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Post by Bonzo on Aug 14, 2017 15:14:12 GMT -5
You are correct about the photo I posted, I grabbed it off the net but both of mine are the original with all of the extra jacks and such. From chatting on other forums about this unit it is the best of the whole line. From what I gathered, it was only the best because it had more complete surge protection because of the extra phone and network inputs. They dropped that protection. But from I gathered, they didn't change anything else. The rest of the innards stayed the same very high quality. So the conditioning and surge protection is the same. But again, I don't know that with 100% certainty. If we only lived down the street from each other we could take them apart and compare. I know what we see on the outside stayed the same. The two I have are built like tanks. Very heavy and solid. They also have that thick heavy duty very long power cable you mentioned. Here nor there, I wouldn't want to be without them. I think I'd be hunting for a sound that might not exist. |
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Post by westom on Aug 14, 2017 15:27:11 GMT -5
Why so many recommendations and not one relevant specification number provided? It is recommended because it is expensive. Not because it does anything useful.
For example, it claims to clean power. Then what happens? Electronics convert that 'clean' 120 volts into well over 300 volt radio frequency spikes. That incoming electricity is now 'dirtiest' possible power with plenty of harmonics and other noise.
Why are resulting low DC voltages so clean? Best filters, regulators, and galvanic isolation convert that now 'dirtiest' power into cleanest power required by audio. Completely irrelevant is how 'clean' or 'dirty' incoming power is. Since it is intentionally converted to dirtiest power. Then circuits, far superior and already purchased, do everything better than an $800 Belkin PF60 might do.
So why no specification numbers? Most who recommend this expensive and inferior product do not even know what already does better cleaning. Subjective claims (no numbers - also called junk science) has told them they need this expensive magic box. Where are the specifications for filtering and those other magic functions? Why are these critically important numbers not provided? It says much about the many who recommend a PF60.
Did it ever do effective protection? Where did it even discuss protection from surges that typically do damage? How did it 'block' or 'absorb' hundreds of thousands of joules? It didn't. It was recommended for surge protection only by the many who never demand and read specification numbers.
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Post by novisnick on Aug 14, 2017 15:30:11 GMT -5
You are correct about the photo I posted, I grabbed it off the net but both of mine are the original with all of the extra jacks and such. From chatting on other forums about this unit it is the best of the whole line. From what I gathered, it was only the best because it had more complete surge protection because of the extra phone and network inputs. They dropped that protection. But from I gathered, they didn't change anything else. The rest of the innards stayed the same very high quality. So the conditioning and surge protection is the same. But again, I don't know that with 100% certainty. If we only lived down the street from each other we could take them apart and compare. I know what we see on the outside stayed the same. The two I have are built like tanks. Very heavy and solid. They also have that thick heavy duty very long power cable you mentioned. Here nor there, I wouldn't want to be without them. I think I'd be hunting for a sound that might not exist. |
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Post by Bonzo on Aug 14, 2017 15:48:04 GMT -5
Why so many recommendations and not one relevant specification number provided? It is recommended because it is expensive. Not because it does anything useful. For example, it claims to clean power. Then what happens? Electronics convert that 'clean' 120 volts into well over 300 volt radio frequency spikes. That incoming electricity is now 'dirtiest' possible power with plenty of harmonics and other noise. Why are resulting low DC voltages so clean? Best filters, regulators, and galvanic isolation convert that now 'dirtiest' power into cleanest power required by audio. Completely irrelevant is how 'clean' or 'dirty' incoming power is. Since it is intentionally converted to dirtiest power. Then circuits, far superior and already purchased, do everything better than an $800 Belkin PF60 might do. So why no specification numbers? Most who recommend this expensive and inferior product do not even know what already does better cleaning. Subjective claims (no numbers - also called junk science) has told