWAYS be PCM, so there should NEVER be any need to switch.
At that point, since they're doing any required conversions, presumably THEY would be "at fault" if there's a tick.

The reality is that we live in a world with lots of different standards.
And a lot of different devices do their best to comply with the standards that apply to them and "deal with" everyone else as best they can.
(As per the famous quote: "The great thing about standards is that there are so many of them.")
You'll also note that there is no general standard for "how much noise is allowed when changing formats" or "how well the muting works".

Another thing is EXPECTATIONS.....

We have a lot of audiophiles here who still seem to like vinyl... right...?
So how come nobody is complaining that vinyl is totally unlistenable because of the big bang you get when you raise and lower the tonearm (the muting absolutely sucks, right?)
There actually were a few turntables that had muting that stopped the audio when you raised the arm. (For extra credit, who here cares enough to be able to name them?)
And how about all those noises between tracks, which, yet again, that crappy vinyl muting entirely fails to prevent?

Everybody today seems to expect perfection..... which just isn't possible.

It's not anyone's "responsibility" - everybody does their best and picks their priorities.
And, yeah, here at Emotiva we tend to place higher priority on sound quality while the music is playing than on eliminating every last little noise between tracks.
(So, yes, we'd rather risk a slight tick or pop between tracks, or between scenes, rather than do something that can entirely prevent it - at the cost of compromising sound quality.)

Jun 1, 2017 8:00:44 GMT -5 Boomzilla said:

This issue sounds like it's between a rock and a hard place. If the MC-700 mutes the sound until the change in incoming bitstream is recognized and re-locked, then there will be a silence between switching sound modes. That'll cause complaints.

OTOH, if the MC-700 doesn't mute the sound while the transition occurs, then the clicks will continue - again causing complaints.

But the bigger question is: Who should be responsible for fixing this issue? Apparently, some sources don't trigger this problem. Others do. Should it be the responsibility of the source manufacturer (Apple, Android, etc.) to eliminate the cause of the issue, or should it be Emotiva's responsibility to eliminate the consequence?

I'd vote that the device that causes the problem be the thing that needs fixing.

Boom

[GTPlus]

Thanks Keith.


But unfortunately I need to keep setting the PS4 back to DD from PCM because for some reason the PS4 keeps setting itself back to PCM, and I don't get audio from Blu-rays on the PS4 when set to PCM through the MC-700. Also static from my vinyl has never made my, admittedly somewhat skittish, wife jump

I hope no one is passing blame on Emotiva, we are just informing you of things that could be looked at for future improvements.

Anyone who buys tech in this day and age needs to understand there will be bugs, its all how the manufacturer handles those bugs that IMO defines the company.

[thrillcat]

Jun 1, 2017 8:00:44 GMT -5 Boomzilla said:

I'd vote that the device that causes the problem be the thing that needs fixing.

Boom

I would tend to agree. However...

Having watched that video, the noise is the same thing many of us have experienced on our UMC-200s. The primary offenders for us were DVRs. My TiVo Premiere gave me that noise every now and then upon pause/play or ff/play. Connecting audio via optical eliminated the issue. Now I'm using a TiVo Mini in the theater, which doesn't have an optical out. It has given me the same issue with audio over HDMI.

The same TiVo Premiere played just fine without issue through a ton of different AVRs. Sonys, Marantz, and Pioneer. IIRC, the official response was that the DVRs were not performing their muting task properly, which was causing the problem. Which I agree with, but what are other manufacturers doing in their hardware that prevents the noises from occurring?

FWIW, my AppleTV 4 has none of these issues with the UMC-200. Odd that a new processor is now not playing nicely with a different device.

[KeithL]

I have a simple and direct answer for you - but it may not satisfy you.

There is no "standard" for how muting is or should be done. Whenever the type of signal changes, or a signal simply stops and restarts, the circuitry receiving it has to lock onto the new signal....
As a result, INTERNALLY, there is a "jagged edge" between where the original signal stops and the new one starts.
(The only way to entirely avoid this would be if both are coming from the same source - and they take pains to prevent a discontinuity.
For example, your cable company COULD re-encode those commercials in the same format as the show and then seamlessly merge the data streams.
This is what happens when you configure your audio player to "fade between tracks"... but it carries certain limitations and requirements.)

