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Post by foggy1956 on Dec 31, 2017 9:26:06 GMT -5
If your voltage is on the low side, the larger cable (larger than what is in your walls) may aid in minimizing additional voltage drop. No it won't |
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Post by mgbpuff on Dec 31, 2017 9:29:06 GMT -5
If your voltage is on the low side, the larger cable (larger than what is in your walls) may aid in minimizing additional voltage drop. No it won't Fact - It may be pretty damn small, but it (voltage drop) WILL be less!!!! |
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LCSeminole
Global Moderator 
Res firma mitescere nescit.
Posts: 20,858
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Post by LCSeminole on Dec 31, 2017 9:58:53 GMT -5
Why is it that I never see a post about an aftermarket power cable making said component sound worse?
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Post by sahmen on Dec 31, 2017 10:26:04 GMT -5
Why is it that I never see a post about an aftermarket power cable making said component sound worse? Because it hurts when it does, especially if you have spent a little more than you would normally do for it... At any rate, I did purchase a couple of mega-gauge power cords from a Chinese outfit on e-bay, whose sound I did not particularly care for... They've gone into that same box where my retired stock cables currently reside... It's the same for a set of XLR interconnects I purchased from Anticables, which were widely reputed to be WoW!, but turned out to sound rather meh! in my own rig. I don't think I am breaking any kind of record by reporting this, as I am sure this experience is not unique to me... On another note, and as a general rule, I typically like reporting my happier experiences with the gear in audio, because "success" is normally more fun to report, but I also do that out of the expectation that others might find such reports useful (barring the hardcore skeptics and cynics, of course  ) Incidentally, it is also why I am not too afraid of being fooled by any "confirmation bias", at least in most cases. I have got a set of very finicky and hard to please ears that won't tolerate things that sound worse than I what I am already familiar with... especially for music... My expectations are always in play, of course, but the rule is simple, if it sounds worse, it gets no play time.... And I am not merely talking cables here... I could give you a whole list of source components (Dacs, Cd-players, computers etc. etc), and others that no longer get any play time on account of disappointing my ears, in spite of prior high expectations, but that might derail the thread, so I'll leave that for another day. I am not bragging about "my ears," though, mind you. This finickiness can be costly, not to mention tormenting  |
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Post by lehighvalleyjeff on Dec 31, 2017 12:15:32 GMT -5
Why is it that I never see a post about an aftermarket power cable making said component sound worse? Because it hurts when it does, especially if you have spent a little more than you would normally do for it... At any rate, I did purchase a couple of mega-gauge power cords from a Chinese outfit on e-bay, whose sound I did not particularly care for... They've gone into that same box where my retired stock cables currently reside... It's the same for a set of XLR interconnects I purchased from Anticables, which were widely reputed to be WoW!, but turned out to sound rather meh! in my own rig. I don't think I am breaking any kind of record by reporting this, as I am sure this experience is not unique to me... On another note, and as a general rule, I typically like reporting my happier experiences with the gear in audio, because "success" is normally more fun to report, but I also do that out of the expectation that others might find such reports useful (barring the hardcore skeptics and cynics, of course ) Incidentally, it is also why I am not too afraid of being fooled by any "confirmation bias", at least in most cases. I have got a set of very finicky and hard to please ears that won't tolerate things that sound worse than I what I am already familiar with... especially for music... My expectations are always in play, of course, but the rule is simple, if it sounds worse, it gets no play time.... And I am not merely talking cables here... I could give you a whole list of source components (Dacs, Cd-players, computers etc. etc), and others that no longer get any play time on account of disappointing my ears, in spite of prior high expectations, but that might derail the thread, so I'll leave that for another day. I am not bragging about "my ears," though, mind you. This finickiness can be costly, not to mention tormenting I might share your finicky ear syndrome here as well but for power cords that failed (made the sound worse to my ears) there is quite a list including NRG from Audioquest, both Powerline 200 & 300 from Monster Cable and not sure of the name of the lesser priced AudioQuest that degraded the sound quality. |
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Post by DavidR on Dec 31, 2017 12:49:51 GMT -5
If its bigger it can store extra energy and give the fat electrons more room so they dont rub each other and cause static. Yeah, exactly and with all that extra copper some electrons might get lost in the fray.  |
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Post by emoticon on Dec 31, 2017 12:55:37 GMT -5
Why is it that I never see a post about an aftermarket power cable making said component sound worse? Cognitive dissonance. |
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Post by 405x5 on Dec 31, 2017 13:00:34 GMT -5
Well, once again, wires (any) in a properly configured audio system do not alter the sound in any way, unless they are the WRONG wires; resistance too high due to smaller than required gauge, lack of proper grounding, poor shielding, (if, where and when needed).