them they need this expensive magic box. Where are the specifications for filtering and those other magic functions? Why are these critically important numbers not provided? It says much about the many who recommend a PF60. Did it ever do effective protection? Where did it even discuss protection from surges that typically do damage? How did it 'block' or 'absorb' hundreds of thousands of joules? It didn't. It was recommended for surge protection only by the many who never demand and read specification numbers. Well first of all, I only spent $150 each. Second, your numbers thing might be important to me if I were searching out the best conditioner or looking to get the very last drop out of my system. I'm not. I originally just wanted something better than a Monster strip, and thats what I got. Third it was almost by accident I found out how much better they make my system SOUND. If you ever read my posts from many years back, I came about 5 minutes away from sending the XPAs back when they were plugged straight to the wall. Only as a last ditch effort did I plug them into the PF60, and whalla, the great sound returned. There is most certainly a difference in my system. From a SOUND standpoint, I say to hell with your numbers argument. Lastly, Im not recommending anything to anybody for their systems. All I'm saying is that people who say they make no difference, or can't possibly make a difference, at least in the case of the PF60, are talking with just as much ignorance as you claim we are doing in regards to numbers. I've heard the difference. Its not hocus pocus or snake oil. At my address, its fact. |
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Post by novisnick on Aug 14, 2017 15:50:48 GMT -5
Why so many recommendations and not one relevant specification number provided? It is recommended because it is expensive. Not because it does anything useful. For example, it claims to clean power. Then what happens? Electronics convert that 'clean' 120 volts into well over 300 volt radio frequency spikes. That incoming electricity is now 'dirtiest' possible power with plenty of harmonics and other noise. Why are resulting low DC voltages so clean? Best filters, regulators, and galvanic isolation convert that now 'dirtiest' power into cleanest power required by audio. Completely irrelevant is how 'clean' or 'dirty' incoming power is. Since it is intentionally converted to dirtiest power. Then circuits, far superior and already purchased, do everything better than an $800 Belkin PF60 might do. So why no specification numbers? Most who recommend this expensive and inferior product do not even know what already does better cleaning. Subjective claims (no numbers - also called junk science) has told them they need this expensive magic box. Where are the specifications for filtering and those other magic functions? Why are these critically important numbers not provided? It says much about the many who recommend a PF60. Did it ever do effective protection? Where did it even discuss protection from surges that typically do damage? How did it 'block' or 'absorb' hundreds of thousands of joules? It didn't. It was recommended for surge protection only by the many who never demand and read specification numbers. I think the PF 60 makes the music sound more chocolaty!,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,with 🥜 nuts |
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Post by Axis on Aug 14, 2017 15:52:46 GMT -5
I use surge protectors on all my audio, video and pc gear. I used to have the Belkin pure av strips and they had some kinda hair conditioner but I just had them for the surge protection. Now I use some GE surge protection power strips that have 10 outlets and a couple USB charge ports. I have four of them around my living room with all my gear plugged into them. They have a power toggle on them that I use to cut power to all my gear every night and when I leave home.
Every now and then my power goes on and off and on and off real fast and if you listen close you can hear those surge protectors click. I unplug everything fast because I only have four plugs I need to pull out of the wall for everything. I unplug every power strip for every storm including cable connection. Takes me less than 15 seconds to be off the grid.
You have to replace your surge protection every year or two because they are only built for a handful times. That's only if you have small surges. Something like lightning and your screwed if things are plugged in.
The electricity supplying my home does not affect the sound quality of my audio or the picture quality of my video. If you have a problem I would think beyond just power conditioner. A good uninterruptible power supply with active filters is what we used with very delicate laboratory instruments to test hydrocarbons. Audio gear does not need the same level of current stability.