Since nobody actually wants to hear the nasty noise you get when you play corrupted digital data, most devices do their best to mute the audio during those points.
(You'll notice that your picture breaks up and flickers during the transition as well - yet, oddly, this doesn't seem to disturb anyone.)
Many source devices also make some attempt to minimize the amount of time they output junk when performing a mode switch (some more than others).

Since there is no actual "flag" that describes when data stops... or when new data has fully synchronized, it's up to each piece of equipment to "decide" how to tell when to mute.
(The horrible loud noise that would blow your speakers is actually the "perfect high fidelity version of what's actually going on".)
Some devices, like our XMC-1, actually have different kinds of muting that take effect at different times.

However, as a generalization:
- very aggressive muting will probably remove every unpleasant noise, but at the risk of cutting off some stuff you might want to hear (like the first note of the song)
- very passive muting won't ever cut off anything good, but might let some of the noise through
- and some forms of muting actually affect the quality of the audio signal - even when they're turned off

My point here is that muting is always a compromise; there is no perfect or right way to do it that would satisfy everyone.
That would require a standard that actually had each piece of equipment signal the next when the signal is being sent and is ready to listen to....
From an engineering point of view that's certainly possible, but we don't have it at the moment (at least not in most consumer equipment).
(So we do our best to pick the method that works the best for our products - WITHOUT compromising performance or sound quality in another area.)

Jun 1, 2017 10:57:39 GMT -5 thrillcat said:

Jun 1, 2017 8:00:44 GMT -5 Boomzilla said:

I'd vote that the device that causes the problem be the thing that needs fixing.

Boom

I would tend to agree. However...

Having watched that video, the noise is the same thing many of us have experienced on our UMC-200s. The primary offenders for us were DVRs. My TiVo Premiere gave me that noise every now and then upon pause/play or ff/play. Connecting audio via optical eliminated the issue. Now I'm using a TiVo Mini in the theater, which doesn't have an optical out. It has given me the same issue with audio over HDMI.

The same TiVo Premiere played just fine without issue through a ton of different AVRs. Sonys, Marantz, and Pioneer. IIRC, the official response was that the DVRs were not performing their muting task properly, which was causing the problem. Which I agree with, but what are other manufacturers doing in their hardware that prevents the noises from occurring?

FWIW, my AppleTV 4 has none of these issues with the UMC-200. Odd that a new processor is now not playing nicely with a different device.

[thrillcat]

I'm completely satisfied by that response, actually, and I've been a very happy UMC-200 owner for a few years now. The solution was really easy enough, I just found other ways to not use the devices that cause the problems. I now have better quality with fewer devices and the same programming.

[DaFalcon]

The problem with the video dropping out when changing audio modes, I mentioned previously, will only happen if the DVR is connected to ports 4-6. When I connected it to port 2, I still get the audio pop but the video doesn't fail. So I guess for now I have to live without the on screen display, if I want the video to work consistently.

[rbk123]

Jun 1, 2017 11:37:46 GMT -5 KeithL said:

I have a simple and direct answer for you -
...

However, as a generalization:
- very aggressive muting will probably remove every unpleasant noise, but at the risk of cutting off some stuff you might want to hear (like the first note of the song)
- very passive muting won't ever cut off anything good, but might let some of the noise through
- and some forms of muting actually affect the quality of the audio signal - even when they're turned off

My point here is that muting is always a compromise; there is no perfect or right way to do it that would satisfy everyone.

I'm not sure you answered his question, or if so I missed it. He asked "but what are other manufacturers doing in their hardware that prevents the noises from occurring?". It would appear that most everyone here, if not everyone, has other devices that don't make those noises or have the other HDMI switching issues, without cutting off anything good or affecting the audio signal as you mentioned in your response. If they did, they would have mentioned it; I know my other devices do not. So what are the Denon's and Marantz's etc... doing right that Emo isn't doing? And, just as the others have made clear, the intent isn't to blame but it appears it can be done to satisfaction so everyone's hoping Emo can figure out what the others are doing and implement it as well.

[mhoran]

Jun 2, 2017 8:46:01 GMT -5 rbk123 said:

Jun 1, 2017 11:37:46 GMT -5 KeithL said:

I have a simple and direct answer for you -
...

However, as a generalization:
- very aggressive muting will probably remove every unpleasant noise, but at the risk of cutting off some stuff you might want to hear (like the first note of the song)
- very passive muting won't ever cut off anything good, but might let some of the noise through
- and some forms of muting actually affect the quality of the audio signal - even when they're turned off

My point here is that muting is always a compromise; there is no perfect or right way to do it that would satisfy everyone.

