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Post by davidl81 on Jan 24, 2018 15:16:41 GMT -5
I have a Gen 2 XPA2 right now running my Mirage OMD-28’s as part of a home theater setup. I have been thinking about going Mono Block (looking at a pair of XPA-1s Gen 2) but these DR-2s have peaked my interest. Space wise it would be better to have the one amp as opposed to two amps. Here are my questions:
1) Would the DR-2 have a big difference over my XPA-2
2) Would the XPA-1 pair be a big difference compared to the DR-2? Spec wise they look pretty close.
Most of my use is for home theater and I do not expect to see a big difference there, but I am starting to get more into stereo music and I feel like the XPA-2 just does not have enough head room to really drive the OMD-28’s
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Post by leonski on Jan 24, 2018 18:30:04 GMT -5
Amounts to rearranging deck chairs.
No big difference, mostly a 'sidewiays' move, any way you go.
What are your system goals? What about the current system do you NOT like?
What makes you think that you lack headroom given the XPA-2 is 250x2 @8ohms?
The OMD speakers you have are listed in the specs as 87db sensitivie.
What are your listening priorities? (not jazz or rock, but what do you Listen for in music?)
To get the last 'nth' of performance, I'd do a very detailed setup / adjustment of speaker and positioning.
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Post by Gary Cook on Jan 24, 2018 18:50:55 GMT -5
There is no doubt that an XPA-1 Gen 2 will in general sound "better" than an XPA-2 Gen 2, but there are other monoblock advantages to be considered. Absolutely zero cross talk between channels. Quad differential circuitry that facilitates a balanced all the way through the system connection. The ability to locate each XPA-1 right next to it's respective speaker, hence very short speaker cables. Plus of course the XPA-1 Gen 2 can run up to 60 watts in Class A.
Is there enough of an overall difference to justify the change, my experience is yes, but in the end it is your call to make.
Cheers
Gary
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Post by davidl81 on Jan 24, 2018 19:47:19 GMT -5
I guess what I am looking for in the listening experience is to feel as though I am at the concert I am listening to if that makes any sense. Right now I just don’t get that feeling when I’m stereo mode. It may be in large part to my AVR as I have not been impressed by Audisey at all. I will eventually get an XMC 1 (or 2 now I guess) but I won’t purchase that till Emotiva has the Atmos support. My thinking is I can buy the two XPA1s and then sell my XPA2 and net cost to me will be about $1000. At that point I will know without a doubt that I have all of the amp I will ever need. Then it will just be the AVR that could be the issue. Plus I get to join the monoblock society and that has to be worth something.
The reason I feel as though headroom is not enough on the XPA2 is just seeing how far the leds go when I’m listening in stereo at higher volumes. The speakers are rated for a 250W amp and my thought is by putting a 500W amp on the speakers I would never be pushing the amp that hard. But I do admit that my logic is pretty questionable on this lol.
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Post by garbulky on Jan 24, 2018 20:30:05 GMT -5
The XPA-2 is very close in sound to the XPA-1 gen 2. Now the do sound different and the XPA-1 gen 2 is a bit better - enough that I consider the price worth it. However it's very subtle and I don't know if it will be that obvious in movies. The LED's are not linear. It's easy to make a bunch light up at the lower end. The OMD's are 6 ohms which means the XPA-2 is pushing more than 250 watts and less than 600 watts. Somewhere halfway between the two
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Post by creimes on Jan 24, 2018 20:32:08 GMT -5
Having owned a Marantz AV7702 processor I would say try and get your hands on a Sherbourn PT-7020C4 until the XMC-1 you want is released, if you can find one at a good price you test the waters and could always resell it. The reason I say this is I owned one and sod it to move to the AV7702 and I was let down in terms of dynamics for music so I sold the Marantz and found another PT-7020C4. I have a friend who went from a AV7702MKII to a Anthem MRX1120 used as a pre/pro and noticed the same thing, he finds the Anthem much better for 2ch music. I honesty found the AV7702 lifeless for 2ch music, surround for movies wasn't as noticeable but 2ch was a big difference for me. All in all I wouldn't be blaming the XPA-2, I've owned it and the XPA-5 and now the Sherbourn PA 7-350 beast and I can tell little if any difference in terms of sound other than the headroom which any of those amps would make my speakers go very loud haha. I would also consider the AVM60 as a pre\pro, I'm really liking my Anthem MRX310 and ARC. Chad I guess what I am looking for in the listening experience is to feel as though I am at the concert I am listening to if that makes any sense. Right now I just don’t get that feeling when I’m stereo mode. It may be in large part to my AVR as I have not been impressed by Audisey at all. I will eventually get an XMC 1 (or 2 now I guess) but I won’t purchase that till Emotiva has the Atmos support. My thinking is I can buy the two XPA1s and then sell my XPA2 and net cost to me will be about $1000. At that point I will know without a doubt that I have all of the amp I will ever need. Then it will just be the AVR that could be the issue. Plus I get to join the monoblock society and that has to be worth something. The reason I feel as though headroom is not enough on the XPA2 is just seeing how far the leds go when I’m listening in stereo at higher volumes. The speakers are rated for a 250W amp and my thought is by putting a 500W amp on the speakers I would never be pushing the amp that hard. But I do admit that my logic is pretty questionable on this lol. |