You can do more to change the sound in a music room by simply relocating a chair, and not putting it back, creating a reflective (or absorbing) surface, altering what ends up at the “sweet spot”.
Bill
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Post by Talley on Dec 31, 2017 13:05:55 GMT -5
Wow lots of stuff being thrown around here. I've done alot of research on this and I've also put my own .02 in the past on this topic so let me share my "know it all" beliefs. DISCLAIMER: I AM A TEXAS STATE LICENSED MASTER ELECTRICIAN. I AM NOT AN ENGINEER BUT MY KNOWLEDGE WITH OHMS LAW, CAPACITANCE, INDUCTANCE, GROUNDING, SHIELDING, POWER DELIVERY ARE ALL TO CODE, AND CONTAINS FACTS. 1. MetalsCords DO make a difference: Go use an aluminum cord... or have a custom cord made out of pure gold wire... or pure silver.... or steel. Ya try steel. As long as the electrical properties match for that wire conductor within that cable to the specs you need you can do that.... but there is a reason why copper is chosen more often than not. It's excellent electrical properties means it's for power delivery and also audio delivery. Take a look at this: www.engineeringtoolbox.com/sound-speed-solids-d_713.htmlCopper and Silver are among the best sound velocity ratings... but we aren't talking sound transmission here... we are talking electrical properties which is what we are doing... we are taking electrical power from the generator and are transmitting this through power grids through many devices and is manipulated into many voltages back and forth multiple times until it gets to your home where it is then transformed into 120/240v (usa) split single phase and then is delivered to your equipment and then you have your equipment that takes that power and amplifies it with a given input source (cd, vinyls, etc) and then sends it to your speakers = all AC waveform. So since we are talking about electrical properties of materials: www.tibtech.com/conductivity.phpSilver has the best conductivity of any material available. Next is copper. The problem is copper is not a good material for longevity (think plugs where it gets abused with prongs alot) it needs to be coated also to resist oxidation. You can create an alloy of Beryllium copper and this gives it one of the best available but it will still corrode with air... ever see exposed copper after a few months or years... it's dark and dirty and it loses it's electrical properties. However look at brass... brass is the most common material found in plug connectors and receptacles. Brass is excellent for these items though since it's more durable than copper and/or silver. So it's a trade off. You want the best properties then go pure silver... but properties doesn't mean sound quality.
2. Wiring constructionYour standard romex wire installation found in most homes are POOR cable choices for anything really. I don't like it, hate it... it's junk... but it's fine for "mass of regular people needs". For anything on an engineering side, audio side, etc... it's junk. I wouldn't use the stuff. Why?... It's a parallel feeder. It's hot and neutral run parallel with a ground conductor in the middle. Over long runs this will cause inductance of voltage onto the ground wire... any induced voltage on the ground wire is the source for most peoples hums/hiss problems. Romex is made with PVC insulation on the PVC and the outer jacket is PVC also. PVC is a poor dielectric. Why does this matter? Poor dielectric insulation increases capacitance on the cable conductor itself and this increases the resistance value of the cable. THIS is measurable. XLPE or cross linked polyethylene insulation is a much better insulation so is teflon but XLPE and/or the type of Polyolefin insulation another type of XLPE are great dielectrics and reduce the capacitance injected back into the cable.... meaning lower resistance. Another thing about running XLPE type cables is they will come twisted and/or shielded... which shielding itself is a topic I'd rather stay off of now because nobody gets it right except the studio guys or the live guys at concerts... they know how to do it right. Twisting the cable removes any chance of inducing voltage. In the petrochemical world we use shielding and twisted cables to prevent any induction of any kind. 3. Cable Size - circuit designWhen it comes to power cable size does matter. Take anything that powers... it draws current. Current over length caused voltage drop. Why do you need "voltage stabilizers, power conditioners?... because most homes are made with 14awg or 12awg cable. You have a typical distance from panel to outlet distance of around 40-50' for most homes... some maybe shorter some maybe longer. It's easy math to determine the voltage drop. Lets say you have an amplifier, take a normal 5 channel 200w rated all channel driven amplifer. It may suck as much as 1500w peak if your playing reference. 