I'm not sure you answered his question, or if so I missed it. He asked "but what are other manufacturers doing in their hardware that prevents the noises from occurring?". It would appear that most everyone here, if not everyone, has other devices that don't make those noises or have the other HDMI switching issues, without cutting off anything good or affecting the audio signal as you mentioned in your response. If they did, they would have mentioned it; I know my other devices do not. So what are the Denon's and Marantz's etc... doing right that Emo isn't doing? And, just as the others have made clear, the intent isn't to blame but it appears it can be done to satisfaction so everyone's hoping Emo can figure out what the others are doing and implement it as well.

I was experiencing the popping issue with my MC-700 and my Roku and media center PC and ended up exchanging it for the XMC-1. As Keith pointed out, the mute timing is always a trade-off, and in the case of the XMC-1 I no longer experience the popping, but silence in music sometimes causes a note or two to get cut off.

[KeithL]

Actually, I answered the question, but probably not exactly as you expected.

The short answer is "they're designing and building it with different priorities than ours".
(You might as well ask: "Why is a Formula One racing car faster than my Nissan, but noisier and less comfortable to ride in?")

Some of those other folks have made choices - in terms of their priorities - that do a better job of eliminating more unpleasant switching noise.
However, while their choices enable them to do that one thing well, they may also have drawbacks.
In fact, on the subject of priorities, they've placed a higher priority on "avoiding unpleasant noises" than on "sound quality".
(So, for example, if given the choice, they would have chosen the DSP that makes fewer noises when switching inputs over the one that delivers better sound quality.)

And, yes, some of that prioritizing involves plain old money.
Would you REALLY be willing to spend $10k on a unit that SOUNDED as good as an XMC-1, but was as good at avoiding switching noise as a $500 Denon or Marantz receiver?
How about if the price was the same, or even less, but it didn't sound as good as the XMC-1?
(In fact, they're providing you that option right now.)
We decided to spend our budget, and our efforts, to deliver the best sound quality.
It's pretty clear that those other guys had other priorities....
(They might have chosen to use a part that makes less switching noise, but doesn't sound as good; or it may be a matter of where they spent their design budget; or both.
"Muting longer and cutting off the beginning of the song" is a popular example, but it's usually not as simple as pointing to a single part, or a single choice of how to program something... )

Jun 2, 2017 8:46:01 GMT -5 rbk123 said:

Jun 1, 2017 11:37:46 GMT -5 KeithL said:

I have a simple and direct answer for you -
...

However, as a generalization:
- very aggressive muting will probably remove every unpleasant noise, but at the risk of cutting off some stuff you might want to hear (like the first note of the song)
- very passive muting won't ever cut off anything good, but might let some of the noise through
- and some forms of muting actually affect the quality of the audio signal - even when they're turned off

My point here is that muting is always a compromise; there is no perfect or right way to do it that would satisfy everyone.

I'm not sure you answered his question, or if so I missed it. He asked "but what are other manufacturers doing in their hardware that prevents the noises from occurring?". It would appear that most everyone here, if not everyone, has other devices that don't make those noises or have the other HDMI switching issues, without cutting off anything good or affecting the audio signal as you mentioned in your response. If they did, they would have mentioned it; I know my other devices do not. So what are the Denon's and Marantz's etc... doing right that Emo isn't doing? And, just as the others have made clear, the intent isn't to blame but it appears it can be done to satisfaction so everyone's hoping Emo can figure out what the others are doing and implement it as well.

[KeithL]

I agree.....

And part of the issue is that not everyone follows the standards.
To put it bluntly, we test our equipment to comply with the standards, and to work well with other equipment that ALSO complies with the standards.
However, sometimes we don't handle dealing with other equipment that FAILS to follow the standards as well as some other people do.

A company like Marantz or Denon can afford to spend a lot of extra money to ensure that their equipment also works well with other equipment that DOESN'T comply with the standards.
Unfortunately, in many cases, that means that they've had to spend money doing that which could have been used somewhere else - perhaps to improve the SOUND QUALITY.

A lot of PS4's have been sold.
And they are also pretty well known to have a lot of (various) problems.
It would be nice if we had the time and budget to redesign our equipment to ignore or compensate for their problems.
As it is, when we hear about common problems, we do our best to sort them out.
(And, of course, we always try to make the sort of improvements that will make our equipment less sensitive to problems from outside.)

