klinemj
Emo VIPs 
Official Emofest Scribe
Posts: 15,088
|
Post by klinemj on Dec 31, 2017 15:57:18 GMT -5
Where's the data on cryogenic-treated unobtainium? I paid extra for that...wondering how much it helped. Mark |
|
|
|
Post by leonski on Dec 31, 2017 16:17:05 GMT -5
“Power cables can and will make a difference that is measurable. The sonic impact is one we simply cannot measure. However one should consider all aspects of a system for proper installation.“ I agree.... this is something used by some of the snake oil outfits. Manufacturing wires that have differences that ARE measurable however inaudible, Gives them a platform to sell a false claim. Bill It is a historical fact that stuff people heard in 1930 and couldn't account for LATER became a standard measure. The original SONY CD player had ONE DAC which was time-shared between channels. Measured fine. But sounded so awful that it was withdrawn from market to be replaced by a player with one DAC per channel. To think that we have reached the 'limit' of measurement is sheer hubris. The next frontier of measurment might even involve somehow tapping into the brain to see response or even immersion in a Schumann Resonance field. The cool part of this is WE DON'T know where this may or may Not lead. |
|
|
|
Post by RichGuy on Dec 31, 2017 17:07:07 GMT -5
Yes, many people falsely believe gold is the best or one of the best because of its wide spread use of plating on connectors but the reason for this is corrosion protection, gold is not that great of a conductor but it is excellent corrosion protection. While silver is the best conductor (though very expensive) followed very closely by copper. Both copper and silver are highly corrosive though so gold plating is often used for corrosion protection. Cable design twisted pair etc., wire material, insulation/shielding and quality do have an effect on the final sound quality. Cables can have an affect on the unwanted noise (noise floor), detail, harshness (brightness), warmth or neutrality. The biggest thing about power cables is keeping them isolated from other cables and only cross at 90°. People who tie them all together are only asking for problems. Their system will be full of hissing. Exactly, which is why I manage my cables by keeping them the proper length (no excess cable) and I keep my cables organized by type keeping power cables together, interconnects together and speaker cables together and keeping these three types separated from one another. I use one side of my rack for power cables, the other side side for interconnects and run my speaker cables in the middle.  |
|
|
|
Post by socketman on Dec 31, 2017 17:18:39 GMT -5
That must be one hella big step down transformer. Thing is audio equipment already takes care of all this with its own power supply and capacitors but i digress i havent tried your way so i may never know if it is worth the effort.
|
|
|
|
Post by leonski on Dec 31, 2017 17:44:26 GMT -5
My small (400va) isolation transformer helps low current and digital gear. I run in 'balanced' mode.
|
|
|
|
Post by socketman on Dec 31, 2017 17:46:28 GMT -5
I could see being concerned about pre Pro's and DAC's so they send a clean signal before its amplified but i think most amps are well engineered and have safeguards in place.?
|
|
|
|
Post by leonski on Dec 31, 2017 17:51:51 GMT -5
because entry point for 'noise' is multiple, I can't answer that. Noise can come in on ANY wired connection, be it power or interconnect or even 'over the air' in the form of some kind of RFI.
I sometimes pick up a local AM station on a filling. I want my Dentist to shave some metal off it so I might be able to raise the frequency and get a better station (I don't like sports / talk).
|
|
|
|
Post by socketman on Dec 31, 2017 17:54:25 GMT -5
Back in the day, alternators was crazy noisy and trying to keep that out of the audio was difficult. Technology has come a long way, and my hearing sadly has gone the other way. Maybe those filling explain the voices in my head, would rather pick up metallica.