1500w/120v = 12.5a... BUT this is not going to be sustained, believe me you would fry your components if it was. BUT at that instant of power draw you will experience milliseconds worth typically 250-700ms of peak current demand and at that peak demand on a typical home feeder of say 20a circuit using #12awg at 50 feet you will get 2% voltage drop... or 2.4v loss.. = 117.6v. Now this is why equipment has capacitors so it can deliver that instant power requirement... but maybe not all equipment has enough for the demand you need? Now lets say that same 50' 20a feeder was with #8awg cable... seems excessive for a simple 50' run right? Well.... using #8awg in that exact situation now you only get a .8% voltage drop or about .96v of drop= 119.1v is the lowest you will drop to. How does this make a difference? It makes a huge difference... those power conditioners have regulators built in them to compensate for that.... because of poor power delivery! If you had adequate feeders you wouldn't need them right?... well kinda maybe not really not sure because of dc offset filtering and other garbage introduced on the power lines. An amplifier and your equipment is taking all that voltage... trying to maintain itself a stable voltage through regulators built in and in the end what goes in must come out... the more stable your power delivery is to your system the easier it is for your system to operate. I have a dedicated 20a circuit to my amp and it's 65' from the panel and I ran it with #4awg cable. I only see around .3v drop at any given moment IF I hit peak draw. Again... we are talking dynamics. If your equipment doesn't have enough design to capture those instant dynamics then your power delivery design will cause issues. 4. Power cables (wall to device)
Same thing above applies but typically cables are 3'-6' in length. A good 14awg-10awg cable is all that is needed. However the perfect design cable would be one that has the hot and neutral twisted together and the ground wire ran straight along with it. I've done this myself and had no outer insulation. Copper connectors would be ideal, but many are brass... some audiophile grade are copper and/or silver and they would make a difference... I could ramble on and on... BUT HOW MUCH OF THIS IS MEASURABLE IN THE SOUND.... would be all up to the system we are discussing and the listener. Cheap bose system would not benefit from this.... high end system with 20,000 dollar speakers that reveal everything from the power station grid to your wall to your cord to your equipment to your interconnects to your speaker cable to the speakers.... it could reveal any problems you have easily. Power cables can and will make a difference that is measurable. The sonic impact is one we simply cannot measure. However one should consider all aspects of a system for proper installation. Also... want to know why studios use regular cables? Oh... main reason is they use big 25kva-75kva isolation transformers and all of their power delivery to the equipment is well thought out and the grounding is precisely done to eliminate any voltage on the ground system and they have very clean power delivery. Once you have clean power delivery = downstream matters less just as long as everything crosses at 90s and distance is maintained between power cables and interconnects/mic cables and nothing is coiled but is figure 8 coiled. My belief: Fix it at the source. I'm working on a 60v/60v split single phase 120v system through a 15kva isolation transformer for my system. My power system I'm working on now:  |
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Post by DavidR on Dec 31, 2017 13:15:22 GMT -5
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Post by 405x5 on Dec 31, 2017 13:16:43 GMT -5
“Power cables can and will make a difference that is measurable. The sonic impact is one we simply cannot measure. However one should consider all aspects of a system for proper installation.“
I agree.... this is something used by some of the snake oil outfits.
Manufacturing wires that have differences that ARE measurable however inaudible,
Gives them a platform to sell a false claim.
