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Post by socketman on Dec 31, 2017 23:57:52 GMT -5
To the question: "Okay, I am saying this partly in jest, but do you think there might be some grain of validity somewhere in there?" my honest response is no ,it just seems unfathomable to me,wire is wire providing its the correct gauge and material .That was not a rant really ,just an expression of your view on the subject and i dont take too much personally , i like to hear other points of view even if they dont match my own. And im also fine with people getting more enjoyment in whatever way they choose it is their money after all , I remain unconvinced . My buyers remorse is mostly when i get something and realize that it is missing a feature i know i wanted or i see a tv that looks better in that moment than the one i just bought. When i bought the XMC-1 i had no expectation that i was aware of but i had no doubt i had spent my money wisely.
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Post by RichGuy on Jan 1, 2018 0:09:34 GMT -5
To the question: "Okay, I am saying this partly in jest, but do you think there might be some grain of validity somewhere in there?" my honest response is no ,it just seems unfathomable to me,wire is wire providing its the correct gauge and material .That was not a rant really ,just an expression of your view on the subject and i dont take too much personally , i like to hear other points of view even if they dont match my own. And im also fine with people getting more enjoyment in whatever way they choose it is their money after all , I remain unconvinced . My buyers remorse is mostly when i get something and realize that it is missing a feature i know i wanted or i see a tv that looks better in that moment than the one i just bought. When i bought the XMC-1 i had no expectation that i was aware of but i had no doubt i had spent my money wisely. Think of it like this, wire is wire like an engine header is an engine header. Size, shape, twists, material and coatings can all come into play for the final performance outcome and there is not one that is best for everything. |
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Post by socketman on Jan 1, 2018 0:14:40 GMT -5
have you seen what Freiburger and Finigan have done to a headers and tested them on the dyno , i know it shocked me. Obviously to a gear head 2 inch headers on a 350 with a 220 cam and stock heads is retarded but i just dont see the relationship to a cable that is only 2 feet long and its not getting hot or tripping a breaker. I just dont see how the electricity can come from 30 miles away from the damn through miles of cable ,transformer station the cheap wiring used in most homes and be affected by a 3 foot power cord, just not logical.
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Post by RichGuy on Jan 1, 2018 0:50:49 GMT -5
The power coming from the power company is very dirty noisy and is very high voltage traveling across huge gauge power lines coated for corrosion protection but usually the cables that are up on poles are not even insulated (that's one reason never to touch a downed power line). Just before the power enters your home the voltage is transformed down to your normal voltage aprox 120 volts. The wires in your walls are just that in your walls NOT running near your equipment or right by the other cables in your system.
This is where a nice power conditioner can help better the power that is coming out of your walls and shielded power cables can help keep any noise interference caused by the wires running in close proximity of your equipment and other cables in your system.
Personally I don't feel power cables have as much effect on sound quality as other cables (speaker cables and interconnects) however I feel with power cables preventive measures of noise contamination to your system is what is most important with power cables.
Power cables and interconnects can benefit from good shielding, while speaker cables are generally not shielded but cable designs like twisted pair and others can help by acting like shielding to protect them from noise interference.
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Post by socketman on Jan 1, 2018 1:02:55 GMT -5
I dont disagree with any of what you just said. In my car stereo installations i run power and ground under the car and my interconnects down the middle inside. For home i keep things as seperated as best i can, though there seems to be a lot of cord sex when im not in the room. I use balanced cables to my amps (overkill) good surge protection and quality cable for everything you talked about but i just wont spend 3g on a 3 meter cable. The biggest improvement i have ever seen was moving out of an old house with crappy old wiring and questionable connections. Someone on here talked about a fairly inexpensive power cable i may try just because. I will get my son to switch it out without telling me and i will cover the wires so i dont know when he has done it. We shall see  |
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Post by RichGuy on Jan 1, 2018 1:24:08 GMT -5
I never said spending a fortune on any cable was necessary. I make my own power cables for around $40 or so depending on length, I have cables from about 2 ft to 20 ft in length. I'd personally consider these as good as it gets. I use quality Marinco connectors and Belden shielded wire for power cables. Yes even $40.00 is expensive to most people for a power cable but to me it was well worth it.
I am not saying that there's not a lot of ridiculous over pricing and snake oil in wiring, all I am saying is that cables can make a difference (both good and bad), it's not something everyone needs or wants to do but neither are amps, pre amps, processors, DAC's, etc.
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Post by socketman on Jan 1, 2018 1:45:41 GMT -5
Okay but if your 40 dollar cable makes a difference doesnt it stand to reason that a $400 cable is better . Its a lot like speakers, they say a speaker performs above its paygrade , but is the next step up worth it where does it end. I guess what i am saying is if i only get 5hp from my headers im not buying them, they better be good for 30. Honestly now im just messin with ya.This is crazy hobby and we all have to know when its good enough.