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Post by Bonzo on Aug 14, 2017 17:32:48 GMT -5
I wish I had more people like you living close to me that I knew. I'd love to compare systems, and more importantly get exposed to music I may not normally listen to. It wouldn't hurt if they could cook like you either! Although my wife is quite the amateur chef if I do say so myself. |
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Post by johnnyd70 on Aug 14, 2017 17:36:50 GMT -5
I wish I had more people like you living close to me that I knew. I'd love to compare systems, and more importantly get exposed to music I may not normally listen to. It wouldn't hurt if they could cook like you either! Although my wife is quite the amateur chef if I do say so myself. Ditto for anyone in central Ohio. Plus I always have goodies to throw on the grill. 🍗 |
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Post by novisnick on Aug 14, 2017 18:56:19 GMT -5
Ditto for anyone in central Ohio. Plus I always have goodies to throw on the grill. 🍗 |
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Post by RichGuy on Aug 14, 2017 20:32:30 GMT -5
You are correct about the photo I posted, I grabbed it off the net but both of mine are the original with all of the extra jacks and such. From chatting on other forums about this unit it is the best of the whole line. From what I gathered, it was only the best because it had more complete surge protection because of the extra phone and network inputs. They dropped that protection. But from I gathered, they didn't change anything else. The rest of the innards stayed the same very high quality. So the conditioning and surge protection is the same. But again, I don't know that with 100% certainty. If we only lived down the street from each other we could take them apart and compare. I know what we see on the outside stayed the same. The two I have are built like tanks. Very heavy and solid. They also have that thick heavy duty very long power cable you mentioned. Here nor there, I wouldn't want to be without them. I think I'd be hunting for a sound that might not exist. Bonzo, you are correct that there were some PF60's which only dropped some connections these also came with a smaller 14ga power cord rather than the original 12ga ones. These were still very good. There were several different changes in phone and Ethernet connections made sometimes they were there and sometimes not, early ones had 4 pairs of coax connectors later ones had 3 pair, But there were a number of different changes that some PF60's also had, some that really started to cheap things out. See the picture below which is one of the worst versions. In this one the switched/delay controls were removed and no longer on the back and it only has 2 buttons on the front instead of 3 because it has no switched controls. It also only has 4 banks of isolated outputs rather than the 6 banks of isolated outputs, this was a big downgrade. This one the back has only 4 isolated banks, 2 banks with 4 outlets and 2 banks with 2 outlets. The better units have 6 isolated banks with 2 outlets at each bank on the back, (The one front outlet is shared on one bank on all models) This is one of the most downgraded versions. BTW these are currently being sold new on ebay for $1,228.88  |
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Post by Axis on Aug 14, 2017 20:42:00 GMT -5
I just wonder if you guys are spending money on a problem you don't have.
How do you know that you have a problem with the electricity coming out of your wall socket ?
Convince me you do !
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Post by RichGuy on Aug 14, 2017 22:02:36 GMT -5
I just wonder if you guys are spending money on a problem you don't have. How do you know that you have a problem with the electricity coming out of your wall socket ? Convince me you do ! I have two Belkin PF60's both original versions one I bought new for around $200 years ago and one I recently bought used here on the Lounge for $125 just recently. I consider both great purchases that will stay in my system as other things will come and go. First: I use all 12 rear outlets on one of my PF60's which are not available from the walls one unused outlet. Second: I compared and auditioned a lot of different direct power strips, surge protectors and power conditioners. Yes the overall sound quality can vary among them and some affected the sound quality very poorly, limiting peaks is one of the most common, bass changes, warmth & harshness changes also could be heard with auditioning. I liked the way my system sounded best on the PF60 which I ended up choosing. Third: extra protection from electrical spikes caused both from inside or outside the home. There is no guaranteed lightning strike protection, if you get that just be glad if you still have a safe home after. Forth: lots of extras advanced trigger, switched ON/OFF controls, delay controls, voltage & amp usage monitoring, isolation among other components to reduce both noise and a problem in one component affecting others in your system. Fifth: added protection from unwanted noise entering my system, both always there noise or sudden temporary interruptions Sixth: a nicer looking place to have multiple components plugged into. There are a lot of reasons I like my investment in my power conditioner. |
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Post by 405x5 on Aug 15, 2017 7:17:47 GMT -5
I wasn't sure my power conditioner was getting clean power, so I added a power conditioner.