Bill
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Post by Talley on Dec 31, 2017 13:55:49 GMT -5
“Power cables can and will make a difference that is measurable. The sonic impact is one we simply cannot measure. However one should consider all aspects of a system for proper installation.“ I agree.... this is something used by some of the snake oil outfits. Manufacturing wires that have differences that ARE measurable however inaudible, Gives them a platform to sell a false claim. Bill But the way I see it is your power delivery from panel to outlet is 90% of the sonics over some small 3'-6' cord. I understand not everyone has the luxury of dedicated installations like I did for me with properly sized cable but power delivery has a significant impact on the system. I've ran battle scenes at -5db on my system and my entire system is at 25A peaks for all my equipment. Sustained was in the 7-12a range. Not enough to trip breakers but enough to put a massive strain on the small wiring people have. |
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Post by Talley on Dec 31, 2017 13:57:49 GMT -5
If your voltage is on the low side, the larger cable (larger than what is in your walls) may aid in minimizing additional voltage drop. False. No different than 12g wire to a plug in your home with a 16awg cord to a lamp. That short 3-5' distance has little affect. The biggest thing about power cables is keeping them isolated from other cables and only cross at 90°. People who tie them all together are only asking for problems. Their system will be full of hissing. |
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Post by Talley on Dec 31, 2017 13:59:01 GMT -5
Agree! Too many know-it-alls...... I'm a Master Electrician. It's my job to know power. IF you have any questions feel free to ask. |
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Post by Talley on Dec 31, 2017 14:04:20 GMT -5
What sense does it make to put a wire that can handle a 30 amp load with connector ends only rated for 15 amps? Makes no sense. Snake oil. I have 8 circuits feeding my rack. 1. Amp - 20 amp breaker - #2awg wire feeder 2. Subwoofer 1 - 20 amp breaker - #8awg wire feeder 3. Subwoofer 2 - 20 amp breaker - #8awg wire feeder 4. Processor - 20 amp breaker - #8awg wire feeder 5. Bluray Player - 20 amp breaker - #10awg wire feeder 6. Power Strip for misc (firetv, echo, etc) - 20 amp breaker - #10awg wire feeder 7. Spare - 20 amp breaker - #10awg wire feeder 8. 5 Port Network Switch - 15 amp breaker - #15awg wire feeder It's called voltage drop and it's industry standard you do the math on what you need and expect and you size the feeder cable to that. What you need to do is pigtail/reduce the size of the cable at the termination. My amp has a big feeder.. I wanted less than .5% drop and I got it. Thats called engineering/design. I designed it that way. It's what I wanted... or should I say needed  |
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Post by socketman on Dec 31, 2017 14:28:04 GMT -5
Talley, what benefit does this 60v/60v split suppose to provide. For years and years you could put a plug in a wall either way and now one lug is larger than the other, so we have a hot , a neutral and a ground . It seems your going back to the old way ?
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Post by Talley on Dec 31, 2017 14:36:34 GMT -5
Talley, what benefit does this 60v/60v split suppose to provide. For years and years you could put a plug in a wall either way and now one lug is larger than the other, so we have a hot , a neutral and a ground . It seems your going back to the old way ? Eliminates common mode noise. It's the standard in power delivery in recording studios... Some more info although technical can be found here: www.equitech.com/articles/bpng.htmlwww.computeraudiophile.com/forums/topic/5307-building-a-balanced-power-system/I haven't fully installed my transformer yet and it's a standard single phase transformer but the way I'm wiring it up will be 60v/60v with the center tap being the neutral which won't be needed but will be grounded. Here's where it sits now waiting for me to fool around with it more. My audio panel is on the left.  |
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Post by Talley on Dec 31, 2017 14:38:40 GMT -5
I have plans of changing up my entire feeder system. I already have XLPE type wiring in place. Just gonna eliminate the panel with the breakers and come right off the meter into the transformer and straight to a panel behind my rack.
By regenerating the power source on the isolation transformer my entire power system starts the secondary coils on the transformer itself. It won't matter whats on the grid side, home side, etc... I will have isolated power.
But more importantly my grounding will be done properly to eliminate any loops.
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Post by socketman on Dec 31, 2017 14:54:19 GMT -5
Just like a car guy only for electricity. Us car guys cant leave sh** alone LOL but it does spill over into audio for me as well. Never been to school for electricity but after 40 yrs as a laymen you learn a few things. Did Emo give you the thumbs up to run the XMC-1 like this. I used to live in an old house that had knob and tube and the owner put in a new breaker box, i opened the area where the old panel was and they had connected romex to the old wiring with wire nuts. One outlet in my living room just up and stopped working one day. Electrician came and just shook his head, he Maguivered it but it made me uncomfortable. I now own my house which is about 20 years old, what a difference for my audio system no more humming etc, big step up.
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Post by MusicHead on Dec 31, 2017 15:05:34 GMT -5
Talley, what benefit does this 60v/60v split suppose to provide. For years and years you could put a plug in a wall either way and now one lug is larger than the other, so we have a hot , a neutral and a ground . It seems your going back to the old way ? Eliminates common mode noise. It's the standard in power delivery in recording studios... Some more info although technical can be found here: www.equitech.com/articles/bpng.htmlwww.computeraudiophile.com/forums/topic/5307-building-a-balanced-power-system/I haven't fully installed my transformer yet and it's a standard single phase transformer but the way I'm wiring it up will be 60v/60v with the center tap being the neutral which won't be needed but will be grounded. Here's where it sits now waiting for me to fool around with it more. My audio panel is on the left. View AttachmentClever, the power equivalent of differential vs single ended for audio signals. |
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