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Post by copperpipe on Dec 29, 2017 9:31:00 GMT -5
Ah, copperpipe - You're an optimist... The design engineers don't really get to spec the power cable (or much of anything else). The marketing boys do. They're the one who want the amp to meet a target price so that they can sell the most at the greatest profit. The qualities of most EVERYTHING in the amp (including the power cord) are subject to cost constraints. This means that if a cost-compromise is proposed that will affect only 1% of the purchasers, the cheaper part is used every single time. So your amp won't actually exceed its specs due to the limits of the power cord or heat sinks (for example)? The marketing boys don't care - and they have the final say. Now the hypothetical case above is highly unlikely - power cords are cheap. But the principle is sound for EVERY phase of component design. Why don't Emotiva amps have half-inch-thick solid milled aluminum faceplates like some "high-end" amps? Cost. Why don't Emotiva amps use name-brand exotic parts like some of the "super-amps?" Cost. Why don't Emotiva amps run much cooler due to their adequate-but-marginal heat sinks? Cost. Why can't Emotiva amps put out twice their wattage into four-ohm loads? Cost. Why don't Emotiva amps use the jewelry-like, heavy-metal speaker connectors that some other expensive amps use? Cost. Now some of the cost compromises (chassis and power cords for example) probably don't really affect the sound at all, which is why Emotiva can compete with many amps that cost more. But some of those compromises - particularly in resistor, transformer, heat-sink, and capacitor qualities and quantities are definitely audible. This is why I'd rather have a Mark Levinson, McIntosh, or Audio-Research amp, for example, than an Emotiva. But one pays their money and takes their choice. Within limits, you get what you pay for. But yes, if the marketing boys could save 10 cents on some copper wire, they WOULD do it provided that the amp still met its specs with the cheaper cord. Cordially - Boomzilla I think Emotiva is small enough that there are no marketing guys making decisions. Do they even _have_ marketing guys? I've yet to see them. What I see, is the president and chief designers coming on here, talking about their amps and their design decisions. Take a good hard look at the case (for example), how it is bullet proof compared to any home theatre AVR. You're suggesting they overkill the case by twice the margin needed to simply match what others are doing, but can't afford an extra 10 cents on a power cable? They (used to) have 60+ pound transformers in there, but can't afford a proper power cable?? I'm sorry, but that kind of logic just doesn't pass the basic sniffer test. And y'all all so worried about the external cable, but no one is going inside the case and replacing all the internal wiring with "magic cable". Why not? |
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guitarforlife
Sensei
Just another busy day in Northern Wisconsin.
Posts: 947
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Post by guitarforlife on Dec 29, 2017 9:57:37 GMT -5
Ah, copperpipe - You're an optimist... The design engineers don't really get to spec the power cable (or much of anything else). The marketing boys do. They're the one who want the amp to meet a target price so that they can sell the most at the greatest profit. The qualities of most EVERYTHING in the amp (including the power cord) are subject to cost constraints. This means that if a cost-compromise is proposed that will affect only 1% of the purchasers, the cheaper part is used every single time. So your amp won't actually exceed its specs due to the limits of the power cord or heat sinks (for example)? The marketing boys don't care - and they have the final say. Now the hypothetical case above is highly unlikely - power cords are cheap. But the principle is sound for EVERY phase of component design. Why don't Emotiva amps have half-inch-thick solid milled aluminum faceplates like some "high-end" amps? Cost. Why don't Emotiva amps use name-brand exotic parts like some of the "super-amps?" Cost. Why don't Emotiva amps run much cooler due to their adequate-but-marginal heat sinks? Cost. Why can't Emotiva amps put out twice their wattage into four-ohm loads? Cost. Why don't Emotiva amps use the jewelry-like, heavy-metal speaker connectors that some other expensive amps use? Cost. Now some of the cost compromises (chassis and power cords for example) probably don't really affect the sound at all, which is why Emotiva can compete with many amps that cost more. But some of those compromises - particularly in resistor, transformer, heat-sink, and capacitor qualities and quantities are definitely audible. This is why I'd rather have a Mark Levinson, McIntosh, or Audio-Research amp, for example, than an Emotiva. But one pays their money and takes their choice. Within limits, you get what you pay for. But yes, if the marketing boys could save 10 cents on some copper wire, they WOULD do it provided that the amp still met its specs with the cheaper cord. Cordially - Boomzilla Boom, I could be incorrect with this. The, put out twice as much power in 4 ohm thing. I once read, if my old memory recalls. It was Bob Carver that said getting an amp to run twice the power in 4ohm is the holy grail and it is very difficult to achieve. Maybe Someone more tech savvy then I can chime in on that. When I read that schiists amp double power at 4ohm I was a little surprised. But like I said I may wrong. |