Unfortunately, HDMI technology in general is fussier than previous types of connections, which makes issues both more likely to occur and often a lot more complicated to solve.

Jun 1, 2017 9:46:41 GMT -5 GTPlus said:

Thanks Keith.

But unfortunately I need to keep setting the PS4 back to DD from PCM because for some reason the PS4 keeps setting itself back to PCM, and I don't get audio from Blu-rays on the PS4 when set to PCM through the MC-700. Also static from my vinyl has never made my, admittedly somewhat skittish, wife jump

I hope no one is passing blame on Emotiva, we are just informing you of things that could be looked at for future improvements.

Anyone who buys tech in this day and age needs to understand there will be bugs, its all how the manufacturer handles those bugs that IMO defines the company.

[jolaca]

I'm glad Emotiva choose to focus on sound quality!!. I'm enjoying the SQ that MC700 and my other equipment deliver, really great sound! And I'm not having these problems either...maybe I don't switch my AV sources so often as others, I don't know.

[rbk123]

Jun 2, 2017 9:37:59 GMT -5 KeithL said:

(So, for example, if given the choice, they would have chosen the DSP that makes fewer noises when switching inputs over the one that delivers better sound quality.)

This makes sense, thanks.

[bigkid]

Hi all.

First time owner of an Emotiva product and first time poster. Can I confirm that I have something right based upon earlier posts. The 'Parameters' tab in the menu has been replaced by 'Trim'. The Trim settings are not retained when the unit is turned off. I use the Emo-Q room eq. It gives me too much bass and dialogue is too quiet. I can remedy this in settings that are retained (absent a 'Parameters' page) by adjusting the levels (for sub and centre channels) in the Test Tones page. These adjust not only the test tones at the time but also are retained as the settings for each channel. Have I got this right?

Appreciate your advice.

Regards,

Allan

[rbk123]

Trim are temporary adjustments that aren't retained when u shut down. Parameters are in a different location in the menu and are retained.

[bigkid]

Jun 2, 2017 21:50:08 GMT -5 rbk123 said:

Trim are temporary adjustments that aren't retained when u shut down. Parameters are in a different location in the menu and are retained.

Hi rbk123. Thanks for responding. Yep, got that about the Trim settings. I may have this wrong but, contrary to what is written in the manual, there is no 'Parameters' page, not as a tab in the top menu (as is specified in the manual), nor in the sub-menus. There are a number of EQ adjustment pages (one for each of the EmoQ and Manual EQ profiles) and there is the Test Tone page. No page specifically for raising or lowering levels for each channel and retaining those settings. This has been mentioned in earlier posts and I think it was suggested that setting the levels in the Test Tones achieved the same result. I would test it but I am away from home at the moment.

Cheers,

Allan

[bolle]

That´s in the speaker menu, in the UMC-200 it was hiddend in "test tones". Just look a little bit around in this section.

The oh so long promised new and improved manual would perhaps help - if it would ever surface.

[bigkid]

Thanks Bolle. Yes, it is the Test Tones page. I adjusted the Test Tone levels last night and those settings were also applied to the audio channels for a test blu-ray. A bit counter-intuitive, but it works, and the settings were retained after a restart. So, all sorted.

Thanks.

Regards,

Allan

[pips]

The sound popping with handshaking was a pretty big issue when the UMC-200 came out, and it was mostly fixed in one of the first updates. Unfortunately, it introduced a weird helicopter sound that would randomly show up that was never fixed, even though it never happened before the updates. It only happened to me once every few months, so it wasn't a big deal.

My MC-700 has been pretty good so far once I got all my devices on the right inputs. However, now after it warms up after 10-15 minutes I have a high pitched whine from the device itself, so I'll probably have to have it sent in when I get back from my travels.

[mhoran]

Jun 4, 2017 9:05:38 GMT -5 pips said:

The sound popping with handshaking was a pretty big issue when the UMC-200 came out, and it was mostly fixed in one of the first updates. Unfortunately, it introduced a weird helicopter sound that would randomly show up that was never fixed, even though it never happened before the updates. It only happened to me once every few months, so it wasn't a big deal.

My MC-700 has been pretty good so far once I got all my devices on the right inputs. However, now after it warms up after 10-15 minutes I have a high pitched whine from the device itself, so I'll probably have to have it sent in when I get back from my travels.

I had the high pitched whine as well. It seemed to be coming from the front panel display.