|
|
|
|
Post by 405x5 on Dec 31, 2017 18:12:38 GMT -5
“Power cables can and will make a difference that is measurable. The sonic impact is one we simply cannot measure. However one should consider all aspects of a system for proper installation.“ I agree.... this is something used by some of the snake oil outfits. Manufacturing wires that have differences that ARE measurable however inaudible, Gives them a platform to sell a false claim. Bill But the way I see it is your power delivery from panel to outlet is 90% of the sonics over some small 3'-6' cord. I understand not everyone has the luxury of dedicated installations like I did for me with properly sized cable but power delivery has a significant impact on the system. I've ran battle scenes at -5db on my system and my entire system is at 25A peaks for all my equipment. Sustained was in the 7-12a range. Not enough to trip breakers but enough to put a massive strain on the small wiring people have. I’m gonna take a wild stab at this and say....YOU LIKE IT LOUD.......no?? Bill |
|
|
|
Post by mgbpuff on Dec 31, 2017 18:15:48 GMT -5
If your voltage is on the low side, the larger cable (larger than what is in your walls) may aid in minimizing additional voltage drop. False. No different than 12g wire to a plug in your home with a 16awg cord to a lamp. That short 3-5' distance has little affect. The biggest thing about power cables is keeping them isolated from other cables and only cross at 90°. People who tie them all together are only asking for problems. Their system will be full of hissing. Come on! It is not FALSE, please. The law of distributed impedance in wire does not change just because it is me that espouses it. Now, the reduced impedance may be insignificant, but reduced nevertheless; so my statement is true. |
|
|
|
Post by rbk123 on Dec 31, 2017 19:10:11 GMT -5
Why is it that I never see a post about an aftermarket power cable making said component sound worse? The same reason you never see a post where after "speaker break-in" the speaker sounds worse. Both are batting a perfect thousand. |
|
|
|
Post by Talley on Dec 31, 2017 19:12:31 GMT -5
I’m gonna take a wild stab at this and say....YOU LIKE IT LOUD.......no?? Bill What?!?! |
|
|
|
Post by Talley on Dec 31, 2017 19:13:53 GMT -5
I could see being concerned about pre Pro's and DAC's so they send a clean signal before its amplified but i think most amps are well engineered and have safeguards in place.? You think engineers can predict what kind of power quality you have coming in? Let me tell you how they engineer. Input -> 120vac -> power supply -> output -> X voltages they need. Thats it. Thats the reason the power conditioner market exists |
|
|
|
Post by lehighvalleyjeff on Dec 31, 2017 19:18:23 GMT -5
Why is it that I never see a post about an aftermarket power cable making said component sound worse? The same reason you never see a post where after "speaker break-in" the speaker sounds worse. Both are batting a perfect thousand. As for power cords I have noted several highly regarded ones from AudioQuest and Monster which had a verifiable and repeatedly negative impact on the sound quality of my system. If a cord doesn’t sound better (like any other cable interconnect or speaker cable etc) it gets promptly returned for a full refund. |
|
|
|
Post by socketman on Dec 31, 2017 19:23:01 GMT -5
The same reason you never see a post where after "speaker break-in" the speaker sounds worse. Both are batting a perfect thousand. As for power cords I have noted several highly regarded ones from AudioQuest and Monster which had a verifiable and repeatedly negative impact on the sound quality of my system. If a cord doesn’t sound better (like any other cable interconnect or speaker cable etc) it gets promptly returned for a full refund. Have any electrical measurements of inductance etc been made on these cords that are highly regarded yet cause poor sound, and or been compared to cord you feel improve your system. Not trying to flame here, just want to know since my mind is more science based . Imagine if i ported my cylinder heads but never put it on a dyno or took it ot a track i would have only my azz dyno to rely on and that is just not good enough. I may think its quicker but is it really,. |
|
|
|
Post by RichGuy on Dec 31, 2017 21:06:07 GMT -5
Imagine if i ported my cylinder heads but never put it on a dyno or took it ot a track i would have only my azz dyno to rely on and that is just not good enough. I may think its quicker but is it really,. If you ported your cylinder heads and your azz dyno couldn't confirm the power difference, you did not do much of a port job. BTW, I do put engines on a dyno and on the track and have made air cooled VW bug engines that in stock form produced 50 HP produce over 250 HP. |
|
|
|
Post by socketman on Dec 31, 2017 21:24:34 GMT -5
Even if I can feel a difference i need to quantify it. No need to get defensive i just want to know if this strictly a listener decision or if its backed up with science. I have trouble believing you can hear something that cant be measured. If the answer is no then its no thats perfectly fine. Most everyone has an engine story , i work as mechanic and for me its not about what i can buy so i can be the fastest its about what i can do with what limited funds i have.But thats all off topic i was just trying to draw a reference not get into a arguement.