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Post by 405x5 on Dec 29, 2017 10:01:19 GMT -5
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Post by sahmen on Dec 29, 2017 10:05:27 GMT -5
And y'all all so worried about the external cable, but no one is going inside the case and replacing all the internal wiring with "magic cable". Why not? This is an easy one: because the one external cable can make a difference that is justifiable in its own right, and simple enough not to require the hassle of messing with internal wiring etc. etc.... * in the same way as changing a DAC or Pre-amp can alter the sound of an amp* without the necessity of altering anything else inside the amp. If you have tried linear power supplies, you will be amazed what big differences that some can make in transforming the sound of the source components to which they're attached, as compared to stock SMPS power supplies that originally come with such components... As for the old "whataboutism" about the wiring in the wall, or the internal wiring inside the components, and the difference they make or do not make, they have been rendered irrelevant by evidence anyone can verify if they care to...Get the right linear power supply for an applicable source component, or a power cable for your amp, and they'll make a difference that could surprise you, in spite of whatever wiring you have inside your walls, inside the powerlines from your neighborhood the feed your house, and in spite of the internal wiring of the components you're dealing with. Examples: Logitech Squeezebox Touch with an Uptone Audio LPS-1 Power supply or an S-Booster LPS instead of stock... A Microrendu or Ultrarendu network player or rendered with an Uptone Audio LPS-1, or Teddy Pardo LPS power supply instead of a SMPS Power supply...  In all these examples, the best way to resolve disagreements or skepticism is to try things for yourself... Seeing is believing... the Devil is in the details, but also YMMV |
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Post by copperpipe on Dec 29, 2017 11:41:19 GMT -5
And y'all all so worried about the external cable, but no one is going inside the case and replacing all the internal wiring with "magic cable". Why not? This is an easy one: because the one external cable can make a difference that is justifiable in its own right, and simple enough not to require the hassle of messing with internal wiring etc. etc.... * in the same way as changing a DAC or Pre-amp can alter the sound of an amp* without the necessity of altering anything else inside the amp. If you have tried linear power supplies, you will be amazed what big differences that some can make in transforming the sound of the source components to which they're attached, as compared to stock SMPS power supplies that originally come with such components... As for the old "whataboutism" about the wiring in the wall, or the internal wiring inside the components, and the difference they make or do not make, they have been rendered irrelevant by evidence anyone can verify if they care to...Get the right linear power supply for an applicable source component, or a power cable for your amp, and they'll make a difference that could surprise you, in spite of whatever wiring you have inside your walls, inside the powerlines from your neighborhood the feed your house, and in spite of the internal wiring of the components you're dealing with. Examples: Logitech Squeezebox Touch with an Uptone Audio LPS-1 Power supply or an S-Booster LPS instead of stock... A Microrendu or Ultrarendu network player or rendered with an Uptone Audio LPS-1, or Teddy Pardo LPS power supply instead of a SMPS Power supply... In all these examples, the best way to resolve disagreements or skepticism is to try things for yourself... Seeing is believing... the Devil is in the details, but also YMMV It's not "whataboutism", John Oliver, to point out that you're focusing on one tiny inconsequential part at the expense of all other parts in the system. This is not a DAC. This is not a power supply. This is 3 foot run of pure, copper cable. If it made even a tiny little difference, why in the world would Emotiva NOT offer a better cable?? It's a $1000+ amp, you think they don't have budget for an extra ten cents on some copper wire if it made even a possibility of a difference? You may as well upgrade the bolts in the silly thing too, in case they resonate a little less. |