Bill
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Post by Bonzo on Aug 15, 2017 9:30:20 GMT -5
Bonzo, you are correct that there were some PF60's which only dropped some connections these also came with a smaller 14ga power cord rather than the original 12ga ones. These were still very good. There were several different changes in phone and Ethernet connections made sometimes they were there and sometimes not, early ones had 4 pairs of coax connectors later ones had 3 pair, But there were a number of different changes that some PF60's also had, some that really started to cheap things out. See the picture below which is one of the worst versions. In this one the switched/delay controls were removed and no longer on the back and it only has 2 buttons on the front instead of 3 because it has no switched controls. It also only has 4 banks of isolated outputs rather than the 6 banks of isolated outputs, this was a big downgrade. This one the back has only 4 isolated banks, 2 banks with 4 outlets and 2 banks with 2 outlets. The better units have 6 isolated banks with 2 outlets at each bank on the back, (The one front outlet is shared on one bank on all models) I had seen pictures of that one but never even considered it since it had much less as you say. WOW! Are you kidding me?!?!?!? That's crazy. Obviously the big question is what's inside? I mean "features" may or may not be a downgrade depending on what a person is looking for and their needs. Of course I would consider yours with the additional phone and ethernet ports "more" than the ones I have. I don't mind that those plugs are missing from mine, but I certainly wouldn't complain if it had them either (would be nice if they did actually just in case I ever needed them). But if what I researched and read was true (again, not 100% certain), that the main power handling innards and switching were exactly the same, then for me, both units are still as good as it gets for the main functions I'm using them for. It would be nice to know for sure, but there just doesn't seem to be hard core facts out there. But I do see Belkin's whole naming of this unit as a big fiasco problem, and no wonder all the confusion. How/why in the hell would they name so many different products the exact same number? They should have at least done something like PF60.1 - PF60.2 etc. Confusing and totally misleading. Hence why in the other thread some of us think it would be good for Emotiva to start some sort of official XMC-1 designation program, to avoid consumer confusion. Thanks for posting the pics of this lesser model. |
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Post by westom on Aug 15, 2017 9:39:11 GMT -5
Well first of all, I only spent $150 each. Why would anyone spend $150 to protect only one item only from anomalies that are not destructive; that are even irrelevant? And to also compromise what is better protection already inside electronics? If that one item needs protection, then an informed homeowner knows everything else needs that protection including dishwasher, LED & CFL bulbs, furnace, dimmer switches, refrigerator, recharging electronics, central air, smoke detectors .... everything. Protection for everything from all types of surges cost about $1 per protected appliance. Even a $150 PF60 needs that protection. Anything that PF60 does is completely undone. All 'cleaning' is undone. So why would that make sound better? It does not. Placebos work on the emotional. The logical see facts and numbers. Or use double blind tests. Double blind testing demonstrated that "better sound" really was not. So many are so emotional as to deny reality. PF60 is marketed only to that type consumer. Best conditioner at the amp is already inside that amp. Some consumers scam themselves by buying an inferior product for a tiny less or many times more prices. Then spend massively on magic boxed to get what already exists in other electronics. Anything that PF60 claims to do must already be done better inside electronics. Then a PF60 is recommended without numbers. Why would anyone associate Monster with credibility? Monster's long history is to identify scams. Then market a similar product for many times higher prices. If Monster is selling it, then the competition may also be marketing a scam. Anyone could have learn this over 40 years ago. Monster sold speaker wires with ends marked for speaker and amp. Monster said the 'speaker end' connected, instead, to an amp would subvert sound quality. And yes, so many reversed wires and could hear a difference. Placebo effect. So Monster sold $7 speaker wires for $70. Discussing Monster, in a paragraph about quality, identifies a target market for ineffective products with obscene profit margins from Monster and the PF60. It is hocus pocus - also called the placebo effect. You did not cite numbers with every claim. You did not even do double blind testing - a requirement for an honest person. This serious problems continues with people who promote lies - because they feel rather than know. Who also believed Saddam and WMDs? A similar example of how easily scams get promoted. Numbers said WMDs did not exist. How many eyes glazed over with each number? Even history is full of examples; scams are that easily promoted especially among the many who feel rather than learn. That PF60 is not promoted with numbers because its tiny 'cleaning' does nothing useful. It is a profit center marketed to the most naive. Superior hardware protection costs about $1 per protected appliance. Why would anyone spend $150 for so much less? Damning numbers. |
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Post by westom on Aug 15, 2017 9:54:01 GMT -5
Every now and then my power goes on and off and on and off real fast and if you listen close you can hear those surge protectors click. ... You have to replace your surge protection every year or two because they are only built for a handful times. That's only if you have small surges. Something like lightning and your screwed if things are plugged in. Surge protectors do not click. Read specification numbers. 120 volt protector parts do nothing - remain completely inert - until 120 volts rises to well above 330 volts. Another relevant number. Power going on and off means voltage varies between 120 volts and zero. It rised no where near to 330 volts. Take a $3 power strip with some ten cent protector parts. Sell it for $25 or $85 dollars to consumers who only feel. A surge, too tiny to damage any appliances, can destroy that near zero joule protector. Then another scam gets promoted. "My protector sacrificed itself to save my amp." Total nonsense. Less protection even in a refrigerator, dishwasher, dimmer switches, and central air conditioner protect from a near zero surge that destroyed a near zero (high profit) protector. Effective protection from all surges - including direct lightning strikes - costs about $1 per protected appliance. With numbers that define protection from direct lightning - and lesser transients. Necessary to even protect a PF60. How many learned about protection that has been well proven for over 100 years? How many instead feel that near zero, plug-in protector will do what the manufacturer does not even say it will do? Effective protector remains functional for decades after multiple direct lightning strikes. Specification numbers say why. Never ignore specification numbers. A fundamental fact well understood even over 100 years ago. A protector is only as effective as its earth ground. Superior protection costs about $1 per protected appliance. Properly earthed protection costs that many times less money. |
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Post by leonski on Aug 15, 2017 13:47:58 GMT -5
Depending on where you live and actual frequency of lightning? A Whole House surge protector may be the ticket. One thing my Power conditioner has that a simple lightning protection device DOESN'T is that
my conditioner shuts off power Below about 95vac and above maybe 135vac. This has happened 2x or 3x in a decade + of ownership.