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Post by pknaz on Jan 1, 2018 1:52:50 GMT -5
If I'm ever to the point where I can hear a difference in power cables....I'm quitting this hobby.
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Post by lehighvalleyjeff on Jan 1, 2018 1:59:33 GMT -5
As for power cords I have noted several highly regarded ones from AudioQuest and Monster which had a verifiable and repeatedly negative impact on the sound quality of my system. If a cord doesn’t sound better (like any other cable interconnect or speaker cable etc) it gets promptly returned for a full refund. Have any electrical measurements of inductance etc been made on these cords that are highly regarded yet cause poor sound, and or been compared to cord you feel improve your system. Not trying to flame here, just want to know since my mind is more science based . Imagine if i ported my cylinder heads but never put it on a dyno or took it ot a track i would have only my azz dyno to rely on and that is just not good enough. I may think its quicker but is it really,. While I think your question is valid my honest answer is “I have no idea.” I’ve been adding things in and out of various audio systems and to my ears in my system if something sounds more enjoyable or natural sounding in my listening spot then I give it a thumbs up. The same criteria is used and more times than not I give a thumbs down (in my system to my ears on my gear setup in my room). I haven’t found a degree or unit of measurement to quantify how wide the soundstage is or does the guitar note blur with the singer’s voice. Or a way to quantify the amount of air around a decaying high note or the believability of a symphony orchestra. But all of these are in my opinion the criteria when I’m listening to or evaluating a new component in my system. And my preferences might be radically different from somebody else’s. You see we all hear and perceive things differently. It’s the beauty of the hobby. Based upon my budget limitations and personal listening preferences there are countless manufacturers offering gear with similar measurements that sound very different. If you can’t hear the difference between one piece and another that’s ok. On the other hand there are many of us who can and that’s ok too. But to just say there are no sonic differences in cables is just inaccurate at best. Anything in the signal path can (not always does) potentially change (better or worse) or influence the sonic results. The degree of influence might be marginal in one system and profound in another. It’s a fact. Anyone who needs a demonstration is welcome to PM me for a private in demonstration in northeast Pennsylvania. The Hifi shop down the street sells some damn expensive gear and I promise you that the only reason people spend the money they do there is because the owner has been evaluating and tweaking systems for over 50 years and can easily demonstrate the audible differences between speaker cable A vs B. He has done the same for me with power cords and even... Yes, phono cartridges. Measurements are only part of the story in audio. |
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Post by leonski on Jan 1, 2018 2:23:52 GMT -5
If I'm ever to the point where I can hear a difference in power cables....I'm quitting this hobby. After the Demo, can I have first shot at buying your stuff? |
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Post by leonski on Jan 1, 2018 2:29:59 GMT -5
Okay but if your 40 dollar cable makes a difference doesnt it stand to reason that a $400 cable is better . Its a lot like speakers, they say a speaker performs above its paygrade , but is the next step up worth it where does it end. I guess what i am saying is if i only get 5hp from my headers im not buying them, they better be good for 30. Honestly now im just messin with ya.This is crazy hobby and we all have to know when its good enough. Not necessarily. I believe the 'hits above its weight' theory is not accurate. IF something is that much better than other stuff at its price point, you'll see a price rise next go-round. Value, which is really subjective, is certanly up to YOU to decide. If you think you got a good deal, than so beit. But nobody is selling a 10k$ system for 1/2 that and staying in business. Are there class leading pieces at given price points? Sure. For YOU. I'm not about to recommend any particular piece of gear. This is a good rule for me, since I dont' have any idea what most questioners value in a system or desire. I could recommend what I like, but who cares? I've not compared systems and ears with anyone here in order to provide a base for such recommendations. This is definately NOT to say that it's all 'equal' But you are the final judge of SQ and value. |
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Post by RichGuy on Jan 1, 2018 2:33:08 GMT -5
Okay but if your 40 dollar cable makes a difference doesnt it stand to reason that a $400 cable is better . The main difference between my $40 dollar cable and a $400 cable is I'm not charging myself $360 to make it.  The main difference between my $40 cable and a $6,000 cable is I'm not freaking stupid! |
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Post by Talley on Jan 1, 2018 2:48:33 GMT -5
There will be some differences. Depending. Overall though you need your entire system up to par... nobody has that. Buy a furman 2400 and be done with it
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Post by Talley on Jan 1, 2018 2:50:18 GMT -5