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Post by copperpipe on Dec 29, 2017 11:44:46 GMT -5
In all these examples, the best way to resolve disagreements or skepticism is to try things for yourself... Seeing is believing... the Devil is in the details, but also YMMV Emphatically, NO. The best way to resolve these kinds of disagreements is to understand the science. And the science says that "copper is copper", and the only thing that's going to matter is if the gauge is sufficent. Which, it is. "Seeing" is subject to confirmation bias. You fine fellows never seem to leave room in your discussion for that little factor, nor offer any measurements to back up your statements. |
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Post by 405x5 on Dec 29, 2017 12:27:32 GMT -5
I replaced the power cord on my Emo SA-250 with a 7 gauge Pangea AC 9 SE power cord, and the difference in SQ was substantial enough to dissuade me from taking any more looks at the stock power cord. That stock power cord is now buried somewhere deep inside a box of discarded stock power cords; it is buried so deep that I doubt whether I could locate it again, were I to even try that, which I won't, unless I decide to sell that SA-250. However, in that case, any one of the discarded stock power cords would do, and one of them will ship with the sold SA-250, and I bet the buyer would be satisfied too, and none the wiser. But my SA-250 isn't going anywhere too soon. as I am not selling it, so all this speculation is just that, speculation. If you are skeptical, and you have an emo amp, or something comparable, and would *dare* to try out an inexpensive experiment with an open-mind, you could check out the Pangea AC 9 SE and see the results for yourself! What have you got to lose? If you do not like what you hear, or if you do not hear any difference, you could always resell the power cord very easily, and go back to enjoying the satisfaction of thinking that you have always been right about those damn power cables. However, if you do hear the difference (as I am sure you will, provided your hearing is unimpaired), and do enjoy it, you would have made an interesting discovery for which your ears and wallet will thank you... What is the harm in that? Talking about open minds, it has never ceased to amaze me how tenaciously and stubbornly some folks in this hobby can hold on to beliefs or opinions which they deem to have been "proven" conclusively by some "measurement," or set of measurements that they consider to be "scientific." Isn't "science" supposed to be founded on a spirit of open-ended experimentations in which "truths" held to be sacrosanct one day, may be completely debunked and/or falsified the next day...? Do the tenacity and stubbornness with which certain "skeptics" and "objectivists" hold to their opinions in audio not resemble sometimes the very "dogmatism" of fanatically held beliefs that is meant to belong in the province of religious practices? Well, I am not trying to re-kindle a tired firestorm here over one trivial experiment with a cable. I am just trying to share an experience that some may or may not find useful. Oh, and lest I forget : YMMV Happy New Year to all. Pangea AC 9 SE : Retail.......$175.00......(for an electrical cord ) nice to be rich...........two words that could help many in a quandary about where to invest from an electrical standpoint: LICENSED ELECTRICIAN Just ask one about replacing a 14 gauge for a 7 to connect a home amplifier. (You'll get more than a smile) An entire home service can be evaluated for less money than that and COULD uncover things like ground loop, or unsafe wiring or grounding, etc. The electrical contractor and the utility company meet outside, before the meter. If something is needed, other than your components and a circuit, the electrician is the best place to get your answer.....not in the business of exotica. Bill |
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Post by foggy1956 on Dec 29, 2017 12:42:14 GMT -5
In all these examples, the best way to resolve disagreements or skepticism is to try things for yourself... Seeing is believing... the Devil is in the details, but also YMMV Emphatically, NO. The best way to resolve these kinds of disagreements is to understand the science. And the science says that "copper is copper", and the only thing that's going to matter is if the gauge is sufficent. Which, it is. "Seeing" is subject to confirmation bias. You fine fellows never seem to leave room in your discussion for that little factor, nor offer any measurements to back up your statements. If you feed a 7 ga. cable with anything of smaller gauge doesn't it become irrelevent? |
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Post by sahmen on Dec 29, 2017 12:47:48 GMT -5