The other way to 'condition' power would be to use an Isolation Transformer. Large values can be both Heavy and Expensive. All my low power equipment is thru a 400va isolation transformer. This eliminated ALL
the little 'flecks' on a CRT Television I had at the time. When signal was removed from the set, it went Jet Black.
In general, the addition of a power conditioner made such a dramatic difference for the better that I had to readjust my speaker setup.
And NO, do Not plug your amp thru one. Generally, it sucks the life out of an amp.
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Post by goozoo on Aug 15, 2017 16:02:29 GMT -5
There are many people who swear by them, and there are varying grades depending on price. For example, we have setup sound studios who use Shunyata Hydra to connect all their equipment to, and are very happy. When I had my Transparent Audio Power Isolator connected to the Mark Levinson Amps, they did sound a bit smoother with a quieter noise floor. Once I switched to Theta amps, then it sounded worse and I ended up plugging them into the wall directly. I think that with the amount of money people spend on their systems, something like a Panamax or Furman will work nicely and offer more protection than most "surge protectors" that people purchase. That being said, I don't think they are really worth more than a few hundred dollars; and certainly not worth the thousands that Transparent Audio, Shunyata, or Audioquest thinks they are. I was fortunate in that I found my Power Isolator for pennies on the dollar through an estate sale.
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Post by leonski on Aug 15, 2017 17:04:07 GMT -5
I paid a premium for my Panamax quite a while ago. But, it also has a 400va isolation transformer as part of the deal. Here's a Cost-No-Object solution with a 2000va Plitron Isolation transformer. www.6moons.com/audioreviews/bpt/bp2.htmlI suspect even medium to high powered amps will not tax this unit IF it is into a 20 amp circuit. And than even at highest playback levels. |
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Post by westom on Aug 15, 2017 19:18:41 GMT -5
I paid a premium for my Panamax quite a while ago. But, it also has a 400va isolation transformer as part of the deal. 400 va says nothing about protection. A transformer that can connect 200 volts (primary to secondary) is also a 400 va transformer. Meanwhile galvanic isolation already inside electronics is typically thousands of volts. So a Panamax was all but non-existent (and very expensive) due to superior protection inside electronics. Anything that would 'block' a surge is akin to a scam. Surges are a current source. That means voltage increases as necessary to blow through anything that might 'block' it. Best galvanic isolation is already inside appliances. All appliances, long before PCs existed, would withstand 600 volts without damage. Today's electronics are even more robust. One PSU speced 1800 volt isolation. Best protection means a surge current is nowhere inside that building. Then best protection already inside every appliance is not overwhelmed. Effective protectors (costing about $1 per protected appliance) comes from other manufacturers known by any guy for integrity. Including Intermatic, Square D, Ditek, Siemens, Polyphaser (an industry benchmark), Syscom, Leviton, ABB, Delta, Erico, General Electric, and Cutler-Hammer (Eaton). Panamax and Furman are not listed. Anyone can read those spec numbers. How many did not? |
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