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Post by leonski on Jan 24, 2018 20:57:31 GMT -5
I guess what I am looking for in the listening experience is to feel as though I am at the concert I am listening to if that makes any sense. Right now I just don’t get that feeling when I’m stereo mode. It may be in large part to my AVR as I have not been impressed by Audisey at all. I will eventually get an XMC 1 (or 2 now I guess) but I won’t purchase that till Emotiva has the Atmos support. My thinking is I can buy the two XPA1s and then sell my XPA2 and net cost to me will be about $1000. At that point I will know without a doubt that I have all of the amp I will ever need. Then it will just be the AVR that could be the issue. Plus I get to join the monoblock society and that has to be worth something. The reason I feel as though headroom is not enough on the XPA2 is just seeing how far the leds go when I’m listening in stereo at higher volumes. The speakers are rated for a 250W amp and my thought is by putting a 500W amp on the speakers I would never be pushing the amp that hard. But I do admit that my logic is pretty questionable on this lol. Speakers don't have watts. That is generally a bogus number. Use your ears to determine distortion. Speakers also change Electrically, and not for the better, as they get hot during higher powered use. I believe there are at least 3 ways to rate speaker watt 'capacity' which is what is really meant by 'speaker watts'. www.prestonelectronics.com/audio/Speakers.htmI can't find, offhand, a link to the actual standards. The seperation you perceive is Source Limited. Having monos with poor material will still be poor seperation. Any reasonable design will provide all the seperation you can perceive. And the resistance added by 10 feet V 2 feet of speaker wire is negligible, give that the speakers will be many times the resistance OF the additional wire. Have you addressed room setup and speaker location? That's cheap and while sometimes not 'easy' is a way forward without getting into equipment swaps. |
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Post by garbulky on Jan 24, 2018 23:59:12 GMT -5
I guess what I am looking for in the listening experience is to feel as though I am at the concert I am listening to if that makes any sense. Right now I just don’t get that feeling when I’m stereo mode. It may be in large part to my AVR as I have not been impressed by Audisey at all. I will eventually get an XMC 1 (or 2 now I guess) but I won’t purchase that till Emotiva has the Atmos support. My thinking is I can buy the two XPA1s and then sell my XPA2 and net cost to me will be about $1000. At that point I will know without a doubt that I have all of the amp I will ever need. Then it will just be the AVR that could be the issue. Plus I get to join the monoblock society and that has to be worth something. The reason I feel as though headroom is not enough on the XPA2 is just seeing how far the leds go when I’m listening in stereo at higher volumes. The speakers are rated for a 250W amp and my thought is by putting a 500W amp on the speakers I would never be pushing the amp that hard. But I do admit that my logic is pretty questionable on this lol. Speakers don't have watts. That is generally a bogus number. Use your ears to determine distortion. Speakers also change Electrically, and not for the better, as they get hot during higher powered use. I believe there are at least 3 ways to rate speaker watt 'capacity' which is what is really meant by 'speaker watts'. www.prestonelectronics.com/audio/Speakers.htmI can't find, offhand, a link to the actual standards. The seperation you perceive is Source Limited. Having monos with poor material will still be poor seperation. Any reasonable design will provide all the seperation you can perceive. And the resistance added by 10 feet V 2 feet of speaker wire is negligible, give that the speakers will be many times the resistance OF the additional wire. Have you addressed room setup and speaker location? That's cheap and while sometimes not 'easy' is a way forward without getting into equipment swaps. This is true. Room setup/acoustics can make dynamics sound poor. |
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Post by assy74 on Jan 25, 2018 0:26:11 GMT -5