I replaced the power cord on my Emo SA-250 with a 7 gauge Pangea AC 9 SE power cord, and the difference in SQ was substantial enough to dissuade me from taking any more looks at the stock power cord. That stock power cord is now buried somewhere deep inside a box of discarded stock power cords; it is buried so deep that I doubt whether I could locate it again, were I to even try that, which I won't, unless I decide to sell that SA-250. However, in that case, any one of the discarded stock power cords would do, and one of them will ship with the sold SA-250, and I bet the buyer would be satisfied too, and none the wiser. But my SA-250 isn't going anywhere too soon. as I am not selling it, so all this speculation is just that, speculation. If you are skeptical, and you have an emo amp, or something comparable, and would *dare* to try out an inexpensive experiment with an open-mind, you could check out the Pangea AC 9 SE and see the results for yourself! What have you got to lose? If you do not like what you hear, or if you do not hear any difference, you could always resell the power cord very easily, and go back to enjoying the satisfaction of thinking that you have always been right about those damn power cables. However, if you do hear the difference (as I am sure you will, provided your hearing is unimpaired), and do enjoy it, you would have made an interesting discovery for which your ears and wallet will thank you... What is the harm in that? Talking about open minds, it has never ceased to amaze me how tenaciously and stubbornly some folks in this hobby can hold on to beliefs or opinions which they deem to have been "proven" conclusively by some "measurement," or set of measurements that they consider to be "scientific." Isn't "science" supposed to be founded on a spirit of open-ended experimentations in which "truths" held to be sacrosanct one day, may be completely debunked and/or falsified the next day...? Do the tenacity and stubbornness with which certain "skeptics" and "objectivists" hold to their opinions in audio not resemble sometimes the very "dogmatism" of fanatically held beliefs that is meant to belong in the province of religious practices? Well, I am not trying to re-kindle a tired firestorm here over one trivial experiment with a cable. I am just trying to share an experience that some may or may not find useful. Oh, and lest I forget : YMMV Happy New Year to all. Pangea AC 9 SE : Retail.......$175.00......(for an electrical cord ) nice to be rich...........two words that could help many in a quandary about where to invest from an electrical standpoint: LICENSED ELECTRICIAN Just ask one about replacing a 14 gauge for a 7 to connect a home amplifier. (You'll get more than a smile) An entire home service can be evaluated for less money than that and COULD uncover things like ground loop, or unsafe wiring or grounding, etc. The electrical contractor and the utility company meet outside, before the meter. If something is needed, other than your components and a circuit, the electrician is the best place to get your answer.....not in the business of exotica. Bill Now you're accusing me of being "rich"? What if I told you that I purchased my two meter Pangea AC 9 SE cable used from another lounger for $120?, and another used one from Amazon for $125.00...? Would I be less "guilty" of being "rich" if I tell you that they have enhanced the sound of my XPA-1 Gen 2s and SA-250 in rather idiosyncratic ways that are different from the enhancements that come from the far far more expensive pre-pro (XMC-1) and DAC (Schiit Yggy) that I also use in the same chain? As for being "rich," I do not think there is any court of law in the land that could ever find me guilty of that "felony," which reminds me again why these futile and pointless debates are my least favorite part of this hobby. In the meantime, a Happy New Year to you and your loved ones. |
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Post by 405x5 on Dec 29, 2017 13:19:39 GMT -5
Pangea AC 9 SE : Retail.......$175.00......(for an electrical cord ) nice to be rich...........two words that could help many in a quandary about where to invest from an electrical standpoint: LICENSED ELECTRICIAN Just ask one about replacing a 14 gauge for a 7 to connect a home amplifier. (You'll get more than a smile) An entire home service can be evaluated for less money than that and COULD uncover things like ground loop, or unsafe wiring or grounding, etc. The electrical contractor and the utility company meet outside, before the meter. If something is needed, other than your components and a circuit, the electrician is the best place to get your answer.....not in the business of exotica. Bill "Now you're accusing me of being "rich"? What if I told you that I purchased my two meter Pangea AC 9 SE cable used from another lounger for $120?, and another used one from Amazon for $125.00...?" I would say you paid "$245.00 too much. Bill |
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Post by sahmen on Dec 29, 2017 13:20:03 GMT -5