|
|
|
|
Post by simpleman68 on Dec 31, 2017 21:31:19 GMT -5
As for power cords I have noted several highly regarded ones from AudioQuest and Monster which had a verifiable and repeatedly negative impact on the sound quality of my system. If a cord doesn’t sound better (like any other cable interconnect or speaker cable etc) it gets promptly returned for a full refund. Have any electrical measurements of inductance etc been made on these cords that are highly regarded yet cause poor sound, and or been compared to cord you feel improve your system. Not trying to flame here, just want to know since my mind is more science based . Imagine if i ported my cylinder heads but never put it on a dyno or took it ot a track i would have only my azz dyno to rely on and that is just not good enough. I may think its quicker but is it really,. Just like audio equipment, combo is critical. I've seen guys port their heads to monster capacity (70+ cc on an LSX motor say) and they lose power over a smaller port job in the mid 60s range. They lost velocity and/or had too much lift on the cam. I've also seen guys put 1 7/8" headers on a cam only car and lose power on the bottom end due to scavenging. The more I play with this hobby, the more I realize combo is everything. The same wires may yield differing results due to differing combos. When Jeff brought over the Pangea power cords for the Legacy internal amps, I was all set to hand him an "I told ya so" and he sat quiet while I made all the same adjustments to the DSP that he did because of all the extra bass that was now present with the new cords. Alternately, I get a laugh out of folks that spend 4 figures + on power cords. Scott |
|
|
|
Post by socketman on Dec 31, 2017 21:48:45 GMT -5
I guess it cant hurt to try just for the sake of conformity , now people have expectation bias but i fear i have the oposite what ever that is. It will have to be irrefutable or i may dismiss it. Its hard being me.
|
|
|
|
Post by sahmen on Dec 31, 2017 23:41:25 GMT -5
people have expectation bias but i fear i have the oposite what ever that is. It will have to be irrefutable or i may dismiss it. it means you're always inclined, by default, or almost, to expect other people to be dupes or victims of expectation bias..." In other words others are "guilty" of expectation bias until proven "innocent," (which is conditional upon the existence of the "irrefutable" scientific proof you require) And that, right there, is your own expectation bias...  You do not have the "opposite" of expectation bias; what you have is the biased expectation (or the expectation bias) of the ubiquity of expectation bias, and its almost omnipotent influence upon others... Okay, I am saying this partly in jest, but do you think there might be some grain of validity somewhere in there? My own view is that you're right that expectation bias is inevitably present everywhere, and that no-one can really escape it... However, to my mind, that hardly means that every or even most perceptions of difference (particularly, improvements in sq) from audio purchases are necessarily wrong... Or that people are incapable of seeing past their own expectation bias, when an audio equipment they expected to be great turns out to be subpar, or to fall short of their expectations... Just think of the number of audio purchases that are made with great expectations, but returned within 30 days because of one kind of disappointment or another, most of which we lump together under the heading of "buyer's remorse." I do not have any specific data to back this up, but I am willing to bet that a lot of that buyer's remorse comes from people whose "expectation biases" about their purchases were not fulfilled. So I suspect that xpectation biases may not be always as clever or as some omnipotent as some skeptics or "objectivists" make it out to be... Okay, I did not expect or intend this rant to be this long... Sorry if I have sounded too longwinded  |
|
You do not have the "opposite" of expectation bias; what you have is the biased expectation (or the expectation bias) of the ubiquity of expectation bias, and its almost omnipotent influence upon others... 