I am wondering the same thing as you! Of course it will give you a good upgrade  if it wasn't they would not make them! Headroom is never wrong..... Big Dan says the dr is a game changer..... That probably means better spec ways there is little difference between dr 1 and 2, but dr1 is same price as xpa1.... So the question is probably dr1 or dr2 |
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Post by Gary Cook on Jan 25, 2018 0:55:28 GMT -5
I am wondering the same thing as you! Of course it will give you a good upgrade if it wasn't they would not make them! Headroom is never wrong..... Big Dan says the dr is a game changer..... That probably means better spec ways there is little difference between dr 1 and 2, but dr1 is same price as xpa1.... So the question is probably dr1 or dr2 Hmmmmmmm #1, SM PS in the XPA-DR1 versus linear PS in the XPA-1 Gen 2  Hmmmmmmm #2, 60 watts of Class A in the XPA-1 Gen 2 versus ....................  Cheers Gary |
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Post by davidl81 on Jan 25, 2018 9:01:58 GMT -5
I guess what I am looking for in the listening experience is to feel as though I am at the concert I am listening to if that makes any sense. Right now I just don’t get that feeling when I’m stereo mode. It may be in large part to my AVR as I have not been impressed by Audisey at all. I will eventually get an XMC 1 (or 2 now I guess) but I won’t purchase that till Emotiva has the Atmos support. My thinking is I can buy the two XPA1s and then sell my XPA2 and net cost to me will be about $1000. At that point I will know without a doubt that I have all of the amp I will ever need. Then it will just be the AVR that could be the issue. Plus I get to join the monoblock society and that has to be worth something. The reason I feel as though headroom is not enough on the XPA2 is just seeing how far the leds go when I’m listening in stereo at higher volumes. The speakers are rated for a 250W amp and my thought is by putting a 500W amp on the speakers I would never be pushing the amp that hard. But I do admit that my logic is pretty questionable on this lol. Speakers don't have watts. That is generally a bogus number. Use your ears to determine distortion. Speakers also change Electrically, and not for the better, as they get hot during higher powered use. I believe there are at least 3 ways to rate speaker watt 'capacity' which is what is really meant by 'speaker watts'. www.prestonelectronics.com/audio/Speakers.htmI can't find, offhand, a link to the actual standards. The seperation you perceive is Source Limited. Having monos with poor material will still be poor seperation. Any reasonable design will provide all the seperation you can perceive. And the resistance added by 10 feet V 2 feet of speaker wire is negligible, give that the speakers will be many times the resistance OF the additional wire. Have you addressed room setup and speaker location? That's cheap and while sometimes not 'easy' is a way forward without getting into equipment swaps. I will play around with speaker placement this weekend and see if I can get it to make a difference. I will also mess with the AVR and maybe reset audyssey. I may just turn off aduyssey and play around with the AVR that way. I was reading the thread about the XMC Gen 3 last night and while it sounds perfect for what I want the reality is that it is not out yet and it may not be available for 3 months to 1 year. Seems like from what I am reading on this post is that I should be okay with the amps I have now so just upgrading my amps may not really give me any benefit. I'll mess around this weekend and let everyone know how it goes. |
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Post by davidl81 on Jan 25, 2018 9:08:47 GMT -5
I am wondering the same thing as you! Of course it will give you a good upgrade if it wasn't they would not make them! Headroom is never wrong..... Big Dan says the dr is a game changer..... That probably means better spec ways there is little difference between dr 1 and 2, but dr1 is same price as xpa1.... So the question is probably dr1 or dr2 Hmmmmmmm #1, SM PS in the XPA-DR1 versus linear PS in the XPA-1 Gen 2 Hmmmmmmm #2, 60 watts of Class A in the XPA-1 Gen 2 versus .................... Cheers Gary Cost is a slight concern to my set up. If I buy two DR1's I am looking at $2400. I can buy two used XPA-1 Gen2 for $1600 so that's still a $800 difference. In the grand scheme of things $800 is not a huge difference but it is tangible. Also given my setup I really doubt the DR1 would sound any better than the XPA1 (XPA1 may sound better given Class A power?). I was only considering the DR-2 because price wise it is about the same as buying the two used XPA-1's and it would be one less amp for me to find space for in the media cabinet. My gut tells me the the jump from the XPA-2 to the DR-2 would be fairly small, and the jump from the DR-2 to the XPA-1 pairs would also be fairly small. So either I just go from the XPA-2 to a pair of XPA-1's or I do as suggested above and focus on speaker placement and AVR setup then look into amplification. |
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Post by rbk123 on Jan 25, 2018 9:18:02 GMT -5
You'll notice a much bigger difference upgrading your speakers or preamp than you will your amp. Those areas and room treatments are much better use of your $$ than any "game changing" amp.