This is an easy one: because the one external cable can make a difference that is justifiable in its own right, and simple enough not to require the hassle of messing with internal wiring etc. etc.... * in the same way as changing a DAC or Pre-amp can alter the sound of an amp* without the necessity of altering anything else inside the amp. If you have tried linear power supplies, you will be amazed what big differences that some can make in transforming the sound of the source components to which they're attached, as compared to stock SMPS power supplies that originally come with such components... As for the old "whataboutism" about the wiring in the wall, or the internal wiring inside the components, and the difference they make or do not make, they have been rendered irrelevant by evidence anyone can verify if they care to...Get the right linear power supply for an applicable source component, or a power cable for your amp, and they'll make a difference that could surprise you, in spite of whatever wiring you have inside your walls, inside the powerlines from your neighborhood the feed your house, and in spite of the internal wiring of the components you're dealing with. Examples: Logitech Squeezebox Touch with an Uptone Audio LPS-1 Power supply or an S-Booster LPS instead of stock... A Microrendu or Ultrarendu network player or rendered with an Uptone Audio LPS-1, or Teddy Pardo LPS power supply instead of a SMPS Power supply... In all these examples, the best way to resolve disagreements or skepticism is to try things for yourself... Seeing is believing... the Devil is in the details, but also YMMV It's not "whataboutism", John Oliver, to point out that you're focusing on one tiny inconsequential part at the expense of all other parts in the system. This is not a DAC. This is not a power supply. This is 3 foot run of pure, copper cable. If it made even a tiny little difference, why in the world would Emotiva NOT offer a better cable?? It's a $1000+ amp, you think they don't have budget for an extra ten cents on some copper wire if it made even a possibility of a difference? You may as well upgrade the bolts in the silly thing too, in case they resonate a little less. I see we are not going to agree today, and that is perfectly okay with me. As for confirmation bias, I agree that it has not really bothered me, in this particular case, because I believe I have the ability, as many do, to be able to tell when a component or cable sounds mediocre, terrible, or just plain bad, in spite of my expectations. I really wouldn't need any science or measurements to tell me that. I expected to get better sound when upgrading from a Denon AVR to separates, and my expectations were more than confirmed, to my ears. Same thing happened when I went from an old LCD display to a Plasma, and ditto from a Plasma to an Oled 4k display with HDR. In all these cases, my "confirmation bias," did not disappoint or deceive me, so why should I let it bother me when it comes to a power cable whose performance I can demonstrate to myself empirically? If you like, I am more anxious about the possibility of an over preoccupation with "expectation or confirmation bias" becoming its own negative self-fulfilling prophecy and short-circuiting my willingness to experiment creatively with ideas and gear in the hobby... Hey I am a big fan of science, technology, and all the goodies they can bring... I hope that is obvious, and self-evident. Except that, I am also aware of their limitations when it comes to determining what exactly should sound good or not to my ears. When it comes to "understanding the science," I suppose it all depends on what one is calling "understanding," and how much of the "science" that powers "audio technology" and electronics can be "understood" by a layman such as myself... When it comes to cables, and familiar motifs of this debate, such as, "copper is copper," I can personally understand the basics about notions such as "inductance," "capacitance," "resistance," levels or metal purity etc, etc., but they hardly ever begin to answer the questions I have about their effects on sound, since those just make up the tip of the ice-berg (if that) of the science and technology that power audio, which makes me wonder how much "understanding" one needs to get before one can make reasonable choices about cables and components for oneself... Ultimately, I have to let my ears be my guide... Oh, and "John Oliver"? Seriously...? Have a happy new year. |
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Post by johnnyd70 on Dec 29, 2017 13:31:01 GMT -5
As a life-long musician who’s recorded multiple albums in several professional recording studios I can tell you that, for the most part, there are no cables used that would remotely be considered exotic. If it’s in good working condition it’s put to use. I use my own cables for instrument lines (1/4 “ mono and XLR), nothing more that can’t be found at any music store and not once did I ever have an engineer scoff at what I was using. Point is, if it’s good enough for the production process, you’ll get no better results buying expensive cables as long as they are being used as designed.