The power coming from the power company is very dirty noisy and is very high voltage traveling across huge gauge power lines coated for corrosion protection but usually the cables that are up on poles are not even insulated (that's one reason never to touch a downed power line). Just before the power enters your home the voltage is transformed down to your normal voltage aprox 120 volts. The wires in your walls are just that in your walls NOT running near your equipment or right by the other cables in your system. This is where a nice power conditioner can help better the power that is coming out of your walls and shielded power cables can help keep any noise interference caused by the wires running in close proximity of your equipment and other cables in your system. Personally I don't feel power cables have as much effect on sound quality as other cables (speaker cables and interconnects) however I feel with power cables preventive measures of noise contamination to your system is what is most important with power cables. Power cables and interconnects can benefit from good shielding, while speaker cables are generally not shielded but cable designs like twisted pair and others can help by acting like shielding to protect them from noise interference. Unless you feed your system with an isolation transformer. Then you are disconnected from that main line and are regenerating your own system. Again... the only proven way for clean power. Also... be sure shields are only connected at one end. Or you'll create ground loops and/or induce voltage onto the ground system and that is more negative than anything. |
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Post by RichGuy on Jan 1, 2018 3:11:12 GMT -5
The power coming from the power company is very dirty noisy and is very high voltage traveling across huge gauge power lines coated for corrosion protection but usually the cables that are up on poles are not even insulated (that's one reason never to touch a downed power line). Just before the power enters your home the voltage is transformed down to your normal voltage aprox 120 volts. The wires in your walls are just that in your walls NOT running near your equipment or right by the other cables in your system. This is where a nice power conditioner can help better the power that is coming out of your walls and shielded power cables can help keep any noise interference caused by the wires running in close proximity of your equipment and other cables in your system. Personally I don't feel power cables have as much effect on sound quality as other cables (speaker cables and interconnects) however I feel with power cables preventive measures of noise contamination to your system is what is most important with power cables. Power cables and interconnects can benefit from good shielding, while speaker cables are generally not shielded but cable designs like twisted pair and others can help by acting like shielding to protect them from noise interference. Unless you feed your system with an isolation transformer. Then you are disconnected from that main line and are regenerating your own system. Again... the only proven way for clean power. Basically much the same as a power conditioner, I auditioned many power conditioners and power strips ranging in price from $100 to an almost $3,000 dollar top of the line Furman (which I had an opportunity to buy for around $800) Some made improvements while some had poor effects on the sound quality. I choose my PF-60 as it was my favorite and my system sounded it's best connected to it. Also... be sure shields are only connected at one end. Or you'll create ground loops and/or induce voltage onto the ground system and that is more negative than anything. Of course, this is the proper way to shield your cables and why many cables have the directional arrows which confuse many people. |
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Post by sahmen on Jan 1, 2018 9:05:31 GMT -5
If I'm ever to the point where I can hear a difference in power cables....I'm quitting this hobby. Wow, you will "quit" even if that "difference" is a good one?... even if it is making the music from your XPA-1 Gen 2s sound like butter on pancakes... ?   Personally, I wouldn't know what I would do at a moment like that, if I were in your position, but the last thing that would ever cross my mind is "quitting." My hungry and insatiable "expectation biases" would simply not allow it! |
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Post by sahmen on Jan 1, 2018 9:12:28 GMT -5
Okay but if your 40 dollar cable makes a difference doesnt it stand to reason that a $400 cable is better . The main difference between my $40 dollar cable and a $400 cable is I'm not charging myself $360 to make it. The main difference between my $40 cable and a $6,000 cable is I'm not freaking stupid! If there is one thing I truly regret in this hobby, it is my inability to DIY any of my own gear, including cables, and the fact that I can't ever seem to muster the courage to try even something as simple as soldering, even though I have purchased some great soldering kits from the web a couple of times. Sigh! |
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Post by RichGuy on Jan 1, 2018 10:30:18 GMT -5
If there is one thing I truly regret in this hobby, it is my inability to DIY any of my own gear, including cables, and the fact that I can't ever seem to muster the courage to try even something as simple as soldering, even though I have purchased some great soldering kits from the web a couple of times. Sigh! That's one thing about power cables you don't solder them, all that's needed is a screw driver and something to cut the wire, a scissors will do as basics. They are very easy to make and a good way to start for a DIY beginner. A heat gun would also be good if you want to dress your cables up to look nice with TechFlex braided sleeving and heat shrink tubing. It's not necessary but can make them look very nice. You can usually get a nice heat gun at Harbor Freight Tools for between $7.99 and $14.99 depending on the current sale. You can also make excellent speaker cables, no soldering needed. I do solder other cables I make, interconnects, trigger & IR cables but not power or speaker cables which are super easy to make. Here's an example of a speaker cable I made before I added the banana's.  |
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Post by socketman on Jan 1, 2018 13:54:38 GMT -5
RIchguy, please dont tell me you bi-wire too.
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Post by RichGuy on Jan 1, 2018 14:23:30 GMT -5
RIchguy, please dont tell me you bi-wire too. Yep, I like bi-wire, I use Mogami 2921 wire and love this wire. High quality, excellent twisted design, pure OFC copper, super flexible, neutral uncolored with a sound quality sometimes referred to as HD because of the detail and clarity it brings.   |
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