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Post by davidl81 on Jan 25, 2018 10:07:21 GMT -5
You'll notice a much bigger difference upgrading your speakers or preamp than you will your amp. Those areas and room treatments are much better use of your $$ than any "game changing" amp. Oh no please don't mention speakers! The wife will kill me if I buy more speakers! I can get away with amps and AVR's, but speakers are where she draws the line. |
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Post by novisnick on Jan 25, 2018 10:10:57 GMT -5
You'll notice a much bigger difference upgrading your speakers or preamp than you will your amp. Those areas and room treatments are much better use of your $$ than any "game changing" amp. Oh no please don't mention speakers! The wife will kill me if I buy more speakers! I can get away with amps and AVR's, but speakers are where she draws the line. I hear ya, a black box is a black box! She wouldn’t notice that so much, speakers are a totally different story. 😁 |
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Post by leonski on Jan 25, 2018 14:37:53 GMT -5
Aimlessly rearranging is NOT the plan. You should START with some kind of plan and be prepared to send the wife and others OUT shopping or to a triple feature. Maybe get a buddy over to help with the heavy lifting. www.cardas.com/room_setup_main.phpLink it to the CARDAS website for room setup. Read thru the material before starting any changes. NOTE: If you are 'spouse limited' in such changes, give up now and ForGet It. It is only by the weirdest coincidence that speakers and a system sounds best where the decor makes it look best. |
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Post by davidl81 on Jan 25, 2018 14:58:19 GMT -5
Aimlessly rearranging is NOT the plan. You should START with some kind of plan and be prepared to send the wife and others OUT shopping or to a triple feature. Maybe get a buddy over to help with the heavy lifting. www.cardas.com/room_setup_main.phpLink it to the CARDAS website for room setup. Read thru the material before starting any changes. NOTE: If you are 'spouse limited' in such changes, give up now and ForGet It. It is only by the weirdest coincidence that speakers and a system sounds best where the decor makes it look best. Thanks for the link. I will go through this today. Luckily its in a media room so aesthetics are not a huge deal. The only issue could be the speakers getting in the way of the screen, but I may be able to raise the screen up a few inches. Here is a pic of my front setup. Attachments:
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Post by teaman on Jan 25, 2018 15:18:19 GMT -5
Hey David, I have two pair of Klipsch KLF-30's set up with XPA-2's (both Gen 1) and they could fill an auditorium with sound well below hitting reference level on the dial.
To be honest, I can make due with the XPA-2 Gen 2 in a home theater set up but not for music. The Gen 2 with lower gain leaves me wanting. Even in HT I wish I was running Gen 1 all around, huge difference in dynamic punch the Gen 1 puts out over the Gen 2 counterpart.
I would also add that the Mirage may be contributing here. They are only rated around 86db if I read that correctly, although the drivers are small enough to balance that out...one would think.
Tim
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Post by davidl81 on Jan 25, 2018 18:57:53 GMT -5
Hey David, I have two pair of Klipsch KLF-30's set up with XPA-2's (both Gen 1) and they could fill an auditorium with sound well below hitting reference level on the dial. To be honest, I can make due with the XPA-2 Gen 2 in a home theater set up but not for music. The Gen 2 with lower gain leaves me wanting. Even in HT I wish I was running Gen 1 all around, huge difference in dynamic punch the Gen 1 puts out over the Gen 2 counterpart. I would also add that the Mirage may be contributing here. They are only rated around 86db if I read that correctly, although the drivers are small enough to balance that out...one would think. Tim Yeah the 86db has me worried some, thus my thinking about Mono blocks. |
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Post by leonski on Jan 25, 2018 23:04:22 GMT -5
Why does 86db have you worried? More bothersome is that Sound And Vision estimated 83db, which is quite a bit lower, as these things go. www.soundandvision.com/content/mirage-omd-28-surround-speaker-system-measurementsBasically, add 3db per doubling of power AND a fudge facotr for room gain. 2 speakers w/same power is louder, again. In any event, I doubt that the roughly 300 a side of the XPA-2 (6 ohm estimate) will leave you wanting. I'm not going to bother with a calculator, so I'll content myself with 4 doublings of power, to 16 watts With a 10db crest factor gives 160 watt peaks which is well within your current setup AND producing 108db peaks. For one speaker. Add room gain and a 2nd speaker and I'm sure your're well over 110db with 3db or greater power left over above THAT. Can the REST of the speakers keep up with that kind of output? I'm sure your're running out of power and need KiloWatt Monos to make it happen. Just be sure to plug everything into a single 15 amp circuit, to make sure you get the most out of it. |
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if it wasn't they would not make them!