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Post by copperpipe on Dec 29, 2017 13:34:47 GMT -5
Oh, and "John Oliver"? Seriously...? Have a happy new year. I generally like the discussion and focus he brings, but he can be a little, uh, "over the top" in some cases. Ever since his recent "whataboutism" episode, every teen on reddit has been throwing it about like candy in a day care. In this case, though, my "whataboutism" is perfectly valid; since there are wires both before and after a tiny little 3 foot section of cable that nobody cares about. So the question: what about all the other wires in the entire system, from nuclear/hyrdo/coal power plant to speaker cone? You also have a good holiday and new year. |
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KeithL
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Post by KeithL on Dec 29, 2017 15:03:29 GMT -5
As usual - everybody is oversimplifying just a bit. For example, the engineers DO specify the power cord that each unit needs in order to meet its design and performance requirements. And the marketing guys aren't going to be allowed to specify a lower quality cord that will compromise the performance just to save a few bucks. In fact, it's the marketing guys who are most likely to specify a more expensive cord, even though the engineers are sure it won't make any difference - because it might impress a few customers. And, yes, if we really could make the amp sound better for $20, we'd do it. (Note that it only counts if most of our customers actually hear an improvement there.) HOWEVER, if only 1% of our customers thought it sounded better, and nobody was willing to pay us the extra $20, then it wouldn't make sense for us to do it. The fact is that most of the engineers here are pretty sure that, under most circumstances, changing the power cords on our units isn't going to make them sound better. And, to be honest, most of the few customers who think it will would prefer to either select or build their own power cable anyway. (If we spend an extra $20 to put a fancier cord on it - they'll just go out and upgrade it anyway.) Obviously, almost every product sold is subject to cost constraints (if not I'd be typing this on a solid gold keyboard right now; it probably wouldn't work as well, but gold sure is pretty). However, the other side of that coin is that not all "premium" parts are actually better... The reality is that most premium parts are actually better in some ways - and equal, or even worse, in others. And, when it comes to audiophile tweaks, many of the so-called "premium upgrades" are actually not better at all, and some are even worse. It's really the MARKETING guys who work for the companies who make those premium parts who are working to convince you that they ALWAYS improve things. (And they'd love to convince us to use those premium parts in all our products "just because it will impress our customers".) Do you really want to pay extra for an amplifier that can deliver twice it's 8 Ohm rating into 4 Ohms? If you really value that particular ability, enough to pay extra for it, we'll be glad to set that as another design parameter for our amps. (Note that nobody's promising it will sound any different.) Incidentally, in the past several years, I've had a chance to listen to several McIntosh systems... And to speak to three or four people who've had an opportunity to compare McIntosh gear to our gear in various settings... Interestingly, the general consensus has been that the Emotive gear sounded at east equal - and sometimes better - when compared to the McIntosh gear. (I don't recall a single claim that the McIntosh gear sounded better than ours.) So I guess a lot of it is just a matter of priorities. Ah, copperpipe - You're an optimist... The design engineers don't really get to spec the power cable (or much of anything else). The marketing boys do. They're the one who want the amp to meet a target price so that they can sell the most at the greatest profit. The qualities of most EVERYTHING in the amp (including the power cord) are subject to cost constraints. This means that if a cost-compromise is proposed that will affect only 1% of the purchasers, the cheaper part is used every single time. So your amp won't actually exceed its specs due to the limits of the power cord or heat sinks (for example)? The marketing boys don't care - and they have the final say. Now the hypothetical case above is highly unlikely - power cords are cheap. But the principle is sound for EVERY phase of component design. Why don't Emotiva amps have half-inch-thick solid milled aluminum faceplates like some "high-end" amps? Cost. Why don't Emotiva amps use name-brand exotic parts like some of the "super-amps?" Cost. Why don't Emotiva amps run much cooler due to their adequate-but-marginal heat sinks? Cost. Why can't Emotiva amps put out twice their wattage into four-ohm loads? Cost. Why don't Emotiva amps use the jewelry-like, heavy-metal speaker connectors that some other expensive amps use? Cost. Now some of the cost compromises (chassis and power cords for example) probably don't really affect the sound at all, which is why Emotiva can compete with many amps that cost more. But some of those compromises - particularly in resistor, transformer, heat-sink, and capacitor qualities and quantities are definitely audible. This is why I'd rather have a Mark Levinson, McIntosh, or Audio-Research amp, for example, than an Emotiva. But one pays their money and takes their choice. Within limits, you get what you pay for. But yes, if the marketing boys could save 10 cents on some copper wire, they WOULD do it provided that the amp still met its specs with the cheaper cord. Cordially - Boomzilla Boom, I could be incorrect with this. The, put out twice as much power in 4 ohm thing. I once read, if my old memory recalls. It was Bob Carver that said getting an amp to run twice the power in 4ohm is the holy grail and it is very difficult to achieve. Maybe Someone more tech savvy then I can chime in on that. When I read that schiists amp double power at 4ohm I was a little surprised. But like I said I may wrong. |
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KeithL
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Post by KeithL on Dec 29, 2017 15:30:16 GMT -5
I'm just going to throw a fact out there.... in a perfectly neutral sort of way....
Confirmation bias tends to act most strongly, and in a way which is least easy to detect, when evaluating small or nonexistent differences.
A confirmation bias is unlikely to cause you not to notice an obvious real difference between two things.
A confirmation bias is MOST likely to manifest itself as a perceived difference between two things which are really the same.
To use the classic example of wine......
Confirmation bias is not at all likely to cause you to believe that a $100 bottle of wine and a $5 bottle taste the same when you compare them.
Confirmation bias is MOST likely to cause you to imagine you taste a difference between two bottles, each with a different price tag, but filled with the same wine.
If you actually taste a difference - confirmation bias is most unlikely to override what you tasted.
However, if you FAIL to taste any difference, confirmation bias is quite likely to provide you with a vague sort of "tie breaker" that allows you to imagine a difference.
The ONLY way to reliably avoid this effect would be to have a friend switch the cables (and sometimes not switch them).....
Then you have no expectation whatsoever that there will or won't be a difference.
(Nobody is immune from expectation bias.)
Doing it that way also includes a sort of "informal sanity check".
If there really is a significant difference, I would expect it to be obvious, and to notice it nearly 100% of the time.
(If you have to listen really carefully to hear it, and still sometimes miss it, then I guess it's pretty minor.....)
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KeithL
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Post by KeithL on Dec 29, 2017 15:48:30 GMT -5
Geez..... Next you'll be saying something like: "If the studio that recorded the album you're listening to was wired with $.50 a foot Canare StarQuad cable, then what difference would using premium interconnects on YOUR system be likely to make?" I'm inclined to go with the expanded version of what you said...... The best way to figure out what's going on is to trust the science. If someone makes a claim that seems to contradict the science, then that claim is extraordinary, and it's up to them to prove it. And, if proof is in order, a properly designed double-blind test is usually the only reliable way to go about it. I would also point out, however, that there are certain minimum requirements for power cables - which obviously vary depending on the equipment involved. A power cable that is INSUFFICIENT to the task can certainly compromise performance. (One of our big amps wouldn't work very well if you connected it to a long 18 gauge power cable.) And, if that's the case, then replacing that cable with one that is APPROPRIATE to the task may in fact improve matters - by eliminating the problem. It's POSSIBLE that, under certain very specific conditions, that 7 gauge cord could make a slight difference. However, the odds of that situation occurring in a normal home audio installation are pretty slim. (And munching a charcoal briquet could save your life - if you'd just been poisoned - but it's not something I recommend with breakfast.) Emphatically, NO. The best way to resolve these kinds of disagreements is to understand the science. And the science says that "copper is copper", and the only thing that's going to matter is if the gauge is sufficent. Which, it is. "Seeing" is subject to confirmation bias. You fine fellows never seem to leave room in your discussion for that little factor, nor offer any measurements to back up your statements. If you feed a 7 ga. cable with anything of smaller gauge doesn't it become irrelevent? |
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Post by Boomzilla on Dec 29, 2017 15:55:05 GMT -5
As usual - everybody is oversimplifying just a bit. For example, the engineers DO specify the power cord that each unit needs in order to meet its design and performance requirements. Agreed. Unless you're using the amps in a stage environment with lighting & RF galore, the stock (unshielded) cords are perfectly adequate. In fact, the stock cords are still adequate even in that stage environment if the equipment is in a compact rack. But if there's a 150 foot extension cord, some shielding (mostly on that extension) may (or may not) be called for. ...And, yes, if we really could make the amp sound better for $20, we'd do it. (Note that it only counts if most of our customers actually hear an improvement there.) HOWEVER, if only 1% of our customers thought it sounded better, and nobody was willing to pay us the extra $20, then it wouldn't make sense for us to do it. And here's where I think that YOU may be oversimplifying just a bit, Keith. $20 each added to the production cost of a LOT of amps comes up to BIG money. It would change the amp's price point. The crux of the matter is your statement "if most of our customers actually hear an improvement there" (emphasis added). My point is that you have no way of knowing whether "most" of your customers would hear that $20 improvement or not - you can't give each a sample with & without the improvement & ask. Therefore, you (Emotiva employees & homeboys) are the ones actually making those decisions - NOT the customers. And you all have (like me) a significant amount of grey in your hair, so the question arises - how good is your hearing? Is it a company requirement that those who do auditions take an annual audiogram? Is there a threshold of hearing that must be met before your opinion is counted in the "spend the $20 or not" vote? I honestly doubt it. I also take exception to your "if only 1% of our customers thought it sounded better..." statement. If a consistent 1% can pick out the $20 improvement in double-blind testing, then there IS a difference. Not a difference of expectation bias or any psychological factors but an AUDIBLE difference. Is the difference worth $20? Hard to say. But if 1% hear it consistently, then maybe 25 or even 50% might think that it sounds better without being able to articulate why or how. Would they be wiling to pay more for the better sounding amp? Emotiva will never know. ...However, the other side of that coin is that not all "premium" parts are actually better... True - but a lower ripple, higher current power supply is BETTER (not debatable). Heat sinks that have reserve capacity are BETTER (not debatable). Enough output devices to handle low-impedance loads and odd phase angles without overheating are BETTER (not debatable). So although you may have a point with SOME "premium" parts, you have no leg to stand on with others. ...Incidentally, in the past several years, I've had a chance to listen to several McIntosh systems... And to speak to three or four people who've had an opportunity to compare McIntosh gear to our gear in various settings... Interestingly, the general consensus has been that the Emotive gear sounded at east equal - and sometimes better - when compared to the McIntosh gear. (I don't recall a single claim that the McIntosh gear sounded better than ours.) So I guess a lot of it is just a matter of priorities. i'd agree that SOME Emotiva gear sounds as good as McIntosh. I'd even agree that with specific speakers, one could find a situation where an Emotiva amp could sound audibly and consistently better than the Mac (not all speakers like transformer-coupled outputs). But 20, 30, 40, or even 50 years from now, it's likely (IMHO) that the McIntosh gear will still meet its factory specs. I'd bet against the Emotiva gear doing so. The "durability factor" is why the Mac gear commands a premium price (both new and used). Many disagree with me on this, but the used Mac gear I've had was (for the most part) functioning "like new," regardless of age. Happy New Year to you & yours! Boom |
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Post by leonski on Dec 29, 2017 18:56:17 GMT -5
![]() ![]() Comparing to MC might not be the best comparison. MC, to me, has a distinct 'house sound' which some don't enjoy. |
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Post by 405x5 on Dec 29, 2017 19:19:36 GMT -5
![]() ![]() Comparing to MC might not be the best comparison. MC, to me, has a distinct 'house sound' which some don't enjoy. Yes! I didn’t like the house 🏡 sound either. So, I brought it over to the apartment and use it there..... SOUNDS GREAT 👍 Bill |
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Post by leonski on Dec 29, 2017 20:47:50 GMT